A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Your suggestion of a line for "shop" like buildings sounds good but only if the Trading Post has a requirement of Village Hall or better in the admin line and Village Hall has no population requirement. All those you have suggested for "my" area seem OK. Just do the mod in your folder.

Don't forget that not everyone has all the religions on so you ill need to do something like:-

		<BuildingInfo>
			<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_ANDEAN_MONASTERY</BuildingClass>
			<Type>BUILDING_ANDEAN_MONASTERY</Type>
			<AndDependencyTypes>
             	<DependencyType>RELIGION_ANDEAN</DependencyType>
 			</AndDependencyTypes>
			<PrereqBonuses>
				<Bonus>BONUS_BRICK</Bonus>
			</PrereqBonuses>
		</BuildingInfo>

 

[Praetyre]

@DH:

Why do you wish to tie the Trading Post to Village Hall?

@Praetyre

First I wanted to say that since the last time you posted we can do a lot more in the way of code. However it would be good if we did not go overboard either.

I generally try and streamline as much as I can through combinatory resources (the aircraf units are probably the biggest example of this, but you can also find it throughout the Shop and Factory tied buildings. I've no plans to have multiple OR chains either, so rest assured that I won't be fiddling with the more experimental code, at least not yet.

Accelerator
I think the requirements are fine however there is not Computers resource yet or a factory to make computers yet. Perhaps Semiconductors can be a stand in until we have a computer resource.

That's fair enough.

Acupuncturist's Shop
We can do that now. So approved.

Great, I'll get right on it.

Adventure Tours Franchise
I don't deal with corporation buildings so if you want to chnage it then go into the SVN and change the core building. Seems fine. Note I still need to add Offices.

We have Modern Offices already; shouldn't take me too long to fill em in.

Aerospace Complex
Same problem with the computers not being a resource yet. And are nanotubes common yet when the aerospace complex is enabled?

Well, I left it in as a resource because it was in the original requirements; I'm open to removing it if desired.

Agora
Sounds good.

AI Surveillance
Sounds reasonable.

Will do.

Airport
We don't hve either of those resouces yet except for concrete. I am not sure about this.

Perhaps we should cross this bridge when we come to the units discussion and leave military buildings alone for now.

Alpaca Farm
I disagree with this one. I do not think it needs lumber at all.

Could you elaborate a bit on this one? I'm quite interested in the whole "pit farming" idea somebody (I think it was DH) mentioned that might streamline out resource requirements for this.

Aluminum Co. Research and Development
(See Adventure Tours Franchise)

Gotcha.

Andean Monastery
Any religious buildings are under DH's control. You will have to ask him.

Andean Temple
(See DH)

Will do.

Android Factory
I disagree about the Shopping District. Its not an android store, its a factory. We could make an android store though.

I wasn't suggesting that it require Shopping District, just Factory. I was using Shopping District as an analogy to buildings that require preexisting infrastructure to streamline resource requirements and promote the commonality of structures that should realistically be commonplace.

Animal Hide Tents
Wood resources comes too late. Maybe a Stick Gatherer building instead.

I did consider this one. Sounds like a fair compromise to me.

Animal Snare Traps
Rope comes too late. By the time you can get rope it will be nearly obsolete.

Alright then, we'll leave this one alone, though I wouldn't mind seeing some role for plant fibres in my plan and C2C in general.

Anti-Matter Battery
Rifels have been simplified into just Firearms. I do not think an anti-matter batter would even use firearms anymore and would have their own built in turrets.

My weapons resources cover only the broad type of weaponry, not the calibre, so the guns require themselves, so to speak. I like most of the firearms revision I'm seeing so far; my only issue is that I believe Modern+ firearms, like modern aircraft, are radically different from their predecessors in their mechanical complexity, and so should require Parts while accounting for alternate construction materials (plastic or wood) in the form of Chemicals OR Lumber.

Anti-Missile Battery
Likewise these would be built into the structure you are building.

Alright.

Apartments
I am not sure if we need to go so detailed with the materals of a building in this case.

It's consistent, in my view, with the degree of detail given to prior structures; I'm willing to negotiate on the furniture side of things, though, as that whole resource is an assumption based off the furniture factory and other such buildings.

Apothecary Shop
I agree however its under DH's control.

Alright, I await his input.

Aquarium
I suppose that makes sense.

Cool.

Aqueduct
Already this way.

Currently it requires Cement, not Concrete. See the New Buildings section of my plan for details on expanding that process a little, such as allowing for Chemicals OR Sand OR Stone as reactive agents and requiring fresh water.

Archery Range
Not sure about the tech chnage. Or the building requirement. Fletcher's Hut basically represents the archery equipment. If it made a resource then maybe the resource rather than the building.

I prefer resources to buildings as they tend to make things more dynamic; you can have one big production city pumping out arrows and another city training them up. No need to have all the weapons factories next to the barracks, after all.

Arcology
Wait computers AND semiconductors? This seems redundant.

Semiconductors are an advanced form of computer component, not a system unto themselves. Computers have uses independent of the Transhuman era where semiconductors exist, and so are a seperate resource under my plan.

Arena
I guess.

You know, I just love it when you reference CivCity and old Maxis games. It makes me feel alive again... err, anyway, I'm reminded of the wooden amphitheatres from CivCity Rome, and wonder if they and many fictional "pit fights" might put this in the no requirement or Bricks OR Lumber category.

Art Gallery
I am not sure if we need building materials here.

Probably should have it under Modern Offices OR Shopping District; the galleries that are buildings in their own right tend to be wonder-level.

Artist Guild
I am changing to "Artist Colony" when I add the new Guilds system (so not to have 2 Artist Guilds). Not sure about the bricks part.

See Art Gallery. Even hipsters congregate in buildings us plebs use.

Astrology School
What about scrolls? As for the bricks I don't know.

Good point, I'll add them in the final version as a third OR. I'm willing to put this under Trading Post too; now I'm reminded of an essay on a fantastic city building project site whose name now escapes me talking about the repurposing of civic buildings.

Automobile Factory
I am not 100% sure if the Parts are available before or after Motorized Transportation. This could lead to a problem of parts not invented yet.

Parts come with Advanced Metallurgy, which is concurrent with Motorized Transportation in the tree.

---------------

*Phew*

Ok before we move on to B even that was a bit much to swallow in one sitting. So I suggest you do a few things first ....

1. Make a list of all the new resources you propose. We can go over them and decided which go in and which don't. This should solve a lot of problems if the resources are already in.

Aircraft
Computers
Concrete
Furniture
Hi-Tech Armo(u)r
Lumber
Military Aircraft
Modern Aircraft
Modern Armo(u)r
Modern Military Aircraft
Rifles

2. Make a separate list of religious buildings for DH to review. Its his baby and he can do what he wants for religious buildings.

I'll get on it immediately.

3. Any corporation buildings you can do without me. I do not touch them. Just try to keep them consistent with the other buildings. In short those will be ones you edit.

I'll have em Officed out in no time.

Once all those are worked out we can continue on.

Sounds good to me. Hopefully we'll start getting quicker with implementation and review once we get the basics down through trial and error with the earlier buildings.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

Great, I'll get right on it.

Unless its a religious or corporation building I will be doing them. Ok? Just wanted to make that clear.

We have Modern Offices already; shouldn't take me too long to fill em in.

Oops! I guess we do!

Could you elaborate a bit on this one? I'm quite interested in the whole "pit farming" idea somebody (I think it was DH) mentioned that might streamline out resource requirements for this.

I just don't think such a low ranking buildings needs any more requirements than it already has. Especially with alpacas where historically they did not keep them in pens but let them graze in open land like sheep.

I wasn't suggesting that it require Shopping District, just Factory. I was using Shopping District as an analogy to buildings that require preexisting infrastructure to streamline resource requirements and promote the commonality of structures that should realistically be commonplace.

Oh ok.

It's consistent, in my view, with the degree of detail given to prior structures; I'm willing to negotiate on the furniture side of things, though, as that whole resource is an assumption based off the furniture factory and other such buildings.

I need to think over how I want to treat buildings.

Alright then, we'll leave this one alone, though I wouldn't mind seeing some role for plant fibres in my plan and C2C in general.

Maybe a "plant fiber gatherer" or something like the stick or rock gatherer.

Currently it requires Cement, not Concrete. See the New Buildings section of my plan for details on expanding that process a little, such as allowing for Chemicals OR Sand OR Stone as reactive agents and requiring fresh water.

Concrete tech unlocks a Concrete Mason which gives a Cement resource. Later you can get the Cement Mill which provides the same resource. Cement and Concrete are considered the same thing. Just as all types of gems become Gems.

You know, I just love it when you reference CivCity and old Maxis games. It makes me feel alive again... err, anyway, I'm reminded of the wooden amphitheatres from CivCity Rome, and wonder if they and many fictional "pit fights" might put this in the no requirement or Bricks OR Lumber category.

I am thinking that the Fighting Pit would be a pit or wooden while the arena could be more. Though since it upgrades to a coliseum it would be interesting to have the arena as possibly wood. While the coliseum has to be stone or marble.

Probably should have it under Modern Offices OR Shopping District; the galleries that are buildings in their own right tend to be wonder-level.

Maybe even a museum. Not sure if that's too early for a museum req.

Aircraft
Computers
Concrete
Furniture
Hi-Tech Armo(u)r
Lumber
Military Aircraft
Modern Aircraft
Modern Armo(u)r
Modern Military Aircraft
Rifles

1. That's fine however I will need to make an aircraft factory first.

2. That's fine however I will need to make an computer factory first.

3. Cement covers this so no need to have both.

4. We already have furniture as a resource.

5. I am not sure what this should be called but something would be good. Also kevlar might be nice to have for modern units.

6. We have Wood and Prime Timber no need to make Lumber too.

7. Military Aircraft, Modern Aircraft and Modern Military Aircraft can all be combined into one resource just like we did for Firearms.

8. Rifles are already combined into Firearms.

9. Modern Armo(u)r wich is like the vehicle or an armor you wear?

----

So the bottom line is I need to finish the Guilds first before working on this. Then the new resources need to be made and then the buildings that make those resources (Computers and Aircraft at least). Next I can add the ones from the A's which I approved. Anything left either gets thrown out or put in the consider later pile (such as houses).

Sound good?

In the meantime you can focus on the religious (with DH) and corporation buildings if you want.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@DH:

Why do you wish to tie the Trading Post to Village Hall?

I wish to get rid of the very artificial population requirements on buildings and replace them with something more realistic based on organisational ability of the city and it's wealth. As far as I can see the organisation buildings are fire pit, Chief's hut then the administrative line starting with Village Hall. Tieing it to "Chief's Hut" or better works also, I can't remember the order that VH and TP come in. Since I a still having driver problems with my upgraded rig I can't play Civ, BtS or C2C to find out; and it is still taking 2-3 seconds to do a page up or down on most web sites and documents. Hit page down to submit this --- and noting happens

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

Could you please remove your "Project Hades" stuff? I said I would change them myself.

EDIT: I removed the files since they will be redundant when I change the same building in my files.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

To review ...

- Accelerator - Need Computer Resource before it can be changed.
- Acupuncturist's Shop - I will change. [DONE]
- Adventure Tours Franchise - You Changed
- Aerospace Complex - Need Computer Resource before it can be changed.
- Agora - Look like you already changed it in the core.
- AI Surveillance - I will change. [DONE]
- Airport - Needs Aircraft resource before it can be changed.
- Alpaca Farm - Leaving it as it is.
- Aluminum Co. Research and Development - Looks like you already changed it in the core.
- Andean Monastery - Up to DH.
- Andean Temple - Up to DH.
- Android Factory - I will change.
- Animal Hide Tents - I will change. [DONE]
- Animal Snare Traps - Will be reviewed again later.
- Anti-Matter Battery - Leaving it as it is.
- Anti-Missile Battery - Leaving it as it is.
- Apartments - Will be reviewed again later.
- Apothecary Shop - Up to DH.
- Aquarium - I will change. [DONE]
- Aqueduct -Already changed.
- Archery Range - I will chnage the tech req the rest will have to be reviewed later.
- Arcology - Need Computer Resource before it can be changed.
- Arena - I will change. [DONE]
- Art Gallery - Will be reviewed again later.
- Artillery Battery - Leaving it as it is.
- Artist Guild Artist Colony - Will be reviewed again later.
- Asatru Monastery - Up to DH.
- Asatru Temple - Up to DH.
- Assassin's Den - I will change. [DONE]
- Astrology School - I will change. [DONE]
- Auto-Cannon Battery - Leaving it as it is.
- Automated Defenses - Leaving it as it is.
- Automobile Factory - I will change. [DONE]

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

So I ...

- Tweaked Acupuncturist Shop.
- Tweaked Astrology School.
- Tweaked AI Surveillance.
- Tweaked Animal Hide Tents.
- Tweaked Aquarium.
- Tweaked Arena.
- Tweaked Assassins Den.
- Tweaked Automobile Factory.
- Tweaked Android Factory.

I could not do the Archery Range yet since I am waiting on SO to edit the core building file. Which leaves either buildings that need resources or buildings we can review at a later date.

 

[BlueGenie]

*cough* Sorry for wanting to make in input here but at least the Animal Hide Tents strikes me as weird for needing Wood resource. Give me a few branches and some hide and I can make a tent. I don't need Wood for that. Sticks work where Wood won't, and I can make a tent with just hides, trees, and rope too. Though Rope does come rather late in the game though so I'll make do with a few strands of fibre knotted or woven together.
Also you are pushing the possibility of building the Animal Hide tents from Skinning Technology to Woodworking Technology, quite a ways further along.

I think considering where on the tree things become able to build should be considered as well, along with what can work, not only what the obvious choice is. Many things can be done in many ways.
For instance Assassins can use basically anything as a "front", not just a Trading Post. They can even hide out in forests, or be organized by the leaders of a city.
Sometimes because something makes sense doesn't mean it has to be done that way.
Just saying.

Cheers

 

[Praetyre]

My apologies for overstepping my boundaries; I figured that having edited files in my own module would enable us to go back on these changes as quickly as possible if they didn't work out. Part of the reason I have Assassin's Guild as using Barter/Trading Post as a front is that it comes with Barter; a serious, organized guild of assassins, as distinct from the Bandits Hideout you seem to be describing with the forest or leader-organized early spy units or secret police, is at the bare minimum a private or quasiprivate underground institution with the ability to operate in society with some degree of secrecy. That, at least, is the way I interpret it. I also try and account for tech tree movements by having Wood instead of Lumber for Prehistoric buildings, though in some cases you are correct that going with Sticks would probably be best (the Stick Gatherer wasn't around IIRC when I wrote this list).

Would it be best to wait until the new resources come in and the Art Gallery is reviewed before we move on to B, or should these things be put on the back burner along with the units/firearms related buildings?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@BlueGenie

I set the Animal Hide Tent to have the stick gatherer since it comes at Gathering tech and Wood comes at Wood Working tech. Thus a few sticks are all that's needed to keep up the tent. As opposed to wood (log and such) to make a more complex building.

@Praetyre

Yeah please hold up. First I need SO to finish removing the old guild stuff before I can add my new guilds stuff. Then I need o edit the core building file. And then I can start adding the new resources and the buildings that produce those resources.

If you want you could always post some stats you think the Computer Factory and Aircraft factory should have. That would help me once I have to code for them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

My apologies for overstepping my boundaries; I figured that having edited files in my own module would enable us to go back on these changes as quickly as possible if they didn't work out.

Indeed this is the essence of modular work. It allows quickness and flexablity. That is one reason why I am happy with Praetyre making changes to any building here and then moving them into their proper places after some testing has been done.

 

[Praetyre]

Aircraft Factory
Tech Required: Aviation
Cost: 300
Resources Required: Parts AND Tires
Resources Produced: Aircraft
Building Required: Factory

Computer Factory
Tech Required: Computers
Cost: 500
Resources Required: Fiberglass AND Parts AND Copper Wires OR Gold OR Nanotubes OR Semiconductors
Resources Produced: Computers
Building Required: Factory

Modern Aircraft Factory
Tech Required: Jet Propulsion
Cost: 750
Resources Required: Computers AND Parts AND Tires
Resources Produced: Modern Aircraft
Building Required: Factory

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I thought we were trying to get away from things like "Modern Aircraft" or the modern part of the name. Why not "Jet Aircraft" even though many modern aircraft have propellers they still use some jet technology.

 

[Praetyre]

Sure thing; at the time I think the idea of getting away from modern was in it's infancy, but I'm happy either way, tis just cosmetic after all.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Indeed this is the essence of modular work. It allows quickness and flexablity. That is one reason why I am happy with Praetyre making changes to any building here and then moving them into their proper places after some testing has been done.

Normally I would agree however there is so much he wants changed that I would rather go through each and then add them to my mods folder directly. Its easy to loose track of what he changed, so if I chnage them I can better have a sense of what was added.

Computer Factory
Tech Required: Computers
Cost: 500
Resources Required: Fiberglass AND Parts AND Copper Wires OR Gold OR Nanotubes OR Semiconductors
Resources Produced: Computers
Building Required: Factory

Why fiberglass?

Also I am not sure if we need two aircraft factories.

 

[Praetyre]

Why fiberglass?

I took it instead of chemicals and sand for the production of the chips and to a much lesser extent the monitor and chassis itself.

Also I am not sure if we need two aircraft factories.

Computer instruments are a radical and fundamental component of modern avionics in contrast to pre-jet avionics; the only other way to represent this is by having the modern aircraft units themselves require computers, and it just doesn't seem right to me that they'd be shipped to their users without that equipment built in on-site.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Praetyre

Also what about Helicopters, Balloons and other flying machines?

 

[Praetyre]

Helicopters are handled the same way as other modern era military aircraft, while balloons, while Airships require Ammunition AND Cloth AND Hydrogen AND Steel, and the Factory and Garrison buildings, Barrage Balloons simply need Cloth AND Hydrogen AND Rope AND Lumber with the same building requirements as Airships, and Blimps require Cloth AND Hydrogen AND Iron with the same building requirements again. Hot Air Balloons have no building requirements and need Cloth AND Rope AND Lumber.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Lumber for Hot Air Balloons?

 

[Praetyre]

To build the baskets, though if there's other materials that would do the job I could add those as ORs.