A New Dawn Beta Builds

[Tarvu]

Killtech (the creator) brought up the antisemitism issue as part of the defense of the unhappiness...



Yes. Agreed with this. But this is not related to individual banks. This is a symptom of how regulated the banking industry is. When there is little regulation, there's "loan-sharks" people being given credit who shouldn't get it, etc. I also think that a lack of regulation and other government factors lead to inequality...Not having a bank!


Yes -- But I think this should be related to CIVIC choices. So if you chose a Corporatist civic, for instance, maybe the doctor's office gives health and unhappiness because of the cost. And maybe then the banking should give unhappiness because it's not being regulated.

I think we're overlooking the HUGE positives banks do for society -- they provide credit to allow for most small businesses (who can't have the cash set-aside to buy a lot of the materials they might need for day-to-day operations); they provide credit so people can afford to invest in homes; they provide security because people feel they have a safe place to put their money.

Of course, these benefits can be seriously degraded if there's little to no regulation. In the middle ages, there was little regulation--no wonder people thought negatively of banks! And the same is true (again!) in America as we've deregulated the banking industry to allow for the banks to do a lot of things they shouldn't (similar to the same issues that proceeded the stock market crash in 1929 and the Savings & Loan scandal in the 80s). But it should be the CIVIC choices that cause banks to be negative or positive, not just banks prima facie.

But you see you already have all of that, as other buildings give happiness BONUSES to counteract it. The people being turned away from banks for example under charity, can still get grain from the granary counteracting the problem hence the +happiness from the granary.

The issue goes far beyond regulation, even well regulated (and in fact I'd say this becomes even more of an issue when banks are properly regulated) you still have many(most) people turned down for loans whereas those with the proper backing (ie the people who already have money) getting more. This is banking, it is just how it works. I'm not saying it is wrong, but it undeniably causes unhappiness among the have-nots.

If a bank is giving out loans to everyone, despite their financial situation then it is not a bank. It is a charity.

Also I think you just misunderstood Killtech's point, I didn't read it as Jews=bad so Banking+jews=unhappiness. More that antisemitism is an example of the negative feelings towards banks since most bankers at that time were Jewish.

 

[Afforess]

If Hanging Gardens is so strong then how do you get what Andariel has? The AI won't even build it. So how worthwhile is it? Many of the Wonders have been gutted over the past several iterations, along with various buildings, religions, and Civics.

And Strategic Reserves is not OP.

So I pose this question: For the sake of difficulty are we now taking the Fun (ie. rewards) out of the mod? Seems to me to be the path being walked.

As Robby the Robot used to say: "Warning Will Robinson, Warning!"

JosEPh

Agree completely.

Also, I noticed that with the new mod, Pyramids builds River regulation instead of irrigation canals. River regulation is 2 unhealthiness and +1 gold. WHY would a WONDER like the Pyramids cause me 2 unhealthiness in each city?!?

Like a number of us have been saying recently in this thread, it seems like a lot of these changes are changes for change-sakes, handicapping a number of the WWs and NWs, and putting in a lot of negative penalties. I believe the AI has trouble weighing negative penalties too.

Huh? I have hardly altered any wonders. I don't think I can name more than 2 or 3 that are different from base RoM. Religions? I haven't modded them at all. Civics? I've added civics, sure, but not gutted any, excepting Communism.

You guys seem to be more anti-Building Upgrades than anything else. If the AI is having problems building enough wonders, well thats an AI problem, not a problem with their stats.

The phrase: "Changes for Changes sake" seems to imply that I'm just changing random stats around because that's how I get my kicks. Apparently the overbalance of production and gold from 1.73 is quickly forgotten. Notice how no one is complaining of over production or too much research in the Betas?

Oh, and the AI handles negative penalties just fine.

If you have more specific problems, lke DudeSCA mentioned, the Pyramids, great, then tell me. I'd be happy to look at them, and alter them accordingly. I don't mind re-evaulating changes, I do want to make AND better. But I can't do so without specifics.

 

[Sonereal]

On another note: Automated Border Patrol is useful against non-raging barbarians. Against raging barbarians, however, it seems like the automated units have a strange habit of leaving the borders to hunt an animal outside the territory.

I'm finding that I was better off manually controlling my own units most of the time so I can make use of terrain defenses and prevent silly things like my warrior attacking a warrior in open grasslands despite the fact there's a javilineer ready to pounce.

On another note: I'm not having overproduction or gold anymore which is a welcome change from 1.73 where I could run the entirety of Eurasia on a gigantic-sized map and have my sliders set to a 100 in total for most of the ride and have a capital that can produce two or three units a turn by the end of the Classical Era.

 

[Elucidus]

So what you are effectively saying is that Afforess is wrong in having Killtech's stuff bettering his RoM.

I said nothing of the sort. He can have it he can even leave it as a default, but it just seems to me that if some people don't want it in there game, and it is easy enough to do, why not make it a separate selection, even if that selection is on by default?

I guess I just don't see the big deal here.

 

[Afforess]

On another note: Automated Border Patrol is useful against non-raging barbarians. Against raging barbarians, however, it seems like the automated units have a strange habit of leaving the borders to hunt an animal outside the territory.

I'll make that an option, so that you can force Border Patrol to stay inside of your borders all of the time.

I'm finding that I was better off manually controlling my own units most of the time so I can make use of terrain defenses and prevent silly things like my warrior attacking a warrior in open grasslands despite the fact there's a javilineer ready to pounce.

I'll see what I can do to improve that.

 

[os79]

I'll make that an option, so that you can force Border Patrol to stay inside of your borders all of the time.

Please be careful with the code here because sea units, and sometimes land units too, can be stuck in one area of civ border... Make sure that patrolling units stay in borders but within reason. If there is a civ area that is split temporarily from main area, then patrolling units should be able to cross neutral or permitted territory as they patrol.

I'll see what I can do to improve that.

Yeah, that would be cool because there had been few times when units did not stack up if they are nearby together in order to attack an enemy invader. If there's no other units nearby, then do as normal because war of attrition is better than nothing. I definitely still want patrolling units to protect my hard-worked improvements to their best abilities .

 

[Afforess]

Please be careful with the code here because sea units, and sometimes land units too, can be stuck in one area of civ border... Make sure that patrolling units stay in borders but within reason. If there is a civ area that is split temporarily from main area, then patrolling units should be able to cross neutral or permitted territory as they patrol.

I made sure they don't get stuck, instead they will retreat to the nearest city if they can't patrol. Anyway, the default behavior is to not stray farther than 2 tiles from the border.

Yeah, that would be cool because there had been few times when units did not stack up if they are nearby together in order to attack an enemy invader. If there's no other units nearby, then do as normal because war of attrition is better than nothing. I definitely still want patrolling units to protect my hard-worked improvements to their best abilities .

Yeah, I think I fixed it by counting Adjacent attackers too. I just need to do some more testing.

 

[dudeSDCA]

Huh? I have hardly altered any wonders. I don't think I can name more than 2 or 3 that are different from base RoM. Religions? I haven't modded them at all. Civics? I've added civics, sure, but not gutted any, excepting Communism.

I think there are more changes to the wonders in Killtech's modmod than appear at first glance.

You guys seem to be more anti-Building Upgrades than anything else.

Yup. I posted very specific feedback (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9326485&postcount=67) about the 2-3 significant issues with the building upgrades. I'm in support of the rest of 1.74 changes, and appreciate your fixing a lot of issues in 1.73!

The phrase: "Changes for Changes sake" seems to imply that I'm just changing random stats around because that's how I get my kicks.

That was specifically issued at all the changes that came with Killtech's modmod

If you have more specific problems, lke DudeSCA mentioned, the Pyramids, great, then tell me. I'd be happy to look at them, and alter them accordingly. I don't mind re-evaulating changes, I do want to make AND better. But I can't do so without specifics.

Thanks! If you see my other post, you'll see the couple of things I'm concerned about.

I did feel that with the changes the tech was moving too fast in 1.74 (I think balancing issues with the building upgrades), and I was somewhat worried that with all the changes to production (military, specifically) in the building upgrades that if the AI (or player) were to neglect some of the - Hammer buildings and focus just on +military production, they could significantly churn out units.

Edit: And I do miss the ideology choices...

 

[Sonereal]

There's a problem with automated exploring scouts. I'm playing on a duel-sized map (Big and Small mapscript) and my scouts have explored the entire continent already so for some reason, they weren't from automated exploration to automated border patrol.

Also, I wouldn't recommend playing with revolutions on on duel-sized maps on Eternity. The first city the AI pumped out revolted.

Edit: The rebellion was a huge problem for the Sumerians in the end. Thankfully, the "settler right off the bat thing" will be fixed in the next beta as out of 700 or so turns, the Sumerians had to have wasted a quarter of that building the Settler that ended up revolting anyway. I invaded and raze the Ottomans (the rebels) who had about 3 or 4 warriors to go up against my javelin throwers. After that, I beelined to the Sumerians who only had a pathetic one warrior for both of their cities (compared to the two stacks of Javelin Throwers with 3 units each I threw at them).

I noticed there's no gold overflow and I pretty much sunk my research building that force but since I was on Monarch difficulty by then, its to be expected.


Edit2: What happened to the Cloud Pattern tech? I can't remember how it was exactly in 1.73 but I thought it was worth researching (i.e. gives you something) but now its just filler. Another point (and this was a problem in 1.73 and I think any mod with archer bombard) is that automated explorers get stuck when hit with an archer bombard as in, they stop on the tile and try to heal completely while archers keep raining arrows on the explorer. Eh, it's a small issue though.


Final Edit: For some reason, I'm having a strange infinite "Waiting for Other Civilizations" turn time. I'll post a log and save a little later as I don't have much time now. This is the second time I've got it and I don't know what's happening exactly. The first time it happened, I thought it had to do with another civilization trying to contact me but multiple playtests since then (all without the wait) says that's incorrect.

Here's a save. I have all the options installed except Formations.

 

[Afforess]

There's a problem with automated exploring scouts. I'm playing on a duel-sized map (Big and Small mapscript) and my scouts have explored the entire continent already so for some reason, they weren't from automated exploration to automated border patrol.

Huh? They weren't from, or WENT from? Explorers can't border patrol, and I haven't modified the automate explorer AI at all.

Edit2: What happened to the Cloud Pattern tech? I can't remember how it was exactly in 1.73 but I thought it was worth researching (i.e. gives you something) but now its just filler. Another point (and this was a problem in 1.73 and I think any mod with archer bombard) is that automated explorers get stuck when hit with an archer bombard as in, they stop on the tile and try to heal completely while archers keep raining arrows on the explorer. Eh, it's a small issue though.

Will fix.

Final Edit: For some reason, I'm having a strange infinite "Waiting for Other Civilizations" turn time. I'll post a log and save a little later as I don't have much time now. This is the second time I've got it and I don't know what's happening exactly. The first time it happened, I thought it had to do with another civilization trying to contact me but multiple playtests since then (all without the wait) says that's incorrect.

Are you using xUPT? If so, turn it off and see if it unfreezes.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I made sure they don't get stuck, instead they will retreat to the nearest city if they can't patrol. Anyway, the default behavior is to not stray farther than 2 tiles from the border.

I have only played one game of AND so my experience here may be "fate" not code. My units on patrol boarders seemed to spend a lot of time in the centre of my nation. Are coasts considered boarders for land units? That would explain my experience if so. My nation was around the shores of a large bay.

 

[Afforess]

I have only played one game of AND so my experience here may be "fate" not code. My units on patrol boarders seemed to spend a lot of time in the centre of my nation. Are coasts considered boarders for land units? That would explain my experience if so. My nation was around the shores of a large bay.

Yes, but not optimal borders. Land borders are weighted higher than coastal ones.

 

[RobO]

On the Bank issue. I won't be able to post again for a few days, so this will have to stand on it's own.

The issue is not just the Bank. It is changes upon changes on a very flimsy foundation. Another example is here. The bank change was apparently an attempt to solve another problem, with a very - IMO - unsound justification.

The quality of AND / Better RoM / RoM suffers severely as a result of this. So much that I may just drop it and go elsewhere. It is time to go back to basics. Banks provide money. Universities provide research. If you up the research in general (by distributing your commerce in that direction) you will get less money. This is the mechanism used in the game to model these dependencies. No need to replicate it in 15 other places.

Using the wrong means to solve a problem just creates an endless chain of unnecessary problem resolutions.

My opinion on the justification for the bank unhappiness stands btw.

 

[Tarvu]

well I disagree, I think you do need to represent in more areas because the impact of such things are felt at more than the national level, they impact individual communities which is why the building effects I think are a welcome change.

The previous way that civ was, there was a very simple ideal buildset that I would build pretty much every one of my cities towards, now with building effects I have to plan ahead and sometimes I can actually make a mistake, or not anticipate something (such as a front with an enemy changing, or a population boom from some newly discovered resource or something) which causes my decisions to have a negative effect. On the other hand most of the time I can simply counteract ANY current negative building effect and it has never prevented me outright from building something.

As for the justification I stand by my support of Killtech's reasoning for including them as they are, but people can disagree I just hope if the changes are separated they will be done in a way that keeps it balanced with the rest of mod and ongoing changes cause Killtech if you are reading this I love them, and am really looking forward to your government civics as well.

 

[Afforess]

The quality of AND / Better RoM / RoM suffers severely as a result of this.

How so? How can any change alter quality when every change is optional? I know that you dislike it vehemently, but it IS an option in the installer.

Further, have you offered alternate, workable solutions to the problem that the Building Upgrades fix? It's a bit presumptuous to call Killtech out on his changes when they fix a severe balancing issue nicely, and not offer a different, alternate solution. What would you have me do? Simply remove a component? Why? It's optional.

 

[climat]

I didn't think that Killtech's changes would bring this kind of overreaction..

 

[Afforess]

I did. People want their cake, and to eat it too. They want the balancing issues solved, but for none of the building stats to change. It's impossible. If I wasn't so good at doing the impossible, I'd have a lot more complaints by now.

 

[ruskyandrei]

Quick question on the new (awesome) automation actions you added Afforess. Is there one that allows auto recon with air units (didn't check). And if not, would making one be a lot of work ?

I'm asking because i always found air recon missions great at keeping an eye on your borders and beyond (so you see that mega stack coming your way in time )but having to manually order them every turn is too tedious.

What i was thinking of is a sort of repeatable Air Recon mission, where you select a spot and it runs an air recon mission to that tile from its base every turn until you order it to stop or do something else.

 

[os79]

Quick question on the new (awesome) automation actions you added Afforess. Is there one that allows auto recon with air units (didn't check). And if not, would making one be a lot of work ?

I'm asking because i always found air recon missions great at keeping an eye on your borders and beyond (so you see that mega stack coming your way in time )but having to manually order them every turn is too tedious.

What i was thinking of is a sort of repeatable Air Recon mission, where you select a spot and it runs an air recon mission to that tile from its base every turn until you order it to stop or do something else.

Go here and read the details of AUA .

 

[ruskyandrei]

Go here and read the details of AUA .

I did but i still don't see an automated Air Recon mission. I see air strikes and bomb runs but no recon
Unless i missed it (but i reread it a lot of times to be sure )