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A proposal for ideology names

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by tu_79, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. De_Genius

    De_Genius Warlord

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    I only play on Marathon speed on huge maps, and almost whether I go heavy on culture or not, I get the 18 policies during the Industrial age, sometimes early, sometimes late, but almost always in Industrial age.
    That is also why it to me made no sense to delay those Policy wonders, since I previously got them more or less when I finished the tree, whereas now I have to wait quite a bit to be able to build them.
     
  2. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    Main reason for the delay of ideology was to weaken the
    "Tech leader => Culture leader"
    Being the first to have an ideology should be a reward for having the best culture, not the best science. So unlock trough 18 policies should be the norm, and unlock trough era should be the exception.

    Moreover, it was linked to one of the first policy slow-down :
    +Before, policy trees were "ancient, medieval, rennaissance (and ideology at industrial)", and you would reach rennaissance before finishing their medieval tree. And if you wanted to finish the rennaissance tree before ideologies, you had to drop the medieval tree finisher, which was not very fun.
    +The solution was "push back rennaissance tree to industrial era". But then, we had to chose an different era for the ideologies, for the same reason. The solution was to consider the linear pacing : "We consider that a non-cultural civ unlock 3 policy per era, making them finish ancient tree at the begining of the medieval era, medieval tree at the begining of the industrial era, and industrial tree at the begining of the atomic era".
     
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  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'm a professional historian at heart, and I don't see it as being that out of the ordinary for it to be autocracy/order/freedom. We all know that they're abstract representatives of the triarch of ideologies that - at one point or another - dominated or emerge as a worldwide concept during the 20th century.

    G
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I will preface my thoughts by saying I am really not bugged by this one way or the other.

    First off, the game publishers were under political constraints that a modding community is not. If they had actually named a policy tree fascism there is a very good chance that they would have had to either change the game for sale in Italy/Germany, or not have been able to sell the game at all. There is a very good reason why Hitler is a modded civ, and not in the base game. 2K would have dredged up uncomfortable national memories, enough that they would be flirting with at least a boycott.

    Now, is that something that CBP should change because the modders aren't selling a product? Just because they CAN flirt with controversy doesn't necessarily make it interesting. I don't think there is a strong reason to do so.

    Now, as for the names themselves: Freedom, Order and Autocracy. If they WERE to be changed I would call them Freedom, Equality, and Fervor/Pride

    Freedom: At its core, liberal ideas like those of Hobbes, Locke and Smith are rooted in an intense interest and discourse on how to describe and maximize freedom. Freedom, in Liberalism, is an end in itself, based on a belief that individuals are best suited to defining and bringing about their own happiness. Now does that mean that everyone in a liberal society is 'free' or 'happy'? Of course not. Churchill once said “democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried.” But, an obsession with freedom through individualism is what defines liberalism as an ideology, so I think it is apt.
    Only a free person can be happy.

    Order/Equality: Marxism is not really about order. In fact, late-stage/Utopian Marxism is best described as a brand of anarchy. The command economies which were informed by marxist ideology were more a means to an end; the core value of Marxism is emancipation of people through the elimination of inequality.
    Only when we are equal can we be free.

    Fervour/Pride: Autocracy isn't even an ideal, it is a system of government. This never made much sense to me. At its core, Fascism is radical nationalism; the needs and goals of the state supersede the individual. Why be free when you can be great? Why be equal with others when you can be better than? Or, if I must couch this within a discussion of freedom:
    True freedom is only found in service to a greater cause.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  5. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    I like it that way, with the Civ ideologies as abstract representatives. They're clearly based on the real-world ideologies, but leave enough room for imagination. Autocracy in your game doesn't need to be identical to real-world fascism, or Order to Marxism.
     
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  6. Hosannah

    Hosannah Chieftain

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    I know this is off-topic, but I couldn't find a discussion thread for idiology tenets, so I'm gonna post this here. However, please feel free to point me in the right direction.

    Long story short, I believe that Lebensraum should be changed into something else like Territorial Expansion or whatever. Why? Even though the concept came into existence in German history during the phase of imperial colonization at the end of the 19th century, it was taken to the terrible extreme by the Nazies during WW2 and that's what it is essentially known for since then. Here's an excerpt from the Lebensraum wikipedia page which sums it up quite well:

    Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into East-Central Europe. The Nazi Generalplan Ostpolicy (the Master Plan for the East) was based on its tenets. It stipulated that most of the indigenous populations of Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, death, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and other Slavic nations considered racially inferior and non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter. The entire populations were to be decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany.

    Hitler's strategic program for world domination was based on the belief in the power of Lebensraum, pursued by a racially superior society. People deemed to be part of inferior races, within the territory of Lebensraum expansion, were subjected to expulsion or destruction. The eugenics of Lebensraum assumed the right of the German Aryan master race (Herrenvolk) to remove indigenous people they considered to be of inferior racial stock (Untermenschen) in the name of their own living space.


    As you can see, this is as bad as it gets when it comes to Nazi idiology. I simply don't think that such a concept or the word alone should be used lightly in any game since this is easily in line with concepts such as Endlösung (the "final solution" to the so called "Jew questions" -> total extermination). Imagine if you implemented that as a tenet, or Holocaust for that matter.

    However, if, for whatever reason, people want to stick with it, the bonus and description should be changed to reflect what's actually behind it: Extermination/Deportation/Enslavement of indigenous people reduces a conquered city's population to 10% and each conquered tile creates a food and production bonus for existing cities or something like that.
     
  7. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    Since I mostly don't care about names of things as long as it is not completely counter-intuitive, I'm not against a change, but since most people do not have the reference of what is Lebensraum, I don't think that's a real problem.

    I consider as far more criticizable the fact that the China's Great Leap Forward is an existing tenet giving two free technologies. But we are also talking of a game where using inquisitors to purge the religion of a city is something that has littlerally no drawbacks (and can even increase the happiness of the citizens), so I guess morality and realism are less important than good gameplay.
     
  8. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Citadel double tile stealing is what matters here. Do you have another name that could fit better the action of stealing more lands for only your people abuse by raw power?

    There are other awful things happening in this game. Try a nuclear war. You can raze into oblivion any race, if you wish (though it's not the best strategy for winning). Your spies are actually assassinating great people. You pillage lands when at war, starving innocent people. We could even blame all those action CoD games.

    Good thing is that all those awful things are just pretending.
     
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  9. Hosannah

    Hosannah Chieftain

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    I'm sure there must be a more neutral and !better fitting! term to describe the given functionality. I certainly realize that civilization depicts war and such, Civ4 even had slavery as a civic, I just think using Nazi terminology is unecessary here. If you're looking for a german term you could go with Expansionsdrang which is the need for expansion or simply expansionism. Alternatively, you might simply go with "territorial expansion" or maybe forced/armed expansion which is what Russia does these days (no offense).

    Believe me, I have thought quite a lot about this before writing this post. I'm certainly no nitpicker who thinks that anything and everything has to cater to the sensibilites of each and every person, I just think that the use of this term is both unnecessary and unwarranted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  10. ashendashin

    ashendashin King

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    The name is fairly recent, fits perfectly as a tenet to an ideology (like communism! That other tenet with such a pleasant history), and gives some small acknowledgement of the history surrounding the abstract term "Autocracy". You're playing a terrible game of favorites if that name stands out among the many atrocities that you commit in civ. For the game to be even more careful around this topic isn't something I'd be happy with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  11. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Really don't see how Lebensraum is any worse than some of the order tenets.
     
  12. Hosannah

    Hosannah Chieftain

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    That's like saying a tenet that gives you a boost in gold and production while loosing a few percent of your population is a great fit to be called Holocaust. I'm sorry, but if you've read the description to Lebensraum (-erweiterung) you should realize that it's a far more terrible concept than just an additional gain from military expansion or Communism for that matter (which was used in the end to commit a lot of atrocities but in itself is not a concept that is either bad or good). The Lebensraum idiology is based on the dehumanization of distinct groups of people which are considered to be worthless races and therefore free to be exterminated. If you cannot understand that this goes a little beyond the functionality within civ I don't know what will. Again, I'm not again the tenet, I just think there should be a word with a less difficult historical inclination. After all, most tenets have a very generic, neutral description.
     
  13. ashendashin

    ashendashin King

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    It does not need to be an exact copy of what the Nazis planned. It was something in history that was used to some effect, same as Communism. If you truly wish to argue that Communism was in fact used to commit atrocities whilst being neutral in itself, then a similar argument can be made for Lebensraum, since it's not an event, but a concept. Even the worst concepts have been manipulated throughout history. German atrocities do not need to be censored to high heaven in a game about historical civilization. They were the ones to apply these autocratic policies to strong effect, after all. Ideologies aren't exactly fun when applied to life, and completely ignoring those who did try such things in a video game depicting them makes no sense.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    By what I understand, Lebensraum and ethnic purge are different things. The first refers to the necessity of a nation of more lands to assure the survival of that nation, expansionism if you like. Controlling a region doesn't mean that you need to pursue all non national people out of that region. If you add xenophobia and fascism to the lebensraum idea, then yes, it comes with horrid connotations. So, if you take Autocracy for fun, remember what you are up to.

    In fact, nationalism sounds like a rational ideology (people who lead a nation must belong to that nation, a single nation must be in one single country), until you take it to the extreme (people not belonging to the nation have no rights).
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The sheer fact that all players are forced to choose an ideology (i.e. an intractable set of values that are only valid if you are within the belief bubble of the ideology itself, and is in opposition to all other ideologies) should highlight that civ is a caricature of real history.

    G
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Lebensraum was a theory for remaining self-sufficient and not having to rely on the rest of the world. It is kinda closely related to the hunger-plan which was the plan to get rid of the people living in the areas needed for self-sufficiency by starving and working them to death. I mean yeah you can definitely draw the connection there, but might I remind you that an order policy is called "Great Leap Forward" a brilliant scheme that killed upwards of 50 million people.
     
  17. Jakman217

    Jakman217 Chieftain

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    Civ is at best limp-wristed in its atrocities. Be glad for that. Play Stellaris if you want to actually feel like a Nazi.
     
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  18. Hosannah

    Hosannah Chieftain

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    Well, and this is where you're wrong. When that particular word is used you always get the real deal, i.e. inferior races need to be exterminated so that the master race may prosper. There is no way to use this term in a different way like there is no way to use the N-word in a different way (as a white persion anyway, I realize in this case there are exceptions). It's not ambiguous. It means what it means, just like Holocaust does. You see, Lebensraum actually translates as habitat and would only be used in German in connection with animals. Animals may increase their habitat by killing other animals even of their own kind/race, but nobody would ever question that because it's survival of the fittest, animals have no morals etc. That is the reason, why the Nazis transferred this concept onto humans when they started using this term for their plans because it makes the expansion of territory while exterminating the prior inhabitants sound as if there's no alternative.

    @Funak Saying the Lebensraum concept was a theory to remain self-sufficient is like saying racial segregation was a theory to keep things nice and tidy. Also, the Great Leap Forward was not designed to kill 50 million people. It did, and so did communism, but both were not "bad" by design.

    Anyways, at this point, I'm just gonna stop. Unless you haven't noticed, you should know that I am German. Neither does the use of this term hurt my sensibilities nor am I trying to brush over or cover up the atrocities commited by Germany during WW2. I simply wanted to point out that this term should not be used lightly, in fact I still believe that it should not be used without context, i.e. the way it's used at the moment. Using it for the sake of describing merely the process of forceful territorial expansion is incorrect and in fact brushes over the real atrocity that this theory was and what it led to.
     
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  19. Hosannah

    Hosannah Chieftain

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    Next time you feel like speaking up, better make sure to contribute something useful.
     
  20. RAuer2

    RAuer2 Chieftain

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    I found Jakman's post useful. A friend of mine recently began playing Stellaris and enjoys talking with me about the game. His ability to do Bad Things in a game is far greater in Stellaris than in Civ. I think that was Jakman's point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
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