A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

[Hydromancerx]

I think you should hold off for now. Like I said before, I would like to to be the one adding some of your changes and tweak them myself too. Some of them are just overkill in needing too many requirements for a single building when you can more easily spread the requirements up over a couple buildings.

Also I am unsure if some of your requirements are necessary. Some could have those buildings without them. But perhaps could have a bonus if they had them. For example (picking at random) a Community Garden would not need flowers but could be enhanced by Flowers rather than requiring it. Other things like fruit, vegetables, etc could be added as well but not as a requirement.

Tools as a resource could perhaps increase the speed of buildings or be required for specific buildings but not nearly every building.

Or take the Paper Maker, why would you need feathers and dye? This is not a scribe's place, this is making paper not writing on it.

In short a lot of your "requirements" should give benefits to the building but not necessarily be required to build them. You have to ask yourself, "what is the minimum needed for this building"?

EDIT: Try to get your list down to say a maximum of ...

Resource A AND (Resource B OR Resource C)

For most buildings that have requirements.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

A huge number of my building revisions involve the usage of the new "Tools" resource; while the three Toolshop buildings can come later, the actual resource itself would need to be implemented before I can make most of these changes. The Projects and Units would also need to be able to require multiple buildings and resources, necessitating new tags.

What stats do you want for tools? I can make a quick one up for you to use as a start. We can always modify as it is needed.

Units can require multiple buildings and resources already, I also missed that addition.

Projects do require new tags.

Edit I still have not had a chance to go through your list in full.

 

[Praetyre]

Just a blank "Tools" resource akin to Stone Tools would be dandy.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Just a blank "Tools" resource akin to Stone Tools would be dandy.

I'll do it tomorrow, it is getting a bit late and I just found a couple of minor bugs. I have also done my second read of your suggestions and need to sleep on some of my responses.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

Please don't just add the tools requirement to every building and unit like you are proposing. There should be a better way such as to only the Carpenter or Mason, etc. Something very basic that help enhance buildings already.

For instance for many of the buildings you don't need tools to build them, but it sure makes it easier to do.

In short please have what you want to change go through me first. If you want I can go one by one and tell you what I think.

Just please don't try to rush these changes since I feel so strongly about them. I mean a good majority of them I made or drastically altered. I just don't want you undoing my work since many have good reasons why they are the way they are.

 

[Praetyre]

If you have the time, blank, placeholder versions of the resources produced by my new buildings would also be dandy.

DOUBLEEDIT: Nvm, was due to an unplaced tag.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see you there Hydro. I'm not touching any of the Tools related changes yet, only seeing if I can get things like turning some National Wonders into regular buildings working. I will not push any of these changes to SVN without the consent of their owners (those who the modules are assigned to), and am certainly open to further discussion on the subject of my building plan. As for having Paper requiring Dye and Feathers; that was actually an attempt at simplification on my part, ironically enough. I originally had some of the buildings needing Paper also require Dye and Feathers for usage purpose (such as Confucian Academy), with the modern Paper Factory not needing those modern writing utensils have been invented.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here lets start with the first one ...

Accelerator
Req Resources: Computers, Concrete, Furniture, Steel, Tools

First of all thats way too many resources. According to the Civpedia they also Require the University. So rather than say require computers lets have it require the Computer Network building (maybe).

Concrete and Steel are somewhat understandable. Furniture I think may be overkill in that we would assume they have some sort of furniture. And like I said Tools may be better linked to a more core building so you don't have to add it to every building.

EDIT: Or perhaps instead Computers could give +1 or something.

The furniture stuff is what is really bothering me. Its almost like requiring say a light blub resources for every building. Or Clothing since everyone wears clothes. There are some general things we should assume they have.

EDIT2: When making these how much did you look at the stats they already had? What was your process when making your list? Also how long did it take you?

 

[AIAndy]

I will not push any of these changes to SVN without the consent of their owners (those who the modules are assigned to), and am certainly open to further discussion on the subject of my building plan.

If your module folder is loaded near the end you can make modular changes and push those to the SVN but just not have them active so whoever wants to try them out can activate them or leave them off.

 

[Praetyre]

So rather than say require computers lets have it require the Computer Network building (maybe).

That's certainly a possibility; the reason I had it requiring Computers is that I took the Computer Network building to represent widespread public access to computers, not internal academic networks like those used in the early days of the Internet.

Furniture I think may be overkill in that we would assume they have some sort of furniture.

At the time I made this, I didn't realise Universities needed Libraries. Because of said requirement, needing Furniture for Accelerator is redundant. Gone it is.

And like I said Tools may be better linked to a more core building so you don't have to add it to every building.

I originally considered this (the line of buildings it would have started would have Construction Firm as it's modern counterpart), but I decided to go with resources for reasons of flexibility and realism, so that the player could build his tools in one city (I'm leaning towards having the toolshops produce multiple Tools, like the Broadway/Hollywood/Rock N Roll trinity does with their Hit X resources) and ship them to another rather than having to plonk down contractors offices to build Boondocks in Podunk, USA.

In any case, though, this falls under building redundancy again. Off we go.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If your module folder is loaded near the end you can make modular changes and push those to the SVN but just not have them active so whoever wants to try them out can activate them or leave them off.

I would like to work with Praetyre to make changes to files in my mod folder. I mean if we are going to do these changes I might as well be apart of them. Also with 2 brains working on it we can come up with solutions that the other might not think of.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I would like to work with Praetyre to make changes to files in my mod folder. I mean if we are going to do these changes I might as well be apart of them. Also with 2 brains working on it we can come up with solutions that the other might not think of.

I would rather they weren't. I don't want the minimum population required for buildings fiasco again. It is bad enough that we still have that monstrosity.

BtW I am not sure that you can change a wonder/national wonder into a normal building using WoC. I think I tried to do it once.

 

[Praetyre]

EDIT: Or perhaps instead Computers could give +1 or something.

The furniture stuff is what is really bothering me. Its almost like requiring say a light blub resources for every building. Or Clothing since everyone wears clothes. There are some general things we should assume they have.

Only reason I suggested the Furniture resource was because of the Furniture Factory/Workshop buildings; it seemed a logical good for these things to produce and a one with wide and interesting applications in both C2C and RL. Light bulbs are too specific a resource to have any serious application in this way, and most modern buildings need Glassware and Electricity so the resource math is done for you on that one. As for clothing;

Spoiler :

Joking aside, the buildings represent the infrastructure and technology required for their operation, not the people. Barring certain rare exceptions like astronauts, biohazard teams or firemen, there's no necessary reason that men in feather boas, loincloths and Florentine hosiery couldn't run a quantum physics lab; most of these things come down to social custom and convention and derive themselves from the guild and trade related costumery of feudal days.

EDIT2: When making these how much did you look at the stats they already had? What was your process when making your list? Also how long did it take you?

Are you talking about the bonuses to construction speed certain resources give? I did try to account for that within the context of the Hellenic and some of the health buildings by making Marble one of the OR options for building materials, meaning you can carve raw marble and get a higher production rate than you can with simple bricklaying. My process initially was going through the Civilopedia and copying down the various names, then thinking about the resources (out of those that existed in C2C and the ones I suggested) would be required to create the infrastructure for such a facility. In some cases, copying-and-pasting occured so that very similar structures would possess the same requirements (some of the modern housing buildings follow this pattern, as do the farm buildings, which need only Stone Tools OR Tools). The list itself took me about two weeks in total, spending several hours a day researching and thinking through the logical implications of my requirement "templates".

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

Nice changes to the Accelerator. That seems more plausible. I still think the Computers resource should give a bonus to it and not be required. Concrete and Steel are acceptable for now unless we find out its redundant as well.

Moving on ...

Acupuncturists's Shop
Req Resources: Bone OR Copper OR Iron OR Steel OR Titanium
Req Building: Trading Post

Mind you this also requires the Culture (Asian) building. I see where you going with the Trading Post for the Commercial style buildings. I agree with this and was actually something I thought about add in the future to buildings.

Adding Copper, Iron, and Titanium to the Steel or Bone. Hmm. According to wikipedia Koreans used Copper, so that's ok, but Iron seems like its dangerous causing say Tetanus. And Titanium is such a new resource I just did not add it yet. So everything but the Iron I think.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I would rather they weren't. I don't want the minimum population required for buildings fiasco again. It is bad enough that we still have that monstrosity.

BtW I am not sure that you can change a wonder/national wonder into a normal building using WoC. I think I tried to do it once.

This would be "reasonable" changes where I either was already going to do that or am persuaded to say "your right that would make more sense".

 

[Hydromancerx]

Joking aside, the buildings represent the infrastructure and technology required for their operation, not the people. Barring certain rare exceptions like astronauts, biohazard teams or firemen, there's no necessary reason that men in feather boas, loincloths and Florentine hosiery couldn't run a quantum physics lab; most of these things come down to social custom and convention and derive themselves from the guild and trade related costumery of feudal days.

Are you talking about the bonuses to construction speed certain resources give? I did

1. I think the same could go for furniture. Why can't lab tech sit on the floor? Likewise by the time you can build one of these and you still haven't acquired future in some way must be very rare.

2. No I am talking about say with the Zoo where ay Deer resource gives +1% except in this case computer could give +1%.

EDIT: We can go over more later. Cya.

 

[Praetyre]

I would rather they weren't. I don't want the minimum population required for buildings fiasco again. It is bad enough that we still have that monstrosity.

Well then, it's a damn good thing my suggestions regarding thresholds will have to wait until AIAndy XMLizes some of the data for the settler units. What was this fiasco, exactly?

BtW I am not sure that you can change a wonder/national wonder into a normal building using WoC. I think I tried to do it once.

Way I did it was by altering the BuildingClassInfos.xml so that some building classes had -1 iMaxPlayerInstances rather than 1 (or in some cases 5). I thought WoC was a tool for converting graphics and leaderheads; how would such a conversion process work without affecting all of the buildings in a file?

Nice changes to the Accelerator. That seems more plausible. I still think the Computers resource should give a bonus to it and not be required.

One thing I forgot to mention that might give an insight into how I conceive of resources; I see Computers as not merely representing PC's and their assorted paraphanelia in the form of mouses, keyboards, speakers, printers etc. I see Computers as being representative of electronics in general, be it the whirring vacuum tube powered dinosaurs of the 1950's through 1970's, the myriad bells and whistles that make up the brain of a Predator drone or the overpriced hipster accessories the late Steve Jobs helped design.

You are right that your typical (if such an adjective is possible in said context) particle accelerator wouldn't require the latest version of Windows 7 to run without turning the scientists into their constituent strings; however, the very nature of quantum physics requires extremely precise and microscopic recording and measuring technology to so much as hope to get a picture of how atom #4,677,413,445,909,143 is doing this nanosecond. This is the reason that much of physics remained theoretical up until the Cold War, and why Superstring Theory comes at the very end of the Modern era.

Concrete and Steel are acceptable for now unless we find out its redundant as well.

Ordinarily, these would indeed be redundant thanks to University, but for obvious reasons you can't run a particle accelerator made out of brick and mortar or, Amaterasu forbid, lumber if your idea of a good time doesn't include recreating the Nicholson Electroplating Plant explosion of 1947.

Mind you this also requires the Culture (Asian) building.

I'm fine with leaving that requirement in for now; I didn't list it initially because things like the Tomahawk Thrower were universally available (with decidedly Amerindian art) at the time. Should I be lucky enough to get my culture plan through, of course, this building may have to be made Han-only (since cultures are resources and (X OR X) AND (X OR X) doesn't jive).

I see where you going with the Trading Post for the Commercial style buildings. I agree with this and was actually something I thought about add in the future to buildings.

This was a pretty major component of my plans from the beginning, and a big help in keeping overall resource needs down while giving greater spotlight to a line of buildings I thought needed more love. Glad to hear you like it.

Adding Copper, Iron, and Titanium to the Steel or Bone. Hmm. According to wikipedia Koreans used Copper, so that's ok, but Iron seems like its dangerous causing say Tetanus. And Titanium is such a new resource I just did not add it yet. So everything but the Iron I think.

I just went with whatever resources I thought could be used to make sharp, thin implements. I'm no medical expert, but why would copper not carry the same risks as iron as far as disease goes? There's certainly plenty of iron in most healthy human's blood.

 

[Koshling]

@Praetyre - would you like me to add you as a contributor on the SVN so you can push changes directly? If so I'll need your username on sourceforge.net....

 

[Praetyre]

I'd be glad to. The username tis the same as here, but with a lowercase p.

 

[AIAndy]

Well then, it's a damn good thing my suggestions regarding thresholds will have to wait until AIAndy XMLizes some of the data for the settler units.

Which data do you want in XML?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Which data do you want in XML?

Currently Colonists and Pioneers get a set of buildings automatically built in cities they found. It is done in RoMEventManager.py.

I would like to change this anyway to extend to all settler units. I started a discussion on this here.

The upshot is that it would be good if settler units could give buildings based on the technologies researched, resources in the new neighbourhood and the cultural imperatives of the nation.

For example a Tribe may give free tide pools in a coastal city. A settler may give a free scribal school or barracks depending on if their cultural imperative has been science or military based.

Edit One big problem I have with these proposals is that I almost never get obsidian so never get Stone Tools. Which is required in these proposals for many buildings.