Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
+15 WW if they raze a city of yours
A new civ3 investigation needed: War Weariness
- Thread starter Hygro
- Start date
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
It looks like a small penalty if they capture your capital (+2?).
In both tests, I had 1 warrior in their territory, then built a city far away, and then gave them a unit next to 1 of these 2 cities.
In the first test, they razed the size 1 city and I hit 30WW at 3150 B.C.
In the second test, I let them capture my capital, jumping my palace to the other city. This caused me to hit 30WW one turn earlier at 3200 B.C. The city did also starve down, obviously. So there is a small penalty either from them capturing the capital, or because they are starving your citizens.
In both tests, I had 1 warrior in their territory, then built a city far away, and then gave them a unit next to 1 of these 2 cities.
In the first test, they razed the size 1 city and I hit 30WW at 3150 B.C.
In the second test, I let them capture my capital, jumping my palace to the other city. This caused me to hit 30WW one turn earlier at 3200 B.C. The city did also starve down, obviously. So there is a small penalty either from them capturing the capital, or because they are starving your citizens.
Brewster
stays crunchy in milk
Great work guys. I was hoping someone would look into the issue of war weariness as I have been having problems with it in my current game.
I've got two questions:
1) Is WW affected by mulitple wars with the same civ?
2) If WW is cummulative, how does it affect me if I go to war against a civ I have not been at war with?
eg. I have been at war with a civ for a total of 50 turns (two different wars) and they declare again. The first turn of the third war sends my people into the streets to protest and I have to jack up the luxuries until I can finish off my opponent.
I've got two questions:
1) Is WW affected by mulitple wars with the same civ?
2) If WW is cummulative, how does it affect me if I go to war against a civ I have not been at war with?
eg. I have been at war with a civ for a total of 50 turns (two different wars) and they declare again. The first turn of the third war sends my people into the streets to protest and I have to jack up the luxuries until I can finish off my opponent.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
For this case, I believe from tests done in the past by other people, you need to be at peace with that particular civ for 20 consecutive turns, before the WW is completely forgotten (it dissapears while at peace, but can return when at war again). When and if a war starts back up again before the 20 turns, then the WW returns to the level it was at from the first war.
I haven't tested that either, but my guess would be if you were at war with multiple civs, then each civ would be kept track of separately, but are added together. So you may have 15WW from a war with 1 civ, and 20WW from another civ, so together that puts you over 30WW. If you sign peace with the first civ, then the 15WW would be taken off, so you would just have the 20WW from the second civ. But this is purely a guess, I haven't tested it. It would make sense that way, but you never know what those programmers are doing
. It may be possible that none of the WW disappears until you are at peace with everyone, I don't know.
TheNiceOne
Emperor
Great work Bamspeedy and DaveMcW, keep up the work. What about enemy units in your territory?
I want to comment the above, because the 54/45 is correct. The reason for this is that in a size 10 city without happiness improvements there would be 6 unhappy due to city size, and 5 unhappy due to WW. 6/11 = 54% and 5/11 = 45%.
You had enough improvements to counter 6 of the unhappy faces, but when you get more unhappiness than 6, there's no reason for the AI to consider the WW unhappiness any different than the crowding unhappiness.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
I stated in my 2nd post that I had an enemy warrior in my territory from 1075 B.C.-500 A.D. and suffered absolutely no war-weariness. I tried putting a stack of enemy spearman in my territory, but if there is no tiles to pillage, they all run back home, so that would be hard to test. I think that since I only need 1 unit in their territory to trigger WW, the same would apply to them (they only need 1 unit). And since that didn't happen, there isn't any WW penalties for enemies being in your territory, providing that they aren't pillaging, capturing workers, killing your units, etc.
TheNiceOne
Emperor
Sorry, I overlooked that. To test it further, create your land on another island than the enemy, and put their military units on your island. They will not be able to run back home then.
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
This is great, guys! Very good findings, indeed! 
I appreciate especially the news on Universal Suffrage and Police Stations. I had no idea how they affected WW earlier, but I always had US as a high priority. Now I'm not so sure. One more content citizen is not much at all.
I appreciate especially the news on Universal Suffrage and Police Stations. I had no idea how they affected WW earlier, but I always had US as a high priority. Now I'm not so sure. One more content citizen is not much at all.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
so 1 WW point is based on 1 turn of 1 soldier in enemy territory right?
Also, I once had a police station turn 5 unhappy people into 2 happy and 1 content, in a war against 1 enemy during a republican gov't, in case this means anything (almost like giving 5 happy faces-- a 4th and 5th luxery w/ marketplace). I would say if a 2 point police station does this much, than a 1 point US does a lot as well.
Also, I didn't know democracies just fell into anarchy like that. I thought a bunch of your cities had to be rioting constantly.
Also, I once had a police station turn 5 unhappy people into 2 happy and 1 content, in a war against 1 enemy during a republican gov't, in case this means anything (almost like giving 5 happy faces-- a 4th and 5th luxery w/ marketplace). I would say if a 2 point police station does this much, than a 1 point US does a lot as well.
Also, I didn't know democracies just fell into anarchy like that. I thought a bunch of your cities had to be rioting constantly.
This is great! Thanks. 
So what's the effect on war weariness of just capturing a city, as opposed to razing it?
Oh, and I can confirm Bamspeedy's conjecture about war weariness with two different civs being independently tracked. GOTM 17 I was at war with the Americans and Greece simultaneously, and war weariness was getting to be a problem. I made peace with America only, and the (evident) war weariness went away.
I can't say for sure if the numbers for the two civs were added together or not while they were both active, though.
Renata
So what's the effect on war weariness of just capturing a city, as opposed to razing it?Oh, and I can confirm Bamspeedy's conjecture about war weariness with two different civs being independently tracked. GOTM 17 I was at war with the Americans and Greece simultaneously, and war weariness was getting to be a problem. I made peace with America only, and the (evident) war weariness went away.
I can't say for sure if the numbers for the two civs were added together or not while they were both active, though.
Renata
Grille
panel insect
I'm surprised, too. So a 90-turn war will be democracy's fate.
I was guessing (enough) police stations and/or US were preventing anarchy.
Also, I thought the ww benefit of police stations (and US) was relative to the number of citizens. Or is it relative? (It would be 20% if the test city had always pop=10.)
Let me add some mix:
I don't have a handy reference to turns vs years, but I am sure I have been at war longer than 90 turns as a democracy. I have also had demo overthrown when every city large enough was in WLTK.
I am running a test now on trading, in a controlled environment.
Germany demanded a luxury (1640-- standard time scale.)
I refused, and they declared war. No adverse effects, and they are on a separate continent. No units sent over, either way.
When I sank a ship at sea, Russia joined via MPP, and Persia also declared war.
Persia sent a stack of riflemen to take my nearest border city... I picked them off as they came. No adverse effects. IE no WW.
When their offensive troops were gone, I invaded and took too cities (out of 7). No troops on foreign soil more than one turn. Made peace.
Meanwhile, Persia attacked for no apparent reason, from the other side. Perhaps they thought they had an opportunity, while I was engaged.
Incoming troops were defeated (Riflemen to attack...) Lost one Sipahu in one defense attack. No WW.
Eight turns. I took the two nearest cities in one stroke. No WW.
Began a march into enemy territoy -- 31 units. Arty, Infantry, Sipahu. First turn out, every city changed from WLTK. (40 cities)
Added 10% Lux, and they returned to WLTK next turn. Turn 10 since Persia declared war.
Two turns later, I approach Persopolis, and all cities drop out of WLTK. again.
Eight cities have serious unhappiness -- these are conquered Persian, formerly Chinese. IE, Persia eliminated China, then declared war on me, about 190AD. I made peace after taking the former Chinese territory.
I am in democracy, Ottomans, had been at peace about 80 turns. Persia declared war, and I had done nothing to specifically provoke it. (I was not looking for war) They also declared the first war, probably for a desired luxury.
Celts and Scandinavia joined the war when I went on the offensive, not when their troops invaded me.
I think that the scale and size of the civ(s) and number of troops has an effect on WW.
I do have police stations in most cities, and the US wonder.
I don't have a handy reference to turns vs years, but I am sure I have been at war longer than 90 turns as a democracy. I have also had demo overthrown when every city large enough was in WLTK.
I am running a test now on trading, in a controlled environment.
Germany demanded a luxury (1640-- standard time scale.)
I refused, and they declared war. No adverse effects, and they are on a separate continent. No units sent over, either way.
When I sank a ship at sea, Russia joined via MPP, and Persia also declared war.
Persia sent a stack of riflemen to take my nearest border city... I picked them off as they came. No adverse effects. IE no WW.
When their offensive troops were gone, I invaded and took too cities (out of 7). No troops on foreign soil more than one turn. Made peace.
Meanwhile, Persia attacked for no apparent reason, from the other side. Perhaps they thought they had an opportunity, while I was engaged.
Incoming troops were defeated (Riflemen to attack...) Lost one Sipahu in one defense attack. No WW.
Eight turns. I took the two nearest cities in one stroke. No WW.
Began a march into enemy territoy -- 31 units. Arty, Infantry, Sipahu. First turn out, every city changed from WLTK. (40 cities)
Added 10% Lux, and they returned to WLTK next turn. Turn 10 since Persia declared war.
Two turns later, I approach Persopolis, and all cities drop out of WLTK. again.
Eight cities have serious unhappiness -- these are conquered Persian, formerly Chinese. IE, Persia eliminated China, then declared war on me, about 190AD. I made peace after taking the former Chinese territory.
I am in democracy, Ottomans, had been at peace about 80 turns. Persia declared war, and I had done nothing to specifically provoke it. (I was not looking for war) They also declared the first war, probably for a desired luxury.
Celts and Scandinavia joined the war when I went on the offensive, not when their troops invaded me.
I think that the scale and size of the civ(s) and number of troops has an effect on WW.
I do have police stations in most cities, and the US wonder.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
The point about the 90 turns is just that if you have troops in enemy territory for 90 turns your democracy will fail.
Other questions about WW:
Does negative WW ever fade or does it just set the clock back? i.e. you start at -20 WW instead of 0 so it takes longer to reach first stage WW, then it would be the same from there. Or alternatively you start at a negative stage 1 WW and go from there in 30 point steps.
Is there a beneficial effect to retaking a city the AI took from you? What about killing enemy troops?
Do you get WW from losing troops? I have wondered if it is net troops lost.
Could US affect specific types of WW more than others? I have a hard time believing that it's only effect is 1/2 police station (without the corruption bonus) in every city.
Edit: I forgot to say.. Thank you Bamspeedy and DaveMcW, good testing!
Other questions about WW:
Does negative WW ever fade or does it just set the clock back? i.e. you start at -20 WW instead of 0 so it takes longer to reach first stage WW, then it would be the same from there. Or alternatively you start at a negative stage 1 WW and go from there in 30 point steps.
Is there a beneficial effect to retaking a city the AI took from you? What about killing enemy troops?
Do you get WW from losing troops? I have wondered if it is net troops lost.
Could US affect specific types of WW more than others? I have a hard time believing that it's only effect is 1/2 police station (without the corruption bonus) in every city.
Edit: I forgot to say.. Thank you Bamspeedy and DaveMcW, good testing!
Catt
Emperor
Excellent work Bamspeedy & DaveMcW!
I tried to do some testing similar to what you're doing, but failed at drawing any tremendous conclusions and failed utterly to get close to divining the formula. One way to test the effects of enemy AI units in your territory is to place AI units on a small island that falls under your cultural border (even city radius) but that doesn't contain any improved tiles, units, or cities -- the AI has nothing to destroy, but is also unable to move its units out of your territory (make sure to start the AI with enough gold to pay the support). I think I remember discerning growing war weariness solely from enemy troops in territory, but IIRC I had to have a "triggering event" (e.g., unit loss) to start the build up - absent a triggering event, no WW from enemy troops alone. My memory is very hazy and the experience was frustrating enough that I honestly can't remember if there was WW from enemy troops or if the "triggering event" test was something to be done but not yet done.
What difficulty level are you testing on? Regent? Or have you tried multiple difficulties and seen no difference? Any insights onto whether combat alone contributes, or must it be unit wins / losses (i.e., have you tried bombarding but not destroying and allowing the AI to retreat)? Sooo many questions . . .
. . . thanks for taking the time to do what you've done and sharing the info with us!
I tried to do some testing similar to what you're doing, but failed at drawing any tremendous conclusions and failed utterly to get close to divining the formula. One way to test the effects of enemy AI units in your territory is to place AI units on a small island that falls under your cultural border (even city radius) but that doesn't contain any improved tiles, units, or cities -- the AI has nothing to destroy, but is also unable to move its units out of your territory (make sure to start the AI with enough gold to pay the support). I think I remember discerning growing war weariness solely from enemy troops in territory, but IIRC I had to have a "triggering event" (e.g., unit loss) to start the build up - absent a triggering event, no WW from enemy troops alone. My memory is very hazy and the experience was frustrating enough that I honestly can't remember if there was WW from enemy troops or if the "triggering event" test was something to be done but not yet done.
What difficulty level are you testing on? Regent? Or have you tried multiple difficulties and seen no difference? Any insights onto whether combat alone contributes, or must it be unit wins / losses (i.e., have you tried bombarding but not destroying and allowing the AI to retreat)? Sooo many questions . . .
. . . thanks for taking the time to do what you've done and sharing the info with us!
Another thing: the exact difference between when war is declared on you and when you declare it yourself. (Points halved for wars not started by you, maybe?) Not to mention any conceivable differences between MPP-triggered wars, agreeing to alliances etc etc.
You know, when you have a few free minutes.
Renata
You know, when you have a few free minutes.
Renata
anarres
anarchist revolutionary
Excellent!
Can anyone here provide help with my current problem?
Calculating the exact probability of a culture flip
Can anyone here provide help with my current problem?
Calculating the exact probability of a culture flip
DaviddesJ
Deity
If you have a size 12 city with 8 regular population and 4 specialists, does the 25% level of war weariness create two unhappy faces, or three?
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
You're probably right. The kicker would be in how many of those turns did you have units in enemy territory? In the Tournament game 4-5, I (and just about everyone who played) spent almost the entire game at war under Democracy. But since the goal was Conquest and we started in the Modern Era, I either captured or razed one or more enemy cities every turn, rarely ending a turn inside an enemy's border. WW never became an issue.
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Ok, I finally got around to doing some more tests. Just a couple quick tests I did.
There doesn't seem to be any difference in WW between chieftain and deity. I still get to the first stage of WW after being in enemy territory for 30 turns.
Universal Suffrage makes 1 person that was unhappy, (because of war weariness) content in every city, regardless of city size.
Police stations, however, seem to be based on a %.
Test - Democracy and then Republic, Deity level, size 20 city. No luxuries, no luxury tax.
1 born content
8 content from Shakesphere's
3 content from hanging gardens
2 content from JS Bach's
1 content from temple
2 content from colleseum
3 content from cathedral
=20 content for my size 20 city.
When I hit the first stage of WW, I get 10 content, 10 unhappy for democracy. 15 content, 5 unhappy for Republic. Ok, so far so good, that matches our previous results that showed 50% WW for democracy, and 25% WW for Republic.
Just a police station in city:
Democracy-15 content/5 unhappy
Republic-20 content, 0 unhappy.
Just Universal Suffrage:
Democracy-11 content/9 unhappy
Republic-16 content/4 unhappy
Police station + Universal Suffrage:
Democracy-16 content/4 unhappy
Republic-20 content/0 unhappy
Weird thing is that when in Republic, if I sold the temple, then I would have 19 content/1 unhappy with a police station, and adding Universal Suffrage had no effect! (still 19 content/1 unhappy).
2nd stage of WW:
Democracy-20 unhappy
Republic-10 content/10 unhappy
Police station-
Democracy-5 content/15 unhappy
Republic-15 content/5 unhappy
Universal Suffrage:
Democracy-1 content/19 unhappy
Republic-11 content/9 unhappy
Universal Suffrage + Police Station:
Democracy-6 content/14 unhappy
Republic-16 content/4 unhappy
So, it looks like Universal suffrage stops 1 person from becoming unhappy (in all cities) when WW does kick in, and police stations reduces war weariness by 25% (in cities that have them). I'm not sure if I worded that right, but 25% of your population won't become unhappy when they should have without the police station.
Like DaveMcW said, police stations, and Universal Suffrage doesn't slow down war weariness, they just cause less people from becoming unhappy when you do go over the WW barriers.
There doesn't seem to be any difference in WW between chieftain and deity. I still get to the first stage of WW after being in enemy territory for 30 turns.
Universal Suffrage makes 1 person that was unhappy, (because of war weariness) content in every city, regardless of city size.
Police stations, however, seem to be based on a %.
Test - Democracy and then Republic, Deity level, size 20 city. No luxuries, no luxury tax.
1 born content
8 content from Shakesphere's
3 content from hanging gardens
2 content from JS Bach's
1 content from temple
2 content from colleseum
3 content from cathedral
=20 content for my size 20 city.
When I hit the first stage of WW, I get 10 content, 10 unhappy for democracy. 15 content, 5 unhappy for Republic. Ok, so far so good, that matches our previous results that showed 50% WW for democracy, and 25% WW for Republic.
Just a police station in city:
Democracy-15 content/5 unhappy
Republic-20 content, 0 unhappy.
Just Universal Suffrage:
Democracy-11 content/9 unhappy
Republic-16 content/4 unhappy
Police station + Universal Suffrage:
Democracy-16 content/4 unhappy
Republic-20 content/0 unhappy
Weird thing is that when in Republic, if I sold the temple, then I would have 19 content/1 unhappy with a police station, and adding Universal Suffrage had no effect! (still 19 content/1 unhappy).
2nd stage of WW:
Democracy-20 unhappy
Republic-10 content/10 unhappy
Police station-
Democracy-5 content/15 unhappy
Republic-15 content/5 unhappy
Universal Suffrage:
Democracy-1 content/19 unhappy
Republic-11 content/9 unhappy
Universal Suffrage + Police Station:
Democracy-6 content/14 unhappy
Republic-16 content/4 unhappy
So, it looks like Universal suffrage stops 1 person from becoming unhappy (in all cities) when WW does kick in, and police stations reduces war weariness by 25% (in cities that have them). I'm not sure if I worded that right, but 25% of your population won't become unhappy when they should have without the police station.
Like DaveMcW said, police stations, and Universal Suffrage doesn't slow down war weariness, they just cause less people from becoming unhappy when you do go over the WW barriers.
