Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I think I will let Praetyre answer that since its his idea.
A Not So Modest Proposal Regarding Buildings, Resources and Units
- Thread starter Praetyre
- Start date
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I believe the logic is that you need the idea of commerce as represented by the barter and trading posts before you should be able to build commercial buildings.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Then let it stick to commercial type buildings but not every bldg.
JosEPh
JosEPh
Why does the Kremlin now require Palace? BAD, BAD idea. I would very strongly recommend against any tying World Wonders to any other wonder, National or World. Valley of the Kings can do this as a unique example, but please don't do this to other wonders (Holy See Library, Sistine Chapel, Piazza San Marco). I don't care if they were built together in history, we shouldn't be forcing this on the game.
For that matter, I don't think you should be requiring specific religion buildings for Wonders UNLESS the religion is also a requirement. Notre Dame should NOT require a Christian Cathedral. It's completely religion-neutral right now. Let's keep it that way.
For that matter, I don't think you should be requiring specific religion buildings for Wonders UNLESS the religion is also a requirement. Notre Dame should NOT require a Christian Cathedral. It's completely religion-neutral right now. Let's keep it that way.
Two more things:
Having a Wonder with Palace in its name should not force the building to require Housing (Palaces). Please realize that Housing (Palaces) is not available until City Planning (mid-Classical Era). This especially hurts Nimrud Palace, because it is supposed to be an Ancient Era Wonder. It only requires Dualism and Mesopotamism, which are both Ancient Era techs. I don't think it fits Apadana Palace or Palace of Potala either.
Requiring Art Gallery for Hermitage and Louvre is not going to work as long as Art Gallery is tied to the Pacifism civic. I would prefer if Art Gallery was not a civic-related building and we had a different Pacifism building instead.
Having a Wonder with Palace in its name should not force the building to require Housing (Palaces). Please realize that Housing (Palaces) is not available until City Planning (mid-Classical Era). This especially hurts Nimrud Palace, because it is supposed to be an Ancient Era Wonder. It only requires Dualism and Mesopotamism, which are both Ancient Era techs. I don't think it fits Apadana Palace or Palace of Potala either.
Requiring Art Gallery for Hermitage and Louvre is not going to work as long as Art Gallery is tied to the Pacifism civic. I would prefer if Art Gallery was not a civic-related building and we had a different Pacifism building instead.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I have to agree about the Palace comment.
I also did not do the wonders part so that's Praetyre area.
I also did not do the wonders part so that's Praetyre area.
Then I'll wait for him to respond, but I think forcing Wonders to be built together is bad gameplay.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Ok. I am open to tweaking his plans. Which buildings should not have barter/trading post requirements. Its hard to identify which ones since for instance a Fetcher makes bows and arrows. And that's technically a type of shop.
I would be happy to review a list of buildings you or others think should not require the barter/trading post stuff.
Nimek
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2010
- Messages
- 1,208
C2C is based on realism.
In real human history people first produce some things. Then they have idea that they can exchange/trade produced things among each other and then they figured out that it will be good build special places where everybody will exchange/trade things (barter/trading post)
Remove that dependency please. I will post my idea about commerce building dependency during today. Hydroready know a part of it.
In real human history people first produce some things. Then they have idea that they can exchange/trade produced things among each other and then they figured out that it will be good build special places where everybody will exchange/trade things (barter/trading post)
Remove that dependency please. I will post my idea about commerce building dependency during today. Hydroready know a part of it.
Praetyre
King
Actually, the idea is quite a bit more simple; it's that the Barter/Trading Post/Shopping District line of buildings is the physical infrastructure necessary to house these various enterprises; these buildings are not mere processes, but frequently require extensive building space; the trade going on is not merely between cities, but within them as well. Think of it like a shopping mall; a mall is ultimately a series of decorations, escalators, elevators and empty rooms. It's the specific shops that rent space in these rooms that give a mall it's content and character. Or if you prefer to go with a more video gamey analogy, look at commercial zoning in SimCity, where you as mayor designate where private enterprise can set itself up but don't directly dictate what kind of enterprise pops up.
I'm open to making it a Versailles type secondary palace, if balance is the issue.
Why is it acceptable to have the Valley of the Kings require the Sphinx and the Pyramids and not have these other wonders tied together, when the Valley of the Kings was built in a completely seperate location thousands of years after the Pyramids and Sphinx while the Holy See Library and Sistine Chapel are actual rooms of the Apostolic Palace and the Piazza San Marco was set up in Saint Mark's Basilica's courtyard?
That is an entirely circular argument, since by definition if a wonder requires a religious building it needs the religion too. Anyway, I don't see why having Notre Dame be Christian is any worse than having the Pyramid of the Magician be Naghualist, but I would like to have a Requires State Religion Cathedral tag anyway for the Apostolic Palace.
Nimrud Palace was a mistake on my part; I assumed the building was early Classical as it was historically. The others work on the same principle as the barter post; one is the actual physical building (and I think it's better to base palaces off housing than the national wonder), the other is the purpose you turn it to. It cuts down on building requirement redundancies a lot.
This is a can of worms I'd rather leave unopened until someone has a coding way to make the tech bonuses Art Gallery gets exclusive to Pacifism (though frankly, Stone Tool Maker has a similar problem).
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Valley of the Kings was done as a special wonder with those 2 in mind to give a special Golden Age if you managed to build both wonders in the same city. its more of a Reward than a Wonder since no one else can get it since it requires both.
I wanted to have a similar Wonder for the Las Vegas Strip and having different Vegas Wonders but I don't think Vokarya liked that idea.
The problem is that the Housing (Palaces) get replaced and they are more or less just a shortened name for "Medium Density High Wealth Housing of the Ancient/Classical Era". I could have just as well called them "Grand Villas" (which is actually another buildings name).
Praetyre
King
Well, I s'pose Apadana/Potala could just require the same things Housing (Palaces) requires, but we're putting off any changes to housing for a good while, so... anyway, I noticed the Palace of Potala actually increases war weariness by 25%, not decreases it.
Valley of the Kings is unique in that you have to have TWO particular Wonders in the SAME city to build it. If you build the two Wonders in different cities, or someone beats you to one, then no Valley. Your suggestions do not do this. I also have a problem with Valley in that there is no pressure to build it once you have the two Wonders, so I always wind up putting off building it until the Medieval Era (just before the Sphinx goes obsolete at Architecture). I think Valley should auto-build as soon as you get Pyramids and Sphinx together to remove this.
Requiring a Wonder as a building prerequisite for another Wonder means as soon as you build the first Wonder, it forbids any other player from trying for the second. This cuts off all the competition regarding the second Wonder, which I regard as part of the nature of Wonders. I hate being "locked out" of a Wonder -- right now, I think Circus Maximus has this as a huge problem currently, because you need Horses in the city vicinity to trigger the Horse Trainer - Chariot Workshop - Hippodrome building line that is required for the Circus. I think a little more flexibility in the Chariot Workshop requirements would help.
You are focusing far too closely on real history and not being open to the "what-ifs" that Civilization allows. There is no physical reason that one city could not build St. Mark's Basilica and a second city could not build Piazza San Marco. The same goes for Apostolic Palace/Sistine Chapel; one is a great religious meeting center and the other is a fantastic work of art. I could easily see one leader commissioning the AP and another commissioning an artist to paint a building that becomes the Chapel.
Notre Dame was not DESIGNED to be Christian in a gameplay sense. Look at the original BTS Wonders. None of them require any specific religion; some require that you have a State Religion, but doesn't specify which one. All of the Wonders that do require specific religions are Wonders we added. I don't think we should be changing the religious balance.
Again, you're too focused on real history.
I've told you this before in PM's, but I don't think this is necessarily the way to go with buildings. I specifically rejected requiring a Casino for Monte Carlo because it was built as a resort. There wasn't a Casino there first, unlike Las Vegas Strip where there were little casinos first that established Vegas as a gambling destination before the Strip was created.
I didn't say I didn't like it, I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. I think I will make individual casino National Wonders for the Strip to allow you to customize it, but not take up World Wonder slots.
Another thing I have to point out as a problem with resource conditions: Sculptures only come from Sculptor's Workshop. Sculptor's Workshop goes obsolete at Realism. Once you reach Realism, you can't build anything that requires Sculptures without trading with a less-than-advanced civilization, and that doesn't feel right.
I would suggest instead of requiring Sculptures as a resource, instead require one of the Artist buildings (Art Gallery, Artists' Colony, Sculptor's Workshop) to represent the facilities needed to build a sculpture of the size needed to count as a Wonder.
I would suggest instead of requiring Sculptures as a resource, instead require one of the Artist buildings (Art Gallery, Artists' Colony, Sculptor's Workshop) to represent the facilities needed to build a sculpture of the size needed to count as a Wonder.
At most, the Art Gallery gets +19 culture/turn. Those bonuses date from way before we doubled the culture thresholds for each level, so I don't think it would be too gamebreaking to make Art Gallery a non-civic building and let it keep all the culture bonuses, compared to all the +X% culture buildings we have now.
Furthermore, you will never be able to build an Art Gallery without all of Aesthetics, Free Artistry, Oil Painting, Perspective, and Sculpture, so I suggest adding those bonuses directly to the Art Gallery (starting it at +6 culture/turn) instead of calling them out as individual bonuses. The principle here is "it's not a bonus if there is never a situation where you don't get the bonus".
It's not a balance issue, it's you are forcing the Kremlin to built in only a limited number of cities. I don't see why any city with the right size and materials couldn't erect a citadel that would serve as a focal point for organizing your economy (in terms of the reduced hurry costs).
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
That's not a bad idea. Especially now that we can do that (before we could not auto-build).
Well my idea was opposite. Rather than the buildings depending upon the strip it was the strip that depend on the buildings. Like the Valley of the Kings you could get a golden age if you built all the Vegas Wonders in one city.
I could always just push back the obsolete tech or have it upgrade into some modern sculpture making building.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
One more thing needs to be done to finish this. Buildings that require a manufactured resource need to have the tech that provides the building that gives that resource as a prerequsite if that tech is not already a prerequsite to the enabling tech.
EG The Sphinx and The Pyramids should have the tech Sculpture as a requirement since they require sculptures. This just makes things clearer in the pedia text for the buildings.
I don't know if it would be possible to auto do this in the pedia - that would be the ideal.
EG The Sphinx and The Pyramids should have the tech Sculpture as a requirement since they require sculptures. This just makes things clearer in the pedia text for the buildings.
I don't know if it would be possible to auto do this in the pedia - that would be the ideal.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Dancing Hoskuld
I undid those in my last edit to his Project Hades mod. That's one of the main reason why I did not do those requests because of the conflicts yet he decided to make them anyways.
I am thinking about just turning off Project Hades all together to avoid more of these issues.
I undid those in my last edit to his Project Hades mod. That's one of the main reason why I did not do those requests because of the conflicts yet he decided to make them anyways.
I am thinking about just turning off Project Hades all together to avoid more of these issues.
Similar threads
