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A New Dawn Beta Builds

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by 45°38'N-13°47'E, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    <delete>
    Was sulphur broken all this time? Or the problem really was just incomplete preq's for the different units? So removing sulphur and ammo is the easier "fix"?

    JosEPh :/
     
  2. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    City Gatehouse which prevents units from entering when culture above 25%, still prevent cannons and rifles which ignore walls and castles, and hence "see" the culture value below 25% from entering.
    Eg cannons see the defense as 17%, still cannot enter.
    They have to wait till older units like swordsmen who "see" the culture value below 25%, then they can enter.

    I figured out the best way of attacking these cities is to give the opponent economics before the war to obsolete them...
     
  3. os79

    os79 Deity

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    I saw two options:
    #1 Add sulphur and ammo (mostly sulphur because Zappara did a good complete job with ammo) to more units.
    Pro: More consistent
    Con: Big one. There is no AND list, just OR list for bonuses so it made adding sulphur or ammo an awkward affair to a few units.

    #2 Remove sulphur and ammo
    Con: No sulphur and ammo to play with, and thus making this modpack a bit like default BtS.
    Pro: Big one. Easier to cut out these resources because of above-mentioned problem with list tag. More consistent all about. Plus, it put less stress on AIs after Medieval era because technologies and buildings are coming down on them and you fast and furious. The AIs don't need that type of horsecrap to hinder it. Obsidian, copper, and iron are great for Ancient, Classical, and Medieval eras because these eras are coming to you slowly and AIs are given time to adapt and battle for these vital resources. Not so true for sulphur, and even less true when forcing AIs to build Ammo manufacturing building (because as Afforess and others repeatedly say, AIS cannot think long-term, period.)

    I took Option #2.
    Afforess can easily change that decision if he disagree. Just need to revert to 524 for CorporationInfo, BuildingInfo, ImprovementInfo, UnitInfo, and BonusInfo files, that's it.
     
  4. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    A 3rd option is to add saltpeter as an alternative gunpowder resource, such that players can build gunpowder units with either sulfur or saltpeter.

    Although, if you dont have either one, you are still screwed :)

    By the way, rifling leads to "semi automatic weapons" and "semi automatic weapons".
    This can be seen in civilopedia as well as the tech splash screen when u finished researching.

    PS Not sure if all these reported, but I cant be bothered to read through 200 pages, so I just post what I discovered while playing this game :x
     
  5. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Bug report:

    War Galley units can not auto-upgrade, period. They will ALWAYS have to be upgraded manually. It is confirmed bug because after I upgraded them to trieme, when it came time to upgrade to Caravels Siege Qu-whatever upgraded perfectly to Caravels, but the Triemes I upgraded manually from War Galleys didn't. I had to upgrade Triemes to Caravels too.

    So bug report is that War Galley units destroy auto-upgrade order.
     
  6. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Yeah, me too:
    I blasted a French city to 0% Defense but I'm unable to attack the city.
    Since I don't have Explosives yet, I can't give it to it for "cheat effect" of obsoleting buildings there that cause this like another player mentioned here.
    So I'm going to send in a team of spies and destroy buildings now.

    But yeah that is a glaring bug because I did blast the defense to 0%.

    Here is a savegame for you to examine if you need it. Look for my army outside of French city (30 units). Then try to invade the city with it.
     
  7. os79

    os79 Deity

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    #1 My earlier report about unassailable city:
    I just used a spy to destroy Castle. Then I'm in. Maybe it may not be a bug but a feature... Hm...

    #2 Wow, my whole conquering army was destroyed in an unmitigated disaster in a single turn!
    I attacked the French city (not the same one I talked about before). My whole army was used up in that first attack. OK, no big deal. I thought to myself I just need to heal one turn, then attack on the next turn.
    One mistake was that I loved the number of ten, so I sent my former Crossbowmen (now Musketmen) to border patrol and leave myself with just ten musketmen and ten Cannons.
    Well, as you may imagine, that was probably my mistake because in the AI's turn, they proceeded to attack my stack from two sides (one outside of the city and the one inside!) My whole stack was wiped out!
    Now I'm forced to rebuild my army. I'm just glad I managed to research Explosives just recently because I can add ten grenadiers to my stack!

    But still, wow! And it is just Noble level!
     
  8. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Koshling, somehow your latest update ruined Auto-Hunt (and maybe Auto-Border Patrol).
    I reverted the dll to 541 until you fix this.
     
  9. os79

    os79 Deity

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    I reverted the dll in SVN to Revision 530 for now until such the time you fix the Auto-Hunt and Auto-Border Patrol orders.

    Please take time to look over Automation tab in BUG Options, and UNDERSTAND! what is being presented there. Then after that consider all your optimizations accordingly.

    I for my own reasons depend somewhat heavily on these auto-orders, OK?
     
  10. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Last post on Auto Orders to avoid any misunderstanding...

    For me I visualize these orders as following:

    Auto-Hunt = Send an unit into enemy territory or neutral territory and hunt for any enemy roaming unit(s) and kill them if possible or die trying.

    Auto-Border Patrol = Patrol the border between enemy or neutral territory and kill any invading unit(s) or die trying.

    That simple. Afforess made these automation and they always somewhat met my expectations of what they are supposed to do but in recent game with the latest dll, I see the mass of Hunting units just waddling around INSIDE!!! my territory instead of going into my enemy territory and looking for units to kill!!!

    Now you understand my frustration?
     
  11. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I haven't touched auto-patrol at all. Auto-hunt I have changed and I'll see if I can see how it might be causing your issues.

    Edit - hmm - but it was rev 512 the last time I touched that aspect of the AI/automation, so what you are seeing must be a side-effect of a more general change (probably a movement cost optimization or bug-fix). I'm going to need a test case to see a problem before I can fix it. Please provide a save game illustrating the issue (ideally one where you tell a unit to automate and it obviously does something incorrect immediately, or at least soon after)
     
  12. os79

    os79 Deity

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    I have about 40 or so units on Auto-hunt order.

    Concentrate on land units. Notice that most of them are in domestic territory instead of enemy territory. (Just get up Military Advisor (Hotkey F5) and change the left drop down menu to Orders. Then click on units under Hunt Order heading. You will see dots of light. You will see them in domestic territory mostly. Then you just need to click on one of these dots and the map will bring you to the unit you desire to examine.
     
  13. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I have analysed what is happening in your save game in some details, and single stepped through the decision path for a selection of your specific automated units, and my conclusion is that it's nothing I've done (but that it's pretty obvious why it behaves as it does). Here are the details:

    Firstly the top level logic that automated hunting uses is this (explanation follows), none of which (at this level) has been altered since AND 1.75 at least:

    Code:
    	PROFILE_FUNC();
    	int iMinimumOdds = GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getModderOption(MODDEROPTION_AUTO_HUNT_MIN_COMBAT_ODDS);
    
    	if (AI_goody(4))
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    	
    	if (AI_heal())
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    	
    	if (AI_huntRange(1, iMinimumOdds, false))
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    	
    	if (AI_huntRange(2, iMinimumOdds, false))
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    	
    	if (AI_exploreRange(2))
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    	
    	if (AI_huntRange(3, iMinimumOdds, false))
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    
    	if (AI_exploreRange(3))
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    	
    	if (AI_huntRange(5, iMinimumOdds, false))
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    
    	if (AI_patrol())
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    
    	if (AI_retreatToCity())
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    
    	if (AI_safety())
    	{
    		return;
    	}
    
    	getGroup()->pushMission(MISSION_SKIP);
    	return;
    So basically this goes:
    1) If there is a goody hut within 4 of us go get it; else
    2) If we're hurt heal; else
    3) If there is an enemy we have decent odds against within 1 tile go attack it; else
    4) If there is an enemy we have decent odds against within 2 tiles go attack it; else
    5) If there is something worth exploring (unrevealed territory basically) within 2 go explore it; else
    6) If there is an enemy we have decent odds against within 3 tiles go attack it; else
    7) If there is something worth exploring (unrevealed territory basically) within 3 go explore it; else
    8) If there is an enemy we have decent odds against within 5 tiles go attack it; else
    9) Try to patrol; else
    ...

    I stopped after step (9) because it almost cannot fail (can only fail if there is no adjacent plot we can move to without an enemy on it).

    So, taking your save game, I examined 3 units:

    Modern Grenadeer south of Dijon - this spots the stack with the injured French dragoon a bit west of its position, but doesn't attack because it evaluates the odds as not good enough (there are some slightly weird calculations that adjust the AI's view of the odds that I'm not sure of the purpose of, but it's not something that has been changed since AND 1.75 at least). As a result it winds up falling into the 'Patrol' step at step (9), which amounts to a random walk.

    Light tank SE of the Hague - this spots the dragoons just SE of Paris and likes its odds, so at step (8) it decides to go attack them. However, the best path to them (due to the road network) takes it AWAY from them on the first move, and because the hunting does not have any 'memory' the net result is that on the NEXT turn when it repeats the same evaluation they are now out of range and it drops into 'patrol' mode (even deeper in your territory than before due to the raod network taking it that way)

    Infantry SW of Nanjing - basically just far too far away to see any potential targets and drops straight into 'patrol' mode. This is what most of your automated units are doing.

    Now, I won't deny this is pretty broken for the purposes you have in mind, and obvious improvements do come to mind. HOWEVER, I can find no trace of anything I have done having any effect on this, so I believe this is no worse with the current SVN rev than it ever has been. One thing that DOES strike me is that the larger your territory (and to some extent the more developed the road network unless you just spam roads everywhere) the more pronounced is the failure of this algorithm to produce effective results, so is it possible that you're noticing it more recently is a reflection of the way your game is evolving (your territory getting bigger, making out-of-range issues more likely, plus possibly changes to the road network) ?

    One obvious way to fix this is to add a step immediately before the patrol step to have any unit that is in your territory path to a random plot on your border with any player you are at war with or any adjacent neutral territory (or at the least to have a chance of choosing to do so).
     
  14. os79

    os79 Deity

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    First off:
    Apologies for misfired blaming.

    Second:
    If you can improve these two orders, I will be deeply, deeply grateful!

    Third:
    Yes, you are correct in connecting larger territory and advanced tech in terrain crossing builds. So, are you telling me that Hunt function should include the code to send my "Hunt-ified" units toward the edge of domestic territory (best choice, enemy border as well) before triggering the Hunt function? Reason is that I always train my Hunt-ified units in Shanghai because it is the city purposed for Hunting and Border Patrolling military units.
     
  15. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Koshling, your guess about territory being too large for present Hunt code is correct.

    I cancelled the Hunt order for all land units, then sent them manually to the edge between my domestic territory and French boundary. Then when few of my closest units arrived at the area, I ordered them to Hunt.
    Bingo!
    They functioned as they should.

    But yeah it would be nice if Border Patrol concentrate on enemies inside domestic territory while Hunt order concentrate on looking for enemies outside of the domestic territory almost exclusively, not default to border patrol (excepting of course if there is no longer any neutral territory and I'm in peace with all civs on the present landmass.)
     
  16. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I'll see what I can ;-)
     
  17. Kostia81

    Kostia81 Chieftain

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    Hi all! First of all, my appreciation to everyone involved in developing of such a great mod. I registered just to report about one trouble I have met (and to get some help if possible:)).
    It seems to be there is a problem with "Coinage" civic. One of it's new features is "minted" resources - gold and silver. Words "Consumes all gold and silver" probably means that when this civic is active we don't have gold and silver bonuses in city windows, can't trade them and maybe something else. But! When I change to any other civic, I still miss gold and silver. I discover new resources, build mines and still can't see them in city window. That is not good, some buildings need gold to be built.
    Does anybody know how to fix that without replaying and just not using Coinage? This civic now seems to be a trap.
     
  18. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Pushed a change to SVN that should help with your automation problems (rev 545). Let me know how it works out for you...

    ...on another matter - can anyone tell me where to find 'Advanced Econonmy' in the option screens? I can't seem to see it.
     
  19. os79

    os79 Deity

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    #1 Thanks, will report back with the results in few days (starting a new game...)

    #2 Advanced Economy is in Custom Game option list.
     
  20. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Played enough to test the new Hunt code. It seems to work as intended. I'll need more time to play before knowing with a certainty. But, do go ahead with other code priorities. If I see any problem, I will let you know. Otherwise, if there is no more reports from me, assume that it is going cool with me.
     

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