Yes I second all of these, though the features problem I think is tied to map size scaling. On smaller maps there will likely be no ice or desert for some of the features to spawn in, so they spawn wherever they can. Also, the lake size on standard does make for some interesting interior seas. I'd imagine those could be interesting in a game. But yea regular lakes need to be smaller then that.
A new map script (MountainCoast)
- Thread starter lonkero173
- Start date
Yes I second all of these, though the features problem I think is tied to map size scaling. On smaller maps there will likely be no ice or desert for some of the features to spawn in, so they spawn wherever they can. Also, the lake size on standard does make for some interesting interior seas. I'd imagine those could be interesting in a game. But yea regular lakes need to be smaller then that.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
also i had a huge perfectly circular island in the middle of the ocean once... was fairly odd. id also like to see more (quite small) islands if possible 
lonkero173
Junior Pythoneer
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 59
Seems to be I have a lot to answer to....
I have not done anything to the default civ starting position system, and fixing it is a considerable priority. However due to the nature of the map script, perfect balancing is pretty much impossible. The only decent way I can think of for fixing the situation is a bit of extra res for those who start in the middle of the plains...(In fact my resource script should already put more res on the plains than elsewhere (simply because plains can take more resource types), that was one of the points of writing it)
The resources: the reason why you see an abundance of resources in jungles is because civ places a fixed amount of each resource on the map, and since jungles are rare and forests are common.... (this pretty much dissappears if you set the climate to tropical)
Goodiehuts: yes, I noticed this myself a while ago, will be fixed soon (I just woke up)
The dropdown: Peaks are (possibly) lone (circular) mountains, ranges are the long ones.
Lakes: Yes, I'll fix the sizes, and they are often circular because because I generate them as circular, and hope that a bit of noise and gaussian blur will fix the issue, not to mention ranges trying to be on top of them etc. I could try generating them as mountain ranges with negative altitude.... any opinions on that?
The rivers: The rivers starting from water are there because I thought all rivers are supposed to make it to the ocean eventually. The other glithes
... I'm working on a reasonable way of getting rid of them without introducing more, bit of a mess when my script generates rivers as if they were in the middle of the tiland civ wants them in between (anyone here ever code? Its so much easier to introduce bugs than get rid of them....)
Guardian etc. are running the default placement algorithm, I dont really even know how to change this, thus giving this one fairly low priority
Scorpion clan, same thing
The ridge blockoff: This is in my opinion by far the worst bug still around, an I'm working on a way of fixing it (might have found a reasonable method, needs implementation..)
The size of the aforementioned ridges goes in the same set of issues. If I make them much smaller than they are now, continuous ranges disappear and you just get hills with a peak here and there. If I make them bigger the chances of havign inaccessible parts goes up fast.
Island of the coast: It's a misplaced peak(drop down variant)... You don't notice that its actually circular when it's in the middle of land, and there are more other features to obstruct the shape. Any good ideas how to deal with this? (truly random shapes are a pain to code, circles are easy....)
The ying-yang is due to the map scripts moisture propagation simulation, it always assumes a west wind (I might actually do something to make the wind do more North/South movement, but a perfectly circular island will still get roughly the same pattern anyway)
@PotatoOverdose
Did the hills/plains line have any other notable features? (what was on the other side?) Was there water nearby? I thought if fixed a similar bug some time ago (much worse than what you describe).
It might also be a very small range that happened to be perfectly straight...chances are low but its possible....
And then another bit of explanation: a bit about my own playing habits, you might understand why some things are the way they are...
Two things I like: big maps, and lots of players. I also prefer the slow speeds (marathon!!) but they take an ungodly amount of time so I don't play those very often. My preference for big maps is probably pretty clear from the map sizes, but since those can be adjusted and I want my overkill sized maps, thats not about to change. Second, since I usually play with a lot (about double the default is good) of AI's I'm pretty much in the "do or die" school of thought. One AI being stranded in the middle of nowhere doesn't make much of a difference, since usually a couple AI's die before I even make contact.
Due in part to both of these preferences, the map script creates a lot of areas that aren't really meant for settlement(city radius of nothing but hills or desert or plains without a river... Also pay heed to the "inspired by Middle Earth", a lot of that was just wasteland with the civ equivalent of barbarians. What I intend to do with starting locations is guarantee they do not end up in those areas, but apart from that, it's survival of the fittest.
I now I think that about does it, next post will hopefully announce a script update
I have not done anything to the default civ starting position system, and fixing it is a considerable priority. However due to the nature of the map script, perfect balancing is pretty much impossible. The only decent way I can think of for fixing the situation is a bit of extra res for those who start in the middle of the plains...(In fact my resource script should already put more res on the plains than elsewhere (simply because plains can take more resource types), that was one of the points of writing it)
The resources: the reason why you see an abundance of resources in jungles is because civ places a fixed amount of each resource on the map, and since jungles are rare and forests are common.... (this pretty much dissappears if you set the climate to tropical)
Goodiehuts: yes, I noticed this myself a while ago, will be fixed soon (I just woke up)
The dropdown: Peaks are (possibly) lone (circular) mountains, ranges are the long ones.
Lakes: Yes, I'll fix the sizes, and they are often circular because because I generate them as circular, and hope that a bit of noise and gaussian blur will fix the issue, not to mention ranges trying to be on top of them etc. I could try generating them as mountain ranges with negative altitude.... any opinions on that?
The rivers: The rivers starting from water are there because I thought all rivers are supposed to make it to the ocean eventually. The other glithes
... I'm working on a reasonable way of getting rid of them without introducing more, bit of a mess when my script generates rivers as if they were in the middle of the tiland civ wants them in between (anyone here ever code? Its so much easier to introduce bugs than get rid of them....)Guardian etc. are running the default placement algorithm, I dont really even know how to change this, thus giving this one fairly low priority
Scorpion clan, same thing
The ridge blockoff: This is in my opinion by far the worst bug still around, an I'm working on a way of fixing it (might have found a reasonable method, needs implementation..)
The size of the aforementioned ridges goes in the same set of issues. If I make them much smaller than they are now, continuous ranges disappear and you just get hills with a peak here and there. If I make them bigger the chances of havign inaccessible parts goes up fast.
Island of the coast: It's a misplaced peak(drop down variant)... You don't notice that its actually circular when it's in the middle of land, and there are more other features to obstruct the shape. Any good ideas how to deal with this? (truly random shapes are a pain to code, circles are easy....)
The ying-yang is due to the map scripts moisture propagation simulation, it always assumes a west wind (I might actually do something to make the wind do more North/South movement, but a perfectly circular island will still get roughly the same pattern anyway)
@PotatoOverdose
Did the hills/plains line have any other notable features? (what was on the other side?) Was there water nearby? I thought if fixed a similar bug some time ago (much worse than what you describe).
It might also be a very small range that happened to be perfectly straight...chances are low but its possible....
And then another bit of explanation: a bit about my own playing habits, you might understand why some things are the way they are...
Two things I like: big maps, and lots of players. I also prefer the slow speeds (marathon!!) but they take an ungodly amount of time so I don't play those very often. My preference for big maps is probably pretty clear from the map sizes, but since those can be adjusted and I want my overkill sized maps, thats not about to change. Second, since I usually play with a lot (about double the default is good) of AI's I'm pretty much in the "do or die" school of thought. One AI being stranded in the middle of nowhere doesn't make much of a difference, since usually a couple AI's die before I even make contact.
Due in part to both of these preferences, the map script creates a lot of areas that aren't really meant for settlement(city radius of nothing but hills or desert or plains without a river... Also pay heed to the "inspired by Middle Earth", a lot of that was just wasteland with the civ equivalent of barbarians. What I intend to do with starting locations is guarantee they do not end up in those areas, but apart from that, it's survival of the fittest.
I now I think that about does it, next post will hopefully announce a script update
Bartholomew
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2007
- Messages
- 49
Just a quick post of encouragement: this looks like a fantastic map script, though I haven't had a chance to test it.
I love the Erebus script for its mountain ranges and "fantasy" feel, but think it goes too far in isolating factions from one another; I love the standard old pangaea for its guaranteed world wars; I love the Highlands standard script for its, well, mountainy feel. YOUR script looks like it will combine the best of all my favorite. Keep it up!
I love the Erebus script for its mountain ranges and "fantasy" feel, but think it goes too far in isolating factions from one another; I love the standard old pangaea for its guaranteed world wars; I love the Highlands standard script for its, well, mountainy feel. YOUR script looks like it will combine the best of all my favorite. Keep it up!
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
i have to agree with bart here, when you fix these issues this map script will be exceptionally fun to play on.
but i think you need to take more of a look at resource placement that you mentioned. there are just too many resources (did i just say that? i love lots of resources, there must be alot if its too much for me...)
also it would be great if you used the erebus mapscripts civ placement where it cuts forest immediately nest to the start, and makes civs start in their preffered terrain (i just had lanun start in endless plains and ljosalfar in a small desert)
i think you should talk to the guy that did the erbus mapscript if you need a hand, he did an excelent job with it
but i think you need to take more of a look at resource placement that you mentioned. there are just too many resources (did i just say that? i love lots of resources, there must be alot if its too much for me...)
also it would be great if you used the erebus mapscripts civ placement where it cuts forest immediately nest to the start, and makes civs start in their preffered terrain (i just had lanun start in endless plains and ljosalfar in a small desert)
i think you should talk to the guy that did the erbus mapscript if you need a hand, he did an excelent job with it
PotatoOverdose
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2007
- Messages
- 352
On the west side of the plain there were grasslands mixed in with plains, forests, and hills and whatnot. On the east side there were plains as far as the eye can see and one big rectangular desert. It should be noted that I only encountered this specific issue the first time I generated the map. I generated a few more maps just to see what the mapscript can do, and none of them had the hills line issue. Actually, more often than not the map generates pretty reasonable starting locations for most of the civs, although in the case of plains starts, tundra starts, or peninsula+peaks starts it might definitely be good to throw in more resources, otherwise the player/ai suffers from some of the same issues as in the tectonics mapscript or an all plains start on the erebus map script.
cephalo
Deity
The minimap screenshot looks great, but since I'm stuck at work right now I'm wishing I could see more screenshots! Also, rather than take screenshots from the minimap, you might take them from the history of the world screen where it's nice and big.
I like that you are approaching this from a 'looks first' angle. If the map looks great, only then is it worth working out the nut's and bolts for playability.
To that end keep in mind you can use lots of bitmaps that mean different things to help you organize it's functionality. On my maps I use bitmaps for altitude, temperature, moisture or sometimes just to block off areas I consider 'out of play'. An altitude map will prevent you from running rivers uphill for example.
I like that you are approaching this from a 'looks first' angle. If the map looks great, only then is it worth working out the nut's and bolts for playability.
To that end keep in mind you can use lots of bitmaps that mean different things to help you organize it's functionality. On my maps I use bitmaps for altitude, temperature, moisture or sometimes just to block off areas I consider 'out of play'. An altitude map will prevent you from running rivers uphill for example.
Jean Elcard
The Flavournator
The screen shot looks really interesting. I won't have the time to test out your map script till tomorrow, but I'll check it out, that's for certain.
The Erebus civ placement does only work for Erebus because of Cephalo's own climate system. If you want something, that isn't as specific, but works for any map script, I would suggest using FlavourMod's Flavour Start option.
The Erebus civ placement does only work for Erebus because of Cephalo's own climate system. If you want something, that isn't as specific, but works for any map script, I would suggest using FlavourMod's Flavour Start option.
lonkero173
Junior Pythoneer
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 59
@Cephalo
Yes, I've taken a look at your (erebus/creation) script (most usefull for figuring out text strings, functions and whatnot) I currently have three arrays (bitmaps if youwish to call them so), one for altitude, one for moisture and one for rivers
(And the rivers flow uphil btw )
And I approached this from a "get the mountains right" point, everything else is just slammed on in an "inspired by reality" style. Also my script is a good 2k lines shorter than your (creation/erebus), so I've still got work to do...and civ placement will be a new system.
As for map updates, life got in the way...
Yes, I've taken a look at your (erebus/creation) script (most usefull for figuring out text strings, functions and whatnot) I currently have three arrays (bitmaps if youwish to call them so), one for altitude, one for moisture and one for rivers
(And the rivers flow uphil btw
)And I approached this from a "get the mountains right" point, everything else is just slammed on in an "inspired by reality" style. Also my script is a good 2k lines shorter than your (creation/erebus), so I've still got work to do...and civ placement will be a new system.
As for map updates, life got in the way...
lonkero173
Junior Pythoneer
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 59
Just so that no one thinks this project died a sudden death (as my previous post might suggest so), I have most of the smaller issues mentioned earlier fixed (rivers (at least mostly) included 
), but I'll get the "blocked by mountains" thing fixed before I release, as that is the only game breaking problem remaining(rare or not). Starting location redo/fix will be in the release after that, and after that it's up to public demand again..
And again as a side note, If you have any issues with the script, grab a screenshot. It's much easier to fix things when you know exactly what the problem is.
), but I'll get the "blocked by mountains" thing fixed before I release, as that is the only game breaking problem remaining(rare or not). Starting location redo/fix will be in the release after that, and after that it's up to public demand again..And again as a side note, If you have any issues with the script, grab a screenshot. It's much easier to fix things when you know exactly what the problem is.
CarnivalBizarre
Warlord
Just want to post my encouragement to your project here, it sure look as it will be a very very nice map script. I too love erebus but also think it goes way to far in the isolation business, so this will give me some maps to test my offensive skills, hehe.
Great work so far!
Great work so far!
lonkero173
Junior Pythoneer
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 59
New version is out, see the first post. Most notable changes are the guarantee that all areas are accessible, even if only via a tiny chokepoint, and better scaling of the map. Also the map options have been changed, and should be a lot more user friendly. Rivers are mostly fixed, but every now and then a river will stop in the middle of nowhere.
AFAIK there are no game breaking bugs left in the script now.
Also it seems that most feedback is dying out. Does that mean that the map is good enough? Did the thread get buried? Speak up, balancing isn't really my thing etc. so feedback remains welcome.
AFAIK there are no game breaking bugs left in the script now.
Also it seems that most feedback is dying out. Does that mean that the map is good enough? Did the thread get buried? Speak up, balancing isn't really my thing etc. so feedback remains welcome.
JanusTalaiini
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
- Messages
- 340
Is it intentional that mana nodes are extremely rare on this script?
In the games I've played with this so far (standard size, resources set to moderate) There's been at most one single mana node on the entire map.
In the games I've played with this so far (standard size, resources set to moderate) There's been at most one single mana node on the entire map.
![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
last version is simply BRILLIANT, looks beautiful and is fun to play on. thank you
the only things it needs to be perfect now imho, are:
1) X/Y wraps ( cylindrical and toroidal shape )
2) an option to choose if you want to have continents ( so you could choose pangea, some continents, many continents, archipelago ) . I hope it's not hard to achieve, cuz then it would be a joy to play on
this would make the map more unpredictable, which is the only real drawback it has right now ( you always know that sea is west, desert is south, ice north... besides, right now sea is kinda useless since it's not really useful to sail anywhere )
the only things it needs to be perfect now imho, are:
1) X/Y wraps ( cylindrical and toroidal shape )
2) an option to choose if you want to have continents ( so you could choose pangea, some continents, many continents, archipelago ) . I hope it's not hard to achieve, cuz then it would be a joy to play on
this would make the map more unpredictable, which is the only real drawback it has right now ( you always know that sea is west, desert is south, ice north... besides, right now sea is kinda useless since it's not really useful to sail anywhere )
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
@JanusTalaiini: I haven't experienced that problem. I recommend you use Civ4's default resource placement by turning "truly random resources" off, that should work.
lonkero173
Junior Pythoneer
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 59
X/Y wraps will be coming at some stage (I want to deal with the starting positions first), but like I have said previously, they will be a considerable operation (not technically hard thought) and I'm expecting life to keep me a bit busier in the immediate future....any continent/pangea style settings will come at the same time.
Mana nodes should not be especially uncommon with my resource system , but my system somewhat increases the amount of basic food resources. (It really disturbs me when mithril and cows are almost equally common...)(but ill check it in a while, I start new games with the map so often that I never bother to change the default options and thus rarely check my resource system since it seemed to work ok a couple of versions ago...)
Mana nodes should not be especially uncommon with my resource system , but my system somewhat increases the amount of basic food resources. (It really disturbs me when mithril and cows are almost equally common...)(but ill check it in a while, I start new games with the map so often that I never bother to change the default options and thus rarely check my resource system since it seemed to work ok a couple of versions ago...)
If you'd post a few (more & better) screenshots, I'm sure there would be way more feedback.
I'm downloading now, but I've got to finish my old game first (and I'm such a slow player ). But I'm very much looking forward to my next map using your script!
I'm downloading now, but I've got to finish my old game first (and I'm such a slow player
). But I'm very much looking forward to my next map using your script!Just tried it again, it has improved greatly from the last few tries from previous versions. My only issue currently is the total lack of ice terrain in the far north near the edge of the map. Instead the top fourth is one giant uninterrupted field of tundra. An increasing density of ice terrain until the very edge is almost completely ice would help create the illusion of an increasingly colder climate in the far north. Also, for some reason glaciers are being spawned on land in the tundra. While this might be okay if it happened on ice terrain, for tundra to be impassible because it has too much ice on it seems, suboptimal. I attached a screen shot to try to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
As it stands Letum Frigus and the Ring of Carcer will still spawn in nonsensical locations due to lack of ice terrain.
As it stands Letum Frigus and the Ring of Carcer will still spawn in nonsensical locations due to lack of ice terrain.
Attachments
This looks awesome!
I'm sure it needs more tweaking and such, but definitely gonna use this map script for my next game. I have one concern which I hate when I try a new map, and that is desert tiles next to rivers, they have to have floodplains, you expect them to, and (I think) it's standard behavior for all Firaxis map scripts. (I haven't tested this map yet, but I thought I should put it out there)
I'm sure it needs more tweaking and such, but definitely gonna use this map script for my next game. I have one concern which I hate when I try a new map, and that is desert tiles next to rivers, they have to have floodplains, you expect them to, and (I think) it's standard behavior for all Firaxis map scripts. (I haven't tested this map yet, but I thought I should put it out there)
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
wasn't that fixed in BTS patch 3.17?
