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A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Praetyre, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Hmm. Well I could always make a Saljuks culture and give it as the UU. However for the Greek Fire Ship did any other culture use them. or alternatively did any other culture use Cataphracts? I would not mind if it was just swapped to another culture.

    EDIT: Maybe move the Cataphracts Sassanid or Scythians cultures?
     
  2. Hanny

    Hanny Prince

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    Cataphracts( clibinari) were used by Parthia/Sassanids/Selucid Greeks, Chinese, Korea also.
    Greek Fire was closely guarded secret, so Byzantine and Islamic states who finaly obtained the formula for it had it first.
     
  3. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Good Idea. I like that, and I'll ask if there are any fire ship graphics already existing.
     
  4. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    There are and fire catapults. Just search the database, that is where I found them. Under Greek Fire iirc.
     
  5. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Yeah, but we need an animation that wil shoot the fire in conjucntion with ship animations, not Infantry or artillery animations that use that particle effect.
     
  6. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @ls612

    For now lets focus on the unfinished cultures we do have. It will be awhile until the Sassanid or Scythians get their own culture. I just recently posted 20 more and 20 still to do after that plus a growing list of more after that if we add that Sassanid and/or Scythians to the list.
     
  7. Azurian

    Azurian The Azurian

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    Wow :D:D:D:D:D there quite alot of interesting ideas and suggestions for buildings and wonders. I am going to spend sometime going over this.
     
  8. CIVPlayer8

    CIVPlayer8 Prince

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    I myself find a lot of good ideas in here. My favorite, however, is where you must build a musket maker to produce the musket resource, which is required by musket men. Or produce(or trade in) a modern armor resource to build modern armor.
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    @Praetyre how are you progressing with this? There are some really god things here and some that may be good but I wont know until I see them in action.
     
  10. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    Seeing as I'm getting back into the C2C swing of things, I'd like to note that I am ready and able to launch what I've come to dub "Project Hades", provided that I can receive signatory permission to do so from this mod's administrative staff and contributors, and am willing to hand over Hydro's buildings to his own control provided we can have some form of mutual dialogue on the matter of what to keep and what to change. I note that some of my ideas for units are already being adapted in LS612's thread using a new "Firearms" resource, and MrAzure would no doubt be interested in what potential ramifications my system has for the myriad of new content he's introducing for the postmodern eras.
     
  11. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Welcome back.:goodjob: Your ideas are always well thought out, but the implementation of the code is what slows things down unfortunately. As you said, I did just add the Firearms resource to a lot of units.

    With regards to the Buildings, you do know that you have commit access, right? You could use this thread like I use the Units thread to discuss and confirm changes with Hydro, then make those changes yourself, a setup that has worked well for me this past half year (yikes, I've been modding C2C for a half a year!:eek:). As you can tell, many things have happened since you were here, but your prereq ideas are still sitting on the back burner, so talk to Hydro about what to start implementing.
     
  12. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    I do, but I'd rather not go ahead changing the main SVN willy-nilly without a clear understanding of which of my changes are "a-go" and which may need further discussion. As Hydro himself noted, many of my changes will alter his buildings, his hand (no pun intended) in this mod's structures being so widespread we'd probably have to discuss it in smaller chunks, i.e. my idea of having Offices as requirements for corporate and departmental buildings, or tying small businesses to the Barter Post-Trade Post-Shopping District line.
     
  13. RidetheSpiral23

    RidetheSpiral23 C2C Map Team

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    Quick question. How difficult is it to change the weapon a unit model is displayed with?
     
  14. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Very. It requires knowledge of modeling and animation, of which Hydro only knows one (modeling).
     
  15. RidetheSpiral23

    RidetheSpiral23 C2C Map Team

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    Humm okay. I'm sure I'm probably wrong but are there animations defined already for the basic types of weapons (sword, spears etc...)? Couldn't you just replace the animation with a default one for the appropriate weapon type?
     
  16. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    From what Hydro has told me it isn't easy. You should ask him though, as if he can that would be great.
     
  17. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Praetyre

    I don't mind you posting suggestions but do a little at a time. Your huge list that was posted awhile back was a bit overwhelming. I have tried to add some changes from them, but they are more likely to get in if they are presented in little "bites" rather than trying to consume and digest it all at once.

    Likewise I do want to be the one that adds the changes to my own buildings. I am much more likely to chnage something if you can convince me why. In which I will either explain why not, agree or possibly come to a compromise or new idea. Such as in the case of the Firearms which was an idea we both had in mind but then combined our ideas into a new idea.

    I only know how to changed models with a result of it not being animated anymore. If I knew how to chnage the weapon on the unit there would be a bunch of units I would change and make. Such as Herero Rebel holding a gun instead of a blade.
     
  18. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    There is a folder set up for you to do your stuff in. I was hoping that you would be able to do it in a modular fashion so as to not upset Hydro's stuff but could then be merged back in to the various parts. I know you want to do some stuff with the religion buildings.

    One thing I want to do is to move all the population requirements on buildings out into a mod so that we can use an alternative based on organisation which relates better to the real world. As I have said elsewhere I live in a country where the population is much lower than in other countries but we are rich and get much of the infrastructure theaters and so on in much smaller cities. We even have population zero towns which have the buildings but no population per se.
     
  19. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    Very well, then, how about we go through each section publically and alphabetically, like so;
    Buildings
    A
    Accelerator: Requires Computers AND Concrete AND Steel

    The Computers resource here represents the advanced technological infrastructure and specialized scientific equipment necessary for the creation and operation of a particle accelerator; by it's very nature, quantum physics requires extremely precise instruments of measure and safety controls for proper and ethical operation. The concrete is for the building as a whole, which will inevitable tend towards an extremely sturdy and utilitarian mode as opposed to the more stylized glass-steel offices more conventional laboratories may be housed in. The steel here is both to reinforce the structure and for the supercollider itself; few other manmade materials can withstand the intense atomic forces utilized in the operation of the accelerator, though I can see a case for making this requirement an OR and having Titanium and Nanotubes as alternatives.

    Acupuncturist's Shop: Requires Bone OR Copper OR Steel OR Titanium, Trading Post

    These are all of the conceivable materials currently represented in our resource system that could be crafted into therapeutic needles. The Trading Post requirement is a long running one which is a simplification of building requirements along "Infrastructure Building" lines; namely, Trading Posts represent pre-industrial shopping districts and the actual buildings in which specific businesses will set up shop, which really isn't that far off from how said shops have and continue to operate anyway.

    Adventure Tours Franchise: Requires Offices

    I interpret this building to be a local corporate branch of the multinational Adventure Tours company, and hence it would require office facilities to house it's staff and equipment. Offices, in this context, fulfill a similar role to that of the Barter Post-Trading Post-Shopping District line.

    Aerospace Complex: Computers AND Concrete AND Furniture AND Glassware AND Nanotubes AND Steel

    You obviously need computers to run a futuristic military airbase, the concrete is for the numerous foundations, runways and defensive fortifications around the facility, the furniture lets the desk crews (particularily air traffic controllers) operate in comfort whle the glassware not only provides aesthetic windows, but necessary lighting for both aircraft and base personnel. Nanotubes are a preexiting requirement presumably referring to the advanced foundations and electrical filaments used in the construction and operation of the facility, and the steel is for reinforcement in those areas where nanotubes would be overkill. A seemingly complex building that in reality should be easily accessible to most well planned modern day cities; nanotubes, like before, stand out as a more complex requirement.

    Agora: Requires Marble OR Stone

    All you really need for this is an open square (or circle, triangle, other open surface); whether you think it's fancy enough to merit marble is up to player discretion. It's long obsolete by the time alternate construction materials for such squares come along, so they are off the table.

    AI Surveillance: Requires Computer Network AND Intelligence Agency OR Police Station

    Here, the Computer Network is the electronic infrastructure necessary to have a British-level CCTV system or other such Self Aware Colony-esque Orwellian wackyness. The latter two are the principal clients and users of such technologies, though if we ever get privatized RoboCop-style corporate police, they'd be likely candidates for such services too.

    Airport: Requires Concrete AND Aircraft OR Modern Aircraft

    All you really need for an airport, at it's most basic, is a tarmac, a runway and some planes. QED.

    Alpaca Farm: Requires Lumber

    You need some way of fencing in the animals, though I've heard of a possible Neolithic "pit" method of farming that might eliminate this from the list altogether. I'm also open to revising this to allow stones and other materials for fencing; lumber is chosen chiefly because it allows movable gates. Hmm, this is starting to remind me a lot of Dwarf Fortress...

    Aluminum Co. Research and Development: Requires Offices

    See Adventure Tours Franchise. I can see a case for making scientific buildings in general, like laboratories, have offices as an OR requirement with universities, for reasons elaborated upon in my comments on Accelerator.

    Andean Monastery: Requires Bricks AND Furniture

    Like airports, all you need is the building and some beds, and I'm having a hard time picturing anyone building Andean structures out of flimsy wood rather than plentiful stone. To some extent, I'm also going off building graphics for this.

    Andean Temple: Requires Bricks

    You don't even need Furniture for this one; you can do a Hindu style open prayer on the cold hard floor. I'm willing to discuss alternate materials, but for now, it's Bricks and Bricks only for these buildings. Adds more character to the religions to have different requirements if you ask me, and encourages people to pick religions in biomes historically adapted to those religions, much like cultures (of course, we do have a bit of a chicken and egg situation here... hmm...).

    Android Factory: Requires Factory

    See my comments on Offices and the Post/Shopping District line requirements.

    Animal Hide Tents: Requires Hides AND Wood

    The Wood, in case you are wondering, is to prop up the hides; it's placed as Wood rather than Lumber because you will almost invariably get Skinning before Carpentry.

    Animal Snare Traps: Requires Rope

    Gotta catch em somehow, though I'm, as always, open to alternate material suggestions for the OR field.

    Anti-Matter Battery: Requires Rifles

    I have Rifles as a seperate resource as per my plans to deal with weaponry; I fold the complex requirements into one single resource changing to account for era, so that you only need the weapons themselves for the units but the weapons factories still require (in the case of Rifles) Ammunition AND Parts AND Chemicals OR Lumber. I'm open to changing this to Firearms, but in the process you'd be shifting these requirements over to the Anti-Matter Battery itself rather than compressing it in one building.

    Anti-Missile Battery: Requires Rifles

    Ditto.

    Apartments: Requires Furniture AND Glassware AND Bricks OR Concrete

    No self respecting middle class member of a Modern Age society would dream of living in a house without glass windows, and I've yet to see a wooden apartment either.

    Apothecary Shop: Requires Trading Post

    See my comments on the Post-Shopping District line in my comments on the Acupuncturist's Shop.

    Aquarium: Requires Glassware

    I think this one is self explanatory. Come to think of it, though, could transparent carbon nanotubes be used to replace Glassware eventually? I have a hard time believing space shuttle windows are made of superheated sand.

    Aqueduct: Requires Bricks OR Concrete OR Marble OR Stone

    I have Concrete as a seperate resource from Cement which will in many cases replace it outright, so this one gets a tweak.

    Archery Range: Requires Military Training NOT Feudalism, Archery Equipment, Barracks NOT Fletcher's Hut

    Archery as a professional military discipline dates back to at least the Bronze Age, hence the tech change. The other changes are part of my military revision plan, where housing, training and basing for professional military units is represented by the Barracks line with other training facilities being ancillary additions to train more specialized units, having the remaining irregular and guerilla units easier and quicker to raise but less powerful to their lack of specialized military training.

    It also reflects actual military dynamics quite well; a US Marine from Juneau who trains on Parris Island and gains the corresponding terrain promotions associated with such training is going to be different from a National Guardsman who trains locally. The Equipment requirement is a circumvention akin to the one I use for weaponry, and with the layer of buildings added in, Archers are actually pretty simple to build once you get the basics up and running. Lastly, the Fletcher's Hut is gone because the equipment requirement makes it redundant.

    Arcology: Requires Computers AND Semiconductors AND Nanotubes

    You need advanced machinery to operate living spaces (not to mention the sheer physics of it all) on an arcological scale; even the Zionists from the Matrix had their own machines to keep their labyrinthine domestic utilities running. The rest is just to keep the whole structure up, running, supported and digitally connected; even self sufficient arcologies will need semiconductors for the vast internal systems they'd contain.

    Arena: Requires Bricks

    Self explanatory. I'm open to lumber and simple dugouts as suggestions too.

    Art Gallery: Requires Bricks

    Ditto. I'm open to having this one as an Offices/Post-District line one too.

    Artillery Battery: Requires Rifles

    See Anti-Matter Battery

    Artist Guild: Requires Bricks

    See Art Gallery.

    Asatru Monastery: Requires Furniture AND Bricks OR Lumber

    The Norse are a lot more woody with their construction techniques than the Inca.

    Asatru Temple: Requires Bricks OR Lumber

    Ditto. I can see a case for making those requirement free on the basis they are nature shrines rather than actual buildings per se.

    Assassin's Den: Requires Trading Post

    Like the Mob Storefront, they need a legitimate front to have their offices in and operate from in secrecy.

    Astrology School: Requires Bricks AND Paper OR Tablets

    Only two pre-Industrial recording materials, not much else to say about it.

    Auto-Cannon Battery: Requires Rifles

    See Anti-Matter Battery.

    Automated Defenses: Requires Rifles

    Ditto.

    Automobile Factory: Requires Parts AND Tires, Factory

    I've noticed a lot of the other Factory buildings have since adopted the prime building as an infrastructural requirement; big thanks and kudos to whoever decided to implement that one. Otherwise, parts represent the mechanical workings and, well, parts of the car itself, and tires the... well, this is also pretty self explanatory. In general, "parts" are the internal machinery of vehicles, and will be used in this context when referred to in future requirements.
     
  20. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Praetyre

    First I wanted to say that since the last time you posted we can do a lot more in the way of code. However it would be good if we did not go overboard either.

    Accelerator
    I think the requirements are fine however there is not Computers resource yet or a factory to make computers yet. Perhaps Semiconductors can be a stand in until we have a computer resource.

    Acupuncturist's Shop
    We can do that now. So approved.

    Adventure Tours Franchise
    I don't deal with corporation buildings so if you want to chnage it then go into the SVN and change the core building. Seems fine. Note I still need to add Offices.

    Aerospace Complex
    Same problem with the computers not being a resource yet. And are nanotubes common yet when the aerospace complex is enabled?

    Agora
    Sounds good.

    AI Surveillance
    Sounds reasonable.

    Airport
    We don't hve either of those resouces yet except for concrete. I am not sure about this.

    Alpaca Farm
    I disagree with this one. I do not think it needs lumber at all.

    Aluminum Co. Research and Development
    (See Adventure Tours Franchise)

    Andean Monastery
    Any religious buildings are under DH's control. You will have to ask him.

    Andean Temple
    (See DH)

    Android Factory
    I disagree about the Shopping District. Its not an android store, its a factory. We could make an android store though.

    Animal Hide Tents
    Wood resources comes too late. Maybe a Stick Gatherer building instead.

    Animal Snare Traps
    Rope comes too late. By the time you can get rope it will be nearly obsolete.

    Anti-Matter Battery
    Rifels have been simplified into just Firearms. I do not think an anti-matter batter would even use firearms anymore and would have their own built in turrets.

    Anti-Missile Battery
    Likewise these would be built into the structure you are building.

    Apartments
    I am not sure if we need to go so detailed with the materals of a building in this case.

    Apothecary Shop
    I agree however its under DH's control.

    Aquarium
    I suppose that makes sense.

    Aqueduct
    Already this way.

    Archery Range
    Not sure about the tech chnage. Or the building requirement. Fletcher's Hut basically represents the archery equipment. If it made a resource then maybe the resource rather than the building.

    Arcology
    Wait computers AND semiconductors? This seems redundant.

    Arena
    I guess.

    Art Gallery
    I am not sure if we need building materials here.

    Artillery Battery
    (See Anti-Matter Battery)

    Artist Guild
    I am changing to "Artist Colony" when I add the new Guilds system (so not to have 2 Artist Guilds). Not sure about the bricks part.

    Asatru Monastery
    Under DH's control.

    Asatru Temple
    Under DH's control.

    Assassin's Den
    Ok this make sense. I like the logic.

    Astrology School
    What about scrolls? As for the bricks I don't know.

    Auto-Cannon Battery
    (See Anti-Matter Battery)

    Automated Defenses
    (See Anti-Matter Battery)

    Automobile Factory
    I am not 100% sure if the Parts are available before or after Motorized Transportation. This could lead to a problem of parts not invented yet.

    ---------------

    *Phew*

    Ok before we move on to B even that was a bit much to swallow in one sitting. So I suggest you do a few things first ....

    1. Make a list of all the new resources you propose. We can go over them and decided which go in and which don't. This should solve a lot of problems if the resources are already in.

    2. Make a separate list of religious buildings for DH to review. Its his baby and he can do what he wants for religious buildings.

    3. Any corporation buildings you can do without me. I do not touch them. Just try to keep them consistent with the other buildings. In short those will be ones you edit.

    Once all those are worked out we can continue on.
     

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