A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

[Praetyre]

Animal farms - Fences
[snip]

Well, if all you need is a h... err, I mean a stone shovel, then I'll be all to happy to remove the lumber requirements.

Brahmin Libraries - where does the information come from that is stored there in the first place? hence scribes.

Ahh, I see where you are coming from now. Very well, Scribes it is.

Cave Painting - this one seems to be based on the Lacsaux paintings. Which while great are the only reminents of the art form left in Europe. The art form has the name "Cave Painting" but most are not in caves at all. They are on rock faces. This is so from Scandinavia to South Africa.

Forgive my ignorance, then; the Stone Age is not my strong suit as far as historical knowledge goes. I'll fix the requirements now.

Homing Pigion Coops, Dove Cots etc have been built just out of clay with a few sticks (not lumber) for perches.

In that case, would Tools AND Common Clay OR Lumber work well?

Paper maker - you can make paper from cloth (usually rags) but prayers are written on silk cloth to fly in the wind.

Could you cite a few examples of this technique in action? I'm still having trouble picturing it or thinking of any societies that have used this technique; closest thing that comes to mind is Buddhist prayer flags, which are just plain old dyed flags, not used for recording or calligraphy.

Paved Roads - Scandinavians used paved roads made from tree trunks. Especially in their trade ports like Dublin and Jorvik (York).

Alright then, it's in as an option.

Printer's Workshop - the printing plates/blocks were made of wood (woodcuts) and lead (lead type used for books)

The problem with this one is that I can't have (Paper OR Wood) AND (Dye OR Lead), not that Wood would need anything but tools to carve anyway. A woodcut building could prove interesting though; maybe a little bonus for the Oriental cultures like Acupuncture (incidentally, quite a few of these older or naturalistic health buildings are still used in a therapeutic context today; I see the odd acupuncture clinic walking around the heavily Asian shopping district in my city. Might be an idea to reduce the bonuses with modern health rather than completely eliminating them).

Edit I would prefer national wonders for some of the late industrial resource making buildings because not every town produces tyres for example.

Yes, but not every town has a University either; these sorts of things are why we have the size limits system. You can only have one Department of Energy or Supreme Court, while there is no logical reason to arbitrarily limit the number of tire factories a player can build (and you'll see it would particularily deleterious under my plan due to the new unit requirements).

Chop Shop
One thing I must disagree with is the Chop Shop requiring automobiles. The point of them is that you can get free "Parts" resource without needing the resources needed to make them. Since Automobiles need Parts, there would be no need to have a Chop Shop since you already have parts. In other words you sacrifice your safety for the ability to get parts.

Ah, the good old chicken and egg question! I see Chop Shops as taking in Automobiles traded from other players and converting them into Parts so that the player's war machine has some extra resources to burn, on top of adding utility to the automobile resource in more distant cities. It may be a bit moot though, since DH says he's going to revamp the crime buildings in a decidedly different manner.

Fishing Traps
As for the Fishing Traps and other traps, I can see like the generic Fishing Trap requiring Baskets but I don't know about the other more specific ones. For instance Lobster Traps are generally made of Wood, Fishing Nets would not be baskets at all but nets. I am thinking that perhaps the Fisherman's Hut should produce Nets and thus require rope. That would give it a unique use different from the Fishmonger.

Nets would only really have application for those specific buildings though, while rope (which can also be used for the fishing lines proper) has a much wider range of uses. Not being an expert on trapping, I assumed lobsters could be trapped with simple lures on land, but if this is not the case, I'll be all too happy to tweak the requirements.

Railroad Station
In the way I have it set up Railroads represent the Coal Powered type of railroad while, the Monorail station represents the new Electric style railroad (plus magnetic levitation). Thus I do not think the Railroad should require electricity.

Ah, that makes sense. I guess I tend to think of monorails as showy high tech tourist attractions rather than serious methods of transportation. Should the Monorail Station be moved back to Manufacturing then, given widespread usage of electric trains dates back to the beginning of the Modern era?

Bow Strings
Since the Rope Maker can come from Leather or Cloth (hemp, wool, silk, etc) I think rope should be a requirement. Have say Wood and Rope and then the Bowmaker could work. Note that say an arrow maker could be wood, feathers and then choices for the arrowheads,. Bolts could be even different.

I have bows and arrows as one resource for simplicity's sake; there's really little point in keeping them separate when the two resources are otherwise inseparable for all intents and purposes. It's also vague enough that I can use Archery Equipment for weirder things like ballistas or crossbows as well.

I would also like to be the one to apply your ideas to the buildings. Not only will it give me a better peace of mind but it should allow me to know the stats of the buildings better. And will reduce conflict. So as I change them perhaps you could check them off your list as done so we can keep track of what needs to be done and what still needs to be addressed.

My working copy of the files includes some very conservative alterations to a few of your buildings (all of which are listed in the National Wonders subheading), largely stuff like having manufacturing buildings need Factories and changing them into regular buildings rather than national wonders (though that change is in the main BuildingClass file, not your subfolder). If you want to help in this regard, go ahead; I'll shoot over the files so you can have a look over my changes and make sure I haven't FUBARed anything.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ah, the good old chicken and egg question! I see Chop Shops as taking in Automobiles traded from other players and converting them into Parts so that the player's war machine has some extra resources to burn, on top of adding utility to the automobile resource in more distant cities. It may be a bit moot though, since DH says he's going to revamp the crime buildings in a decidedly different manner.

I think if you can afford to import Automobiles then you are probably not in need of a Chop Shop. This is the illegal method of stealing automobiles from other countries for their parts.

Ah, that makes sense. I guess I tend to think of monorails as showy high tech tourist attractions rather than serious methods of transportation. Should the Monorail Station be moved back to Manufacturing then, given widespread usage of electric trains dates back to the beginning of the Modern era?

I would say no since railroads should have some time where its the only rail type. Note that Gas Stations come soon after so there are alternatives to Railroads.

I have bows and arrows as one resource for simplicity's sake; there's really little point in keeping them separate when the two resources are otherwise inseparable for all intents and purposes. It's also vague enough that I can use Archery Equipment for weirder things like ballistas or crossbows as well.

Fair enough. I think we both agree that specific weapons should be required for different units. For examples Bow & Arrows for Archers and Rifles for Riflemen, etc.

My working copy of the files includes some very conservative alterations to a few of your buildings (all of which are listed in the National Wonders subheading), largely stuff like having manufacturing buildings need Factories and changing them into regular buildings rather than national wonders (though that change is in the main BuildingClass file, not your subfolder). If you want to help in this regard, go ahead; I'll shoot over the files so you can have a look over my changes and make sure I haven't FUBARed anything.

I would be happy to look at them. Probably the easiest way for me to change things is to do one of my sub-mods at a time. For instance I think I might alter my Seafood mod first and address the nets and traps stuff we have been discussing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Hydro, Defeats the purpose doesn't it. If it was in Praetyre's mod I could just turn it on/off and immediately see the effect on my current game. If it is put in your mods then I have to figure out which versions of the SVN I have to use.

Buildings

Paper making - you make paper from cloth same way as you do fro trees. You chop it up small to get the individual fibers etc.

Printer's workshop - Paper AND Dye AND (Wood or Lead)?

National Wonders

I prefer a national wonder that produces multiple of a resource to having each city have the ability to build a resource in it.

Cave Dwelling - Only if the tech also requires it and there is a way around the tech. Or there is some other way to get an early golden age.

National TV-Station - doesn't the BBC predate widely available computers or is the computer tech not the resource

Great Wonders

The move of some wonders to religion wonders does have a hampering effect on the other religions The Apostolic Palace being Christian is one.

Abu Simbel - hills and river not peak

Human Rights Declaration - Code of laws is too early perhaps UN or similar. (its another thing the US took from Aus/NZ)

The Apostolic Palace - State religion cathedral building. This building has too big a game impact to be restricted to only one religion.

The Great Wall - Tools and Lumber, boost to build with bricks

The Oracle - Are suggesting it become a Hellenic religion Wonder and we add in new oracles for the other religions. The Oracle was there before there were any buildings. It was because of its success as an oracle that the building was built. The town grew up around it to support the oracles and tourist trade.

The Pyramids - Good, it will stop crippling my economy. What does it give instead?

Theatre of Dionysus - are you suggesting we have ones for the other nations that have similar tradition of drama?

Versaille - having this in the capital defeats the purpose of the building. iirc the distance to palace is actually distance to nearest palace or palace like building of which Versaille is one.

West Point - should be a national wonder or it and others should be fixed with a culture. Although it may be better to have it related to some cultural imperative instead.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok here is what I changed ...

Fish Traps
Req Resources: Baskets

Fisherman's Hut
Req Resources: Rope and (all seafood resouces)
Provides: Nets

Fishmonger
Req Resources: Raw Fish OR Shelfish

Bonus Seafood
- Anchovy Nets = Nets
- Clam Diggers = None
- Crab Traps = Wood
- Eel Traps = Baskets
- Lobster Traps = Wood
- Pearl Divers = None
- Salmon Nets = Nets
- Sardine Nets = Nets
- Shrimp Nets = Nets
- Squid Nets = Nets
- Tuna Nets = Nets

--------

- Whaler's Dock = Lumber (Saved for later when there is a Lumber resource)

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro, Defeats the purpose doesn't it. If it was in Praetyre's mod I could just turn it on/off and immediately see the effect on my current game. If it is put in your mods then I have to figure out which versions of the SVN I have to use.

Well the difference is what he would change vs what I would change. Seeing the effects of his changes would not give me an idea on how I would change them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

1. Please check off those buildings I did in post #64.

2. I think i have a better solution for the Tools. Rather than have many buildings require tools you have 3 types of tools ...

Stone Tools = +1
Tools = +2
Power Tool = +3

The reasoning is that many things do not need professionally crafted tools and could be made my improvised tools made of other objects.

This would greatly reduce your list and free up spots for other resource requirements.

What do you think?

 

[Praetyre]

@Praetyre

1. Please check off those buildings I did in post #64.

My checklist copy is seperate and confined to my harddrive; since it handles somewhat seperate things, I'll check off your stuff using different borders.

I like your Tools solution, partly because it allows for greater differentiation among different kinds of tools to a greater degree. On the other hand though, what about wonders and more modern buildings, which tend to require specialized, professional equipment to construct? And I don't want to downplay the role Stone Tools played in the Stone Age either, nor their impact on Neolithic agriculture. I'd prefer to meet you halfway by needing tools for wonders/projects, high-level housing and some of the more advanced or high-pop needing pre-Industrial buildings and having post-Industrial buildings need Tools (or Nanobots, in future cases).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well Stone Tools do eventually go obsolete. i am not sure if normal tools ever would since some never need to become power tools. But we should assume that if you say are building a building that has specialized tools then that would be included in the production of the building.

IIRC we only get so many requirement spots in a building so we can't have every possible choice. That's why I tend to lean to either objects which are totally obvious that they would be needed (ex. Flour for a Bakery) or assume that they would be included in the production of the building (ex. Ovens and Cooking Tools for the Bakery).

My checklist copy is seperate and confined to my harddrive; since it handles somewhat seperate things, I'll check off your stuff using different borders.

Oh. I just though you could just add a column to the doc with like an X or Done sort of thing.

 

[Hydromancerx]

High Walls
Why would you not want Stone to be a possible requirements for them? I thought Brick or Stone was a good choice.

Animal Farms
I don't think they need fences. Some nomads just have a herder and fence/pens what so ever. I do not think any of them should have to have building materials. Also there are some tribes in Africa that say use spiky brambles as a fence rather than a proper fence.

Prehistoric Buildings
Due to the limitation of discovered buildings and any combination of which path you take I think that buildings that you have a a requirement "Prehistoric Housing" should not even need that. For instance a Stone Worker's Hut or Storyteller's Hut should not require prehistoric housing. Remember at this time proper divisions or zones are not in place yet. So the Storyteller may live in the Storyteller's Hut. its only when you get to say City Planning that such divisions should be enforced.

 

[Praetyre]

Well Stone Tools do eventually go obsolete. i am not sure if normal tools ever would since some never need to become power tools. But we should assume that if you say are building a building that has specialized tools then that would be included in the production of the building.

Wouldn't the Tools resource then represent those specialized/advanced tools, though? Either they're pro-grade tools and would be needed in such projects, or generic tools and we're back to my original plan.

IIRC we only get so many requirement spots in a building so we can't have every possible choice. That's why I tend to lean to either objects which are totally obvious that they would be needed (ex. Flour for a Bakery) or assume that they would be included in the production of the building (ex. Ovens and Cooking Tools for the Bakery).

I am not aware of any such limited resource choice for buildings beyond the inability to create an (X OR X) AND (X OR X) dynamic. And if there are, a relative minority of my buildings would be affected compared with all those with several possible OR resources or those that require infrastructure buildings.

In general, if a resource doesn't exist in-game, it's irrelevant for the purposes of my plan. If a resource does exist in-game, I need to define what it actually presents for gameplay purposes, such as how Glassware=Any product made of refined glass not covered by other resources or how Computers=Post Atomic electronics. That's what I'm meaning with this whole tools business; I'd rather the toolshops simply provide a production or construction bonus of their own as opposed to putting in a while new resource for it if it'd prove unnecessary in the grand scheme of things; the original reason I had tools was as a logical extension of Stone Tools.

Oh. I just though you could just add a column to the doc with like an X or Done sort of thing.

Either's fine by me; if a new column means greater readability and visibility, I'm all for it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Advanced Shielding
Rather than Computers AND Semiconductors AND Nanobots AND (Nanotubes OR Steel OR Titanium) I think these can all be covered in the Arcologies. Thus all they need are the Arcology requirements. Thus it would be redundant.

Aerospace Complex
Computers AND Concrete AND Furniture AND Glassware AND Nanotubes AND Steel AND Tools

This seems like we could have some better building. Which buildings I am unsure of. Should make some of the resource requirements redundant.

Agora
Tools AND (Marble OR Stone)

Like I said before we can avoid the use of Tools. Marble OR Stone sounds fine.

 

[Praetyre]

Advanced Shielding
Rather than Computers AND Semiconductors AND Nanobots AND (Nanotubes OR Steel OR Titanium) I think these can all be covered in the Arcologies. Thus all they need are the Arcology requirements. Thus it would be redundant.

Whoops, didn't notice it was part of the Arcology line. Back to normal it goes, then.

Aerospace Complex
Computers AND Concrete AND Furniture AND Glassware AND Nanotubes AND Steel AND Tools

This seems like we could have some better building. Which buildings I am unsure of. Should make some of the resource requirements redundant.

How about Computers AND Nanotubes with Military Airbase as a requirement?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Wouldn't the Tools resource then represent those specialized/advanced tools, though? Either they're pro-grade tools and would be needed in such projects, or generic tools and we're back to my original plan.

Well I could see a most say a Carpenter's Workshop or Brick Mason but practically every single building.

I am not aware of any such limited resource choice for buildings beyond the inability to create an (X OR X) AND (X OR X) dynamic. And if there are, a relative minority of my buildings would be affected compared with all those with several possible OR resources or those that require infrastructure buildings.

When I put in the Fishing Hut to have Rope AND (Fish OR Crab OR Lobster OR Clam OR Shrimp OR Pearls) the Pearls did not list. I am not sure if I hit the resource limit but for some reason it would not list the 6th resource.

Also I am not as sure on how to have the code do more than 2 ANDs.

 

[Praetyre]

Whoa, people are a lot more active in the US (and Australia, but that makes a tad more sense) lately than normal... I'll try and reply to these two posts by DH and Hydro that I missed;

Paper making - you make paper from cloth same way as you do fro trees. You chop it up small to get the individual fibers etc.

Very well, in it goes.

Printer's workshop - Paper AND Dye AND (Wood or Lead)?

If you have dye, why would you need lead?

I prefer a national wonder that produces multiple of a resource to having each city have the ability to build a resource in it.

Well, there's plenty of resource-producing buildings already, so I don't think it would unbalance things too much, especially given that some of the requirements themselves may be quite rare.

Cave Dwelling - Only if the tech also requires it and there is a way around the tech. Or there is some other way to get an early golden age.

Perhaps having it sped up by Caves would be a better option?

National TV-Station - doesn't the BBC predate widely available computers or is the computer tech not the resource

That building has since been changed to only require Offices AND Broadcast Tower OR Communications Tower. Sorry for not giving you a heads up on that.

The move of some wonders to religion wonders does have a hampering effect on the other religions The Apostolic Palace being Christian is one.

There is precedent for it, though; the Madrassa has been made Islamic and the Brahmin Library Hindu. Same thing for King Richard's Crusade and Holy See Library for Christianity (though I think a "Saladin's Jihad" or equivalent building would go well for Islam).

Abu Simbel - hills and river not peak

Abu Simbel may have been built near a river, but as far as I am aware the river played no inherent role in it's construction. Hills OR Peak could do fine; reason I have them is because the structure was carved out of them.

Human Rights Declaration - Code of laws is too early perhaps UN or similar. (its another thing the US took from Aus/NZ)

This is a special case, so I feel obliged to link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_of_Cyrus

The Apostolic Palace - State religion cathedral building. This building has too big a game impact to be restricted to only one religion.

That sounds like a good compromise to me. I'd add the Free Church civic on top of that so that your religion can have independent political power.

The Great Wall - Tools and Lumber, boost to build with bricks

Heh, I actually built the Earthen Great Wall in the relic known as ROTMK lately. That sounds fine.

The Oracle - Are suggesting it become a Hellenic religion Wonder and we add in new oracles for the other religions. The Oracle was there before there were any buildings. It was because of its success as an oracle that the building was built. The town grew up around it to support the oracles and tourist trade.

I know some animistic Oriental faiths have oracles, but are any of them truly as prominent in their own traditions as the Hellenstic one? As for it's distance, that would apply to the Shaolin Temple and the Satellites as well; not all buildings are literally in the city limits, whatever those are for what could be a nomadic tribe of 50 people or a metropolis with tens of millions.

The Pyramids - Good, it will stop crippling my economy. What does it give instead?

I'm still utterly mystified as to how that one got in. How about a free Mausoleum in every city?

Theatre of Dionysus - are you suggesting we have ones for the other nations that have similar tradition of drama?

This is pretty similar to the Oracle; I've heard of Asiatic cultural festivals and drama traditions, but not in a particular religious vein. If there's evidence for this, I'll take a closer look at it and consider dropping the Hellenism requirement.

Versaille - having this in the capital defeats the purpose of the building. iirc the distance to palace is actually distance to nearest palace or palace like building of which Versaille is one.

Sorry, it was nearly 3 AM when I made this one and I was doing it as part of the "Palace" line. I'll removed the requirement.

Ok here is what I changed ...

Fish Traps
Req Resources: Baskets

Why not Baskets OR Rope?

Fisherman's Hut
Req Resources: Rope and (all seafood resouces)
Provides: Nets

Any thoughts on the building requirements?

Fishmonger
Req Resources: Raw Fish OR Shelfish

As above, so below, as they say. Stone Tools in this case would be needed to gut and prepare the fish properly. No necessary objection to the resource requirements otherwise, and question about building requirements also applies here.

- Crab Traps = Wood
- Lobster Traps = Wood

Why not Baskets?

 

[Hydromancerx]

How about Computers AND Nanotubes with Military Airbase as a requirement?

That sounds better however it seems to replace the Military Airbase. So maybe requires it and then replaces it?

Airfield
Req Concrete AND Glassware AND Steel AND Tools

So Tools aside I am not sure if it needs anything. Remember this is not an airport but basically a landing strip, which could be as simple as a cleared dirt strip. In short these should fit more to the Airport but not the Airfield.

Airport
Concrete AND Furniture AND Glassware AND Steel AND Tools

Not counting the tools or furniture I think the rest make some sense. However I wonder how it works in the context of the text tree. Can you get Aviation before you discover Steel (Steel) or Civil Engineering (Cement)?

*looks closer* looks like Steel is on the Tech path of Aviation so that works out. Looks like Civil Engineering comes much earlier so you should probably research that by the time you have Aviation. So cool!

Animal Snare Traps
Rope AND (Stone Tools or Tools)

Ok a few things not even on the tools issue. First I Animal Snare Trap would go obsolete before you could make Tools.

Animal Domestication (When Animal Snare Traps go obsolete) -> Sedentary Lifestyle -> Agriculture -> Pottery -> Mining -> Copper Working (When Tools become available)

So yeah I agree with the Rope requirement at least.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Why not Baskets OR Rope?

Because they are Traps not nets. Also Nets have not been invented yet.

Any thoughts on the building requirements?

It would not need anything other than a Coastal city. Basically the Fisherman's Hut turns into the "Net Weaver" or "Fishing Gear Shop". All other stats went over to the Fishmonger. Please take a look at how I changed the Fishmonger and Fisherman's Hut on the SVN.

As above, so below, as they say. Stone Tools in this case would be needed to gut and prepare the fish properly. No necessary objection to the resource requirements otherwise, and question about building requirements also applies here.

I don't think it would need a building requirement since any building needed would already be covered through what resources they produce.

Why not Baskets?

Maybe, however Lobster Traps are usually made out of slats of wood or more recently wire and wood. Crab traps on the other hand, or should say crab pots can be metal or even nets around a frame. For simplicities sake I just make it the same as the lobster.

 

[Praetyre]

That sounds better however it seems to replace the Military Airbase. So maybe requires it and then replaces it?

Sounds like a plan.

So Tools aside I am not sure if it needs anything. Remember this is not an airport but basically a landing strip, which could be as simple as a cleared dirt strip. In short these should fit more to the Airport but not the Airfield.

I guess I was thinking of it like I thought of the small local airports in SimCity 4, and as a sort of pre-Computers airport. If that's what its meant to be, I'm ok with defaulting it.

Airport
Concrete AND Furniture AND Glassware AND Steel AND Tools

Not counting the tools or furniture I think the rest make some sense. [snip]

The Furniture is representative of waiting rooms and air traffic control chairs; I can't imagine anyone pulling the shifts these guys do standing up unless they're part giraffe or something (note: this is not an idea for the Biopunk age )

Ok a few things not even on the tools issue. First I Animal Snare Trap would go obsolete before you could make Tools.

So yeah I agree with the Rope requirement at least.

Well it's a moot point if we take out Tools in that context anyhow. I'll alter it just in case.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok I found a problem with the Animals Traps. If you have it require ropes then you cannot make them because ropes require cloth or leather. Leather comes way later at tanning and you have to be super lucky to make cloth so early. So its better if its left as it is.

This is a case where game functionality trumps realism.

EDIT: Which is another reason why I don't want Tools to be required because if you don't have Stone, Obsidian, Copper or Iron then your screwed. This is the same problem we had for the more strict Shipwright requirements. While not "easy" you can at least build a shipwright a majority of the time.

 

[Praetyre]

Wiki sez that the earliest ropes were made out of plant fibre; perhaps the Rope Maker's Hut should be sped up greatly by Cloth/Leather (like, say, 50%+) but not absolutely require any resources proper?

Also, I forgot to set the Barley and Bean farms to no longer require Baskets when I reversed on that particular experiment/course. Tis fixed now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Wiki sez that the earliest ropes were made out of plant fibre; perhaps the Rope Maker's Hut should be sped up greatly by Cloth/Leather (like, say, 50%+) but not absolutely require any resources proper?

That is more reasonable that it just helps speed up the production. However its such a cheap building would such a benefit even be worth it?