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A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Praetyre, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I think we should wait on the free buildings from Settler units. I would actually like to have them NOT make the buildings you can build and instead build a non buildable building such as ...

    BoHS = N/A
    Tribe = N/A
    Settler = Settler's Camp
    Colonist = Colonial Outpost
    Pioneer = Pioneer's Fort

    These buildings would be powerful in that they could help kick start to production, growth and culture of a new city but would still allow you to have to build the constructable buildings.

    In addition I would like to make some guild/union buildings that give free buildings to every city. This in turn would mean that the Settler units would not even need to make those anyways.

    EDIT: What file determines what buildings say a Colonist or Pioneer builds?
     
  2. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    The question is how to express that in XML.

    Obsidian placement rules make it hard to place for the map scripts so if obsidian is more important, make it possible to put it on more types of plots.
     
  3. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I would have thought it is a new boolean tags on buildings. Tag "free to new city at tech", requirements are the same as building the building in the first place with the following two exception. Precursor not needed and resources need not to be connected if available to the capital city or in the fat cross. These are at build only.
     
  4. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    See first line in the comment you quoted.
     
  5. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Yeah I was stupid and then SO showed me where it was.
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Some comments on the buildings. Firstly it is surprising how many I agree with.

    All animal farms - I don't see the need for lumber. Traditionally ditches, dry stone walls and woven fences have done this task. As have earth mounds.

    Brahmin Library - I would require a scribal school rather than a library. Isn't the Brahmin Library a high caste thing where as a library is more general public. The rich always get good stuff before the rest. That is why the get culled in revolutions.

    Butchery - herd buildings as an or requirement?

    Cave Painting - strongly dissagre unless you add a new building "Rock Art" which requires not-caves, has the same stats and has a similar wonder Djildri Rock Art which provides science as well.

    Chop shop and other "crime" buildings - I would like to remove this one and make it a proper crime building. One that takes avay from the nation, can only be built by Bad People and requires police action on the part of the city to get rid of it.

    Christian Temple, Dairy Barn and others - pottery in place of glassware or as an OR requirement to it.

    Dog Kennels - these can only be built by wolves. kennels is probably the wrong word but the meaning of this building is probably a dog breeder and should be required for all the specialist dog breeders.

    Earth wall - why bricks? Much of The Great Wall is rammed earth, lumber used as formwork yes but bricks?

    Eel Traps should require baskets after all they are a form of basket.

    Fletcher's workshop - hides rather than rope.

    Forge and Foundry - charcoal OR coal - in the later game charcoal becomes obsolete

    Homing Pigeon Coop (and other bird buildings) - bricks OR lumber not both

    Lighthouse - glassware? the Great Lighthouse did not have glass and you need a lighthouse to build it. Maybe we need an early lighthouse?

    Marble quarry - stone tools or tools

    Rats I just lost the rest of my comments and I need to be elsewhere now. I'll post more later. Sorry I forgot to make the tools resource.
     
  7. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    The butchery comes so early that I don't think it should have a restriction its already linked to the Carcass resouce that can be obtained a number of ways (Herds, Hunting Camps, Farms, Traps, etc). Linking it to even the Barter Post let alone the Trading post is much too late.

    Brick for Earth Walls is stupid since the upgrade for them are normal walls that require bricks and bricks do not come until Masonry, which means you could not make an Earth Wall at all because it would already be obsolete by normal Walls.
     
  8. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    More on the buildings

    Modern Granary - why furniture? maybe I am confusing this with silos.

    Paper Maker - or cloth

    Paved Roads - timber, stone and asphelt have also been used to pave roads.

    Power Lines - I assumed these are the ones in cities and towns not the power grid ones transmission lines. So I would have thought aluminium was too late and copper wires would be needed. Note: where I grew up power poles were not wood but steel and concrete because of the termites.

    Printer's Workshop - lead or wood?

    Railroad Station - coal, oil or electricity to match the railway line requirements.

    Suburbs - wasn't it automobiles that made suburbs possible?

    Tire Factory - either a national wonder producing y tires or each tire factory requires x factories

    On to the wonders.
     
  9. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Yest another reason why I don't think we should go into detail on building materials unless its absolutely necessary such as Skyscrapers needing concrete and steel.
     
  10. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    And the different settler types do not have a difference then? Only the tech?
    It might also be weird that a just invented building is already so common that it is taken along with new settlers.
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I have been having one of those days where everything I do is not quite right. What I meant as not a boolean but another Tech. Not all buildings would have the tag.

    Eg Library Tech= Litrature, free to new city at tech= Education
     
  12. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

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    Really you only need any kind of mass public transportation to enable people to live in suburbs. Automobiles makes it easier, true enough, but doesn't have to be a requirement and in most cases outside of USA wasn't the reason suburbs developed.

    London in the early 19th Century is a prime example of this:
    The first railway to be built in London was a line from London Bridge to Greenwich, which opened in 1836. This was soon followed by the opening of great rail termini which linked London to every corner of Britain. These included Euston station (1837), Paddington station (1838), Fenchurch Street station (1841), Waterloo station (1848), King's Cross station (1850), and St Pancras station (1863).

    From Wikipedia:
    Cheers
     
  13. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Also they are just shorter names. Suburbs is short for "Industrial/Modern Era Low Density Medium Wealth" But that's way to long to write for the name of the building so I named it "Suburbs".
     
  14. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Isn't that the truth (jj=just joking):p:joke::lol:
     
  15. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    This whole conversation regarding XMLizing starting buildings for settler units is quite interesting, but it actually wasn't what I had in mind (though not far off the mark); what I was speaking of was the starting pops given by the settler units.

    Which ones in particular struck you? I'm personally proudest of the systemic changes in building requirements myself.

    That's a fair point. Forgive my ignorance, though, but how would you raise, say, a llama in a ditch or in a little earth mound without any doors to keep it in? Due to the OR slot being taken up by Stone Tools and Tools, the resources question here is all or nothing.

    Well, the Library's just the basic structure; a Brahmin Library, like a specific factory or shop, is what you do with that structure. A School of Scribes meanwhile, is a decidedly different educational building involving the recording of new information, not the accessing of already archived information.

    Butchery needs Slaughterhouse, which needs the Carcass or Pelts or Poultry resources, which are produced by the various herd buildings themselves, so it would be kinda roundabout, and not that realistic either.

    That's okay by me, but could you explain the reasons for your disagreement in more detail? I'm not clear on what the issue is with this building.

    I'm considering having the Christian Temple merely be sped up by Glassware and only having the Cathedral proper require it. I'm not sure why either would need pottery, though. I actually think the Dairy Barn should simply be sped up by Glassware and Pottery; the building materials themselves, like Iron, Lumber, Tin and Steel, can also be used for the buckets. Largely I was just going with the default settings on that one, and never really thought of pottery as an essential resource before then.

    There is already a Dog Breeder building; I took the Dog Kennels as a more advanced Bronze Age version thereof. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, as always.

    I used Bricks because Common Clay is a potential constituent material in Bricks. As Hydro noted, though, the Brick Mason comes at Masonry and it's successor already needs Bricks anyway, so it'd probably be a better move to have it need Common Clay AND (Stone Tools OR Tools).

    That one's now fixed, thanks. I assumed they were caught like crabs for some weird reason. Ah, the perils of using templates and making assumptions...

    You're definitely going to have to explain this one to me. Are bow strings made of hides, not rope?

    That's fixed now, though like Dairy Barn, I just took that from the default. I've also added the various mining buildings as OR requirements to compensate for the loss of the resource requirements proper.

    That should actually just be Lumber AND Tools, thanks. Which other bird buildings are you referring to?

    Good call; it should probably just be made a speedup resource instead. Gone it is.

    Heh, guess I must have assumed Marble was discovered by a late-Ancient or early Classical technology. Fixed it is.

    I use the term "Furniture" very broadly, and this case is no exception; you're right on the money. Reasoning being that I've heard of all kinds of wooden and metal silos, but never a brick one :p

    I've not heard of cloth being used as a writing material, or even such a thing being possible, but I'm all too happy to add it should that be so.

    I've not heard of wooden roads myself, but if that be so, how about having it require Tools AND (Bricks OR Lumber)? I could throw raw Stone in as well, but generally it's counted with Bricks as one of the possible materials you can use to make Bricks out of.

    Well, it can be interpreted as either going by the effects and description of the building, and the difference shouldn't matter for gameplay purposes. You raise a good point regarding the Aluminium; perhaps it and Lumber should be removed so we're left with Parts AND Tools AND (Concrete OR Lumber OR Nanotubes OR Steel)?

    I'm not seeing exactly what you're driving at here; if you mean to suggest that pencils should be an option in lieu of Dye, that runs into the X AND (X OR X) OR X problem. It becomes obsolete with Industrialism anyway, and the Book Factory would still use dyes in the raw production process. The Paper Factory would probably be a better candidate for such an alteration (this whole conversation reminds me a lot of the classic economics essay "I, Pencil").

    I can do the first two, but the last may require some sort of split or new coding/tags to accomplish.


    I don't understand the point you're making here; all you need under my plan to build a Tire Factory is the requisite resources and the Factory building in the city you're going to construct it in.
     
  16. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    From the wikipedia article on 'bow strings':

    Traditional materials include linen, hemp, other vegetable fibers, sinew, silk, and rawhide. Almost any fiber may be used in emergency

    Sinew was historically the first thing used I believe, and that implies butchery. Hence hides as a proxy.
     
  17. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

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    Fletcher's Hut: In all actuality it was sinews that was used to make bowstrings with in elder days, or twined animal guts. Rope making wasn't as far along as it is in these modern times after all.
    I see the reasoning behind needing Carcass, though maybe not Hides even if they can contain sinews too.

    Wooden paved roads, well, maybe not, but wooden sidewalks (pavement) was very common, though then it was mud roads in the streets too.

    Cheers
     
  18. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    A different suggestion for the starting of new cities:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11281763&postcount=34
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    @Praetyre I have added the Tool resource to the SVN. It is in your folder so you can play with it if you like.

    Animal farms - Fences

    dry stone walls fairly obvious

    a ditch works as well for an enclosure - not sure why and they have a name that escapes me at the moment. As far as I can tell they were most often used to keep the animals away from plants such as corps and gardens

    Mound of dirt likewise - see this allover the place in the bronze age sights in UK.

    Wiker work fences - can also be used as gates.

    To keep predators out just add thorny bushes.​

    Brahmin Libraries - where does the information come from that is stored there in the first place? hence scribes.

    Cave Painting - this one seems to be based on the Lacsaux paintings. Which while great are the only reminents of the art form left in Europe. The art form has the name "Cave Painting" but most are not in caves at all. They are on rock faces. This is so from Scandinavia to South Africa.

    Homing Pigion Coops, Dove Cots etc have been built just out of clay with a few sticks (not lumber) for perches.

    Paper maker - you can make paper from cloth (usually rags) but prayers are written on silk cloth to fly in the wind.

    Paved Roads - Scandinavians used paved roads made from tree trunks. Especially in their trade ports like Dublin and Jorvik (York).

    Printer's Workshop - the printing plates/blocks were made of wood (woodcuts) and lead (lead type used for books)

    Edit I would prefer national wonders for some of the late industrial resource making buildings because not every town produces tyres for example.
     
  20. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Chop Shop
    One thing I must disagree with is the Chop Shop requiring automobiles. The point of them is that you can get free "Parts" resource without needing the resources needed to make them. Since Automobiles need Parts, there would be no need to have a Chop Shop since you already have parts. In other words you sacrifice your safety for the ability to get parts.

    Fishing Traps
    As for the Fishing Traps and other traps, I can see like the generic Fishing Trap requiring Baskets but I don't know about the other more specific ones. For instance Lobster Traps are generally made of Wood, Fishing Nets would not be baskets at all but nets. I am thinking that perhaps the Fisherman's Hut should produce Nets and thus require rope. That would give it a unique use different from the Fishmonger.

    Railroad Station
    In the way I have it set up Railroads represent the Coal Powered type of railroad while, the Monorail station represents the new Electric style railroad (plus magnetic levitation). Thus I do not think the Railroad should require electricity.

    Bow Strings
    Since the Rope Maker can come from Leather or Cloth (hemp, wool, silk, etc) I think rope should be a requirement. Have say Wood and Rope and then the Bowmaker could work. Note that say an arrow maker could be wood, feathers and then choices for the arrowheads,. Bolts could be even different.

    @Praetyre

    I would also like to be the one to apply your ideas to the buildings. Not only will it give me a better peace of mind but it should allow me to know the stats of the buildings better. And will reduce conflict. So as I change them perhaps you could check them off your list as done so we can keep track of what needs to be done and what still needs to be addressed.
     

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