A New Dawn Beta Builds

[os79]

No one is saying remove it, they are saying separate it so they don't have to install it and then mannually remove it. I have to agree with them on the changes and would also like it as a separate option, instead of being a part of Better ROM.

Well, from my understanding of Better RoM principles, it is supposed to be Afforess' mostly preferred changes. So I'm assuming here that when he put something in Better RoM, it means that he want it be a part of flavor of this modmod. Yeah, Killtech, Vincentz, Dancing Hoskuld, etc, and I had given our ideas/modmods to make RoM better, but ultimately it was Afforess' decision whether or not to include in Better RoM because it is fundamentally his flavor, if you understand what I mean. So what you are effectively saying is that Afforess is wrong in having Killtech's stuff bettering his RoM.

Of course, if he does give in and make it a separate install option, I'll live and choose it in. That is completely different story . I was ranting that people only seemed to complain from seeing the Civilopedia, instead of actually playtesting it.

 

[dudeSDCA]

I was ranting that people only seemed to complain from seeing the Civilopedia, instead of actually playtesting it.

I played up until modern, at which time I had become sufficiently annoyed as to post my original post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9324501&postcount=2494) saying, as some others have agreed, that some of the changes are confusing and counter-intuitive (especially the science/education upgrade chain...even having played it and reading the spoiler on Killtech's post, I'm still confused).

Like I mentioned before, some of the changes are welcome--especially the production and city trade. However, some of the changes due seem arbitrary and complex for the sake of complexity.

I agree that this is Afforess's decision, and so rather than "demand" Killtech change his mod for my sakes, I simply inquired on how to remove the offending pieces.

In the interest of being productive (and not just complaining ) I posted my suggested edits/changes to the forum currently discussing this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9326485&postcount=67

 

[dudeSDCA]

instead of deleting the whole folder you can open it and delete the parts you don't like. the files with the "Ind" prefix contain the construction (e.g. cranes), production (e.g. factory) and processing (e.g. forge) buildings. the banks are among the ComGold files. just make sure not to delete the Ind_CIV4ArtDefines_Building, Com_CIV4ArtDefines_Building and IndProcessing_CIV4BuildingsSchema files if you make a partially delete.

Spoiler :

I tried to delete the ComEducation, ComGold files (just the BuildingClassInfos, BuildingInfos, GameText, and SpecialBuildingInfos) and the game wouldn't load...so not sure what you were suggesting I could delete to play partially with your mod?

Thanks for being open to feedback!

Nevermind, I found if I just deleted the buildingInfos files (and nothing else), it loads and looks like the 'pedia is showing what it should. THANKS!

 

[AndarielHalo]

I think I missed it; even though Revolutions is supposedly disabled, in the game I can apparently enable it again, but I'm not seeing any civilizations revolt and form anew, so my games starting with 7 civs are being rendered down to 3 civs within 2000 - 3000 years

 

[Afforess]

I think I missed it; even though Revolutions is supposedly disabled, in the game I can apparently enable it again, but I'm not seeing any civilizations revolt and form anew, so my games starting with 7 civs are being rendered down to 3 civs within 2000 - 3000 years

You should not be able to turn on/off Revolutions mid-game.

 

[AndarielHalo]

You should not be able to turn on/off Revolutions mid-game.

I turned it on before the game started, but there haven't been any revolutions or new civilizations arising from barbarians. It's only around 1000 BC, though

 

[Afforess]

You do realize that you can't turn Revolutions on anymore, only off, yes?

 

[AndarielHalo]

You do realize that you can't turn Revolutions on anymore, only off, yes?

I... don't understand. I do know that in Custom Game, there was the option "No Revolutions", and I did not check that. Therefore, Revolutions must be on. Is that so?

 

[Afforess]

Yes, that's what I mean. Hopefully your game is going smoothly.

 

[AndarielHalo]

Yes, that's what I mean. Hopefully your game is going smoothly.

The only real problem aside from my obnoxious bickering and complaining is that I cannot build Jungle Camps at all. Not even an icon to build them.


And hopefully there will be some revolutions before it comes down to Me vs One other by the Medieval era.


Also, this might be normal, but it feels like cities are growing too fast for Snail mode. It's 630 turns in, 970 BC, and my capital city has just reached size 9. I can churn out oodles of units if I want, while it's getting very unsanitary and overpopulated.

 

[Tarvu]

That people get unhappy if they can't repay?
This is a minor detail in the annals of civilization, and not worthy of an unhappiness modifier on banks (which last long after the Jewish monopoly on money lending expired. And the progromes had many other causes then bad loans. Banks do NOT cause unhappiness today, nor did they do it before. It is ridiculous. The ability to loan money to make an investment is an opportunity, not a problem. Does a hospital cause unhappiness because it hurts (in many cases) to get a treatment?

I just feel like I have to defend the change here. First of all the "Jewish monopoly" I don't think has anything to do with the banks causing unhappiness in fact if anything it has contributed to anti semetism not the other way around, as many of the stereotypes regarding Jewish people were generated at this time, so it was the Jewish connection to banking and not the banking connection to Judaism which actually bred the animosity. I mean honestly do you think that once the "gentile" took over banking operations all of its problems were solved, and it suddenly became a fair and equitable business in which no one walked away unhappy? Now that sounds anti-Semitic... anyways have you even considered why the early Christian church even banned Christians from taking part in it in the first place? (because of the animosity it bred perhaps?)

A minor detail? If you call the wars fought over debts, the national uprisings caused by debts, the entire social atmosphere generated by the great depression in America and Europe minor well... Not to mention that the ongoing effects of inequality are the best single predictor for high crime rates in a society (which I'd say sure reflects some ongoing unhappiness).

And yes hospitals which turn many people away from treatment while at the same time heaping loads of unnecessary care on a privileged few (how the credit system works) absolutely does cause unhappiness!!! (see entirety of the health care debate in America, and the existence of some form of socialized care in nearly ever single other developed nation on Earth).

I guess they can separate it from the rest of Better RoM, but there are all sorts of changes included in better RoM which you could similarly pick apart until we had 30 options on install, I just hope it isn't removed since I think it actually balances some of the other changes which arguably make the game a little easier on the player and from what I've seen the AI seems to handle them well enough, though I haven't tried with revolutions yet.

 

[AndarielHalo]

A minor detail? If you call the wars fought over debts, the national uprisings caused by debts, the entire social atmosphere generated by the great depression in America and Europe minor well... Not to mention that the ongoing effects of inequality are the best single predictor for high crime rates in a society (which I'd say sure reflects some ongoing unhappiness).

All of which has little to nothing to do with the actual banks themselves. You WOULD have had a better point if you remarked about the "Bank War" involving Andrew Jackson's opposition to the formation of a nation-wide bank...

Which STILL doesn't apply to individual local bank buildings.


As well there's the mistrust that Southerners in the Antebellum American South felt towards banks in the North. I don't recall if it had any particular name I could look up, but I read up on this before.


Which STIIIILL doesn't apply to individual local banks.





And to my own issue;

If these civs ARE going straight for Dualism in order to get the Hanging Gardens, then these civs are ing stupid, or this reasoning is wrong; my rival civ founded Zoroastrianism with Dualism 800 turns ago, and I only now stole that tech with a spy, to find out NO ONE has built the Hanging Gardens yet.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And to my own issue;

If these civs ARE going straight for Dualism in order to get the Hanging Gardens, then these civs are ing stupid, or this reasoning is wrong; my rival civ founded Zoroastrianism with Dualism 800 turns ago, and I only now stole that tech with a spy, to find out NO ONE has built the Hanging Gardens yet.

As far as I can see it is the next easiest religion to get after the Egyptian religion. That is my guess. If you have AAranda's religions then there are a heap of other choices for them to head for instead but I have not yet converted them from RoM 2.91 to 2.92.

@Afforess, I notice you have dropped the Orion Veteran's wonders and national wonders from AND for balance. I agree to a large part and have a "balance them" on my to do list. I disagree with the Strategic Grain Reserve NW not being balanced and wondered what your reasoning was. The only thing I thought was a problem was the requirement that it be built on a river.

 

[Afforess]

@Afforess, I notice you have dropped the Orion Veteran's wonders and national wonders from AND for balance. I agree to a large part and have a "balance them" on my to do list. I disagree with the Strategic Grain Reserve NW not being balanced and wondered what your reasoning was. The only thing I thought was a problem was the requirement that it be built on a river.

It's a bit OP too. It gives +2 health, 50% food kept in the city it's built in, which would greatly speed up growth. That and it has the possibility of giving up to +5 health in the main city. It's even stronger than the Hanging Gardens, which is a world wonder.

 

[os79]

Tip on finding out if a wonder had been built or not:

1. Hotkey F9
2. Click on Wonders Statistics

And bingo you have the latest on wonders in-game .

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It's a bit OP too. It gives +2 health, 50% food kept in the city it's built in, which would greatly speed up growth. That and it has the possibility of giving up to +5 health in the main city. It's even stronger than the Hanging Gardens, which is a world wonder.

So it is OP not balance between nations. Got it. They were built for vanilla BTS so yes they need down playing for RoM.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's a bit OP too. It gives +2 health, 50% food kept in the city it's built in, which would greatly speed up growth. That and it has the possibility of giving up to +5 health in the main city. It's even stronger than the Hanging Gardens, which is a world wonder.

AndarielHalo wrote:....my rival civ founded Zoroastrianism with Dualism 800 turns ago, and I only now stole that tech with a spy, to find out NO ONE has built the Hanging Gardens yet.

If Hanging Gardens is so strong then how do you get what Andariel has? The AI won't even build it. So how worthwhile is it? Many of the Wonders have been gutted over the past several iterations, along with various buildings, religions, and Civics.

And Strategic Reserves is not OP.

So I pose this question: For the sake of difficulty are we now taking the Fun (ie. rewards) out of the mod? Seems to me to be the path being walked.

As Robby the Robot used to say: "Warning Will Robinson, Warning!"

JosEPh

 

[dudeSDCA]

I just feel like I have to defend the change here. First of all the "Jewish monopoly" I don't think has anything to do with the banks causing unhappiness in fact if anything it has contributed to anti semetism not the other way around, as many of the stereotypes regarding Jewish people were generated at this time, so it was the Jewish connection to banking and not the banking connection to Judaism which actually bred the animosity. I mean honestly do you think that once the "gentile" took over banking operations all of its problems were solved, and it suddenly became a fair and equitable business in which no one walked away unhappy? Now that sounds anti-Semitic... anyways have you even considered why the early Christian church even banned Christians from taking part in it in the first place? (because of the animosity it bred perhaps?)

Killtech (the creator) brought up the antisemitism issue as part of the defense of the unhappiness...

A minor detail? If you call the wars fought over debts, the national uprisings caused by debts, the entire social atmosphere generated by the great depression in America and Europe minor well... Not to mention that the ongoing effects of inequality are the best single predictor for high crime rates in a society (which I'd say sure reflects some ongoing unhappiness).

Yes. Agreed with this. But this is not related to individual banks. This is a symptom of how regulated the banking industry is. When there is little regulation, there's "loan-sharks" people being given credit who shouldn't get it, etc. I also think that a lack of regulation and other government factors lead to inequality...Not having a bank!

And yes hospitals which turn many people away from treatment while at the same time heaping loads of unnecessary care on a privileged few (how the credit system works) absolutely does cause unhappiness!!! (see entirety of the health care debate in America, and the existence of some form of socialized care in nearly ever single other developed nation on Earth).

Yes -- But I think this should be related to CIVIC choices. So if you chose a Corporatist civic, for instance, maybe the doctor's office gives health and unhappiness because of the cost. And maybe then the banking should give unhappiness because it's not being regulated.

I think we're overlooking the HUGE positives banks do for society -- they provide credit to allow for most small businesses (who can't have the cash set-aside to buy a lot of the materials they might need for day-to-day operations); they provide credit so people can afford to invest in homes; they provide security because people feel they have a safe place to put their money.

Of course, these benefits can be seriously degraded if there's little to no regulation. In the middle ages, there was little regulation--no wonder people thought negatively of banks! And the same is true (again!) in America as we've deregulated the banking industry to allow for the banks to do a lot of things they shouldn't (similar to the same issues that proceeded the stock market crash in 1929 and the Savings & Loan scandal in the 80s). But it should be the CIVIC choices that cause banks to be negative or positive, not just banks prima facie.

 

[dudeSDCA]

If Hanging Gardens is so strong then how do you get what Andariel has? The AI won't even build it. So how worthwhile is it? Many of the Wonders have been gutted over the past several iterations, along with various buildings, religions, and Civics.

And Strategic Reserves is not OP.

So I pose this question: For the sake of difficulty are we now taking the Fun (ie. rewards) out of the mod? Seems to me to be the path being walked.

Agree completely.

Also, I noticed that with the new mod, Pyramids builds River regulation instead of irrigation canals. River regulation is 2 unhealthiness and +1 gold. WHY would a WONDER like the Pyramids cause me 2 unhealthiness in each city?!?

Like a number of us have been saying recently in this thread, it seems like a lot of these changes are changes for change-sakes, handicapping a number of the WWs and NWs, and putting in a lot of negative penalties. I believe the AI has trouble weighing negative penalties too.

 

[NBAfan]

Who changed the wonders?