A question of perspective on "my black friend"

[civver_764]

You didn't ask one. You made a statement, and then typed "?", which isn't the same thing.

Pretty sure if a sentence is in the form "Is it A, or is it B?" that makes it a question. To be perfectly clear, I want you to hear your view on BLM riots.

By "care about racism", we mean taking racial injustice seriously, and you've stated that this isn't something you have the time or inclination to do.

You just restated the same thing. What does "taking racial injustice seriously" entail? Surely it's more than calling people racist on the internet.

I already explained where you made it clear to the rest of us. So here's a good idea for while you "keep waiting." Hold your breath. That suits the childish nature of your posts.

AKA you're just making stuff up and you're running out of deflection tactics so now you've resorted to calling me names.

 

[warpus]

Great. Not at all the point, or what the thread was about, but great.

To try to get back to the point, the "my black friend" in the thread title doesn't refer to any actual person. It refers to the standard debate tactic racists routinely employ of attributing whatever absurd rhetoric they are spouting to "my black friend" as a way to make it seem credible.

The thread kind of seemed stuck tbh, so I wanted to mix it up with a slightly different approach.

But yeah, I have seen the thing you describe in action. "I am white, i can't possibly be racist against white people", "I have an asian friend so it's okay", "You're one of the good ones", etc.

I just don't see much discussion potential there I guess. Racists will be racist

 

[Traitorfish]

Pretty sure if a sentence is in the form "Is it A, or is it B?" that makes it a question. To be perfectly clear, I want you to hear your view on BLM riots.

If someone say "A", and you say "do you mean A, or B?", you are not asking a question in good faith. Of course they mean A: they just said A. If they had meant B, they would have said B. To ask if they actually mean B, knowing full well that they meant A, is to say that A is mistaken, and that B, instead, is correct. Structuring it as a question is merely a rhetorical flourish.

As for the riots, I don't think that there is any such thing as "BLM riots". There have been BLM demonstrations at which no violence interactions between police and demonstrators occurred. There's a venn diagram of "BLM demonstrations" and "violent police-public interactions", but to present this as "BLM riots" is to suggest that these were riots carried out by the BLM movement, collectively, or at least which flow from their aims or tactics and so which the movement shares some collectively guilt for. That's reactionary drivel.

Riots happen, it's a fact of life in the modern age. They're not a result of Bad Ideas or even, in any straightforward way, of Bad People, but of unresolved social and political tensions spilling over into public violence.

You just restated the same thing. What does "taking racial injustice seriously" entail? Surely it's more than calling people racist on the internet.

The first step is to listen to what minority activists have to say, to take acknowledge and consider their criticisms, rather to dismiss them as violent seditionists or, all the more horrifying, deliberate inconveniencers of nice, moderate white people. You don't have to agree with any specific point they make, or indeed with any of their points, but you should at least hear them out.

 

[civver_764]

Thank you for your response, Traitorfish.

If someone say "A", and you say "do you mean A, or B?", you are not asking a question in good faith. Of course they mean A: they just said A. If they had meant B, they would have said B. To ask if they actually mean B, knowing full well that they meant A, is to say that A is mistaken, and that B, instead, is correct. Structuring it as a question is merely a rhetorical flourish.

I'll grant you that it came across as kind of snarky. However, I really was asking the question in good faith. As I said, I'm not very educated on this issue. I've just heard general claims from both sides. "Black people are being murdered by police!" on the one extreme and "BLM is a terrorist organization that encourages rioting" on the other extreme.

As for the riots, I don't think that there is any such thing as "BLM riots". There have been BLM demonstrations at which no violence interactions between police and demonstrators occurred. There's a venn diagram of "BLM demonstrations" and "violent police-public interactions", but to present this as "BLM riots" is to suggest that these were riots carried out by the BLM movement, collectively, or at least which flow from their aims or tactics and so which the movement shares some collectively guilt for. That's reactionary drivel.

Riots happen, it's a fact of life in the modern age. They're not a result of Bad Ideas or even, in any straightforward way, of Bad People, but of unresolved social and political tensions spilling over into public violence.

OK, point taken. Are there then instances of tear gas being used where the demonstration was peaceful? That seems to be the crucial point.

The first step is to listen to what minority activists have to say, to take acknowledge and consider their criticisms, rather to dismiss them as violent seditionists or, all the more horrifying, deliberate inconveniencers of nice, moderate white people. You don't have to agree with any specific point they make, or indeed with any of their points, but you should at least hear them out.

I have no problem listening to these activists, and I don't think I ever suggested otherwise. Also it seems like you're downplaying what rioting is. It's more than inconvenient if your house gets burned down, dude. And why are you bringing race into this? I don't want anyone's house getting burned down, no matter what color their skin is.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

AKA you're just making stuff up and you're running out of deflection tactics so now you've resorted to calling me names.

The only thing I ran out of was the patience to answer the same question over and over and over yet again.

I get it. You think it is unfair that I've drawn a conclusion based upon the posts you have made. You think that conclusion isn't accurate...and it may well not be accurate. But all I have to go on is what you've posted. I don't know you any other way, so that's what I have to work with.

So, if you don't like the image you've presented, who is to blame? You are free to blame me...and everyone who seems to agree with me. In fact that fits right in.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I've seen the "I have a black friend" excuse, just as I've seen the "Do you have any black friends" or "Do you even know any black people" and the "Oh, he lives in an area that is 95% white, so his opinion doesn't count" type responses. These kinds of responses are usually just as bad (and sometimes what prompts the "I have a black friend" response in the first place).

There is 'associates', 'friends' and 'best friends'. The OP refers to the two extremes: 'associates' (people you may know by name, but don't really hang out with, except maybe a rare drink together) and 'best friends' (people you are very close with). Associates you don't invite to your wedding, you do invite your friends, and the 'best friends' are the groomsmen (or bridesmaids) in your wedding.

No, I don't have any black best friends or black friends, so I would not be somebody's 'white' friend*. But that's more down to opportunity than racism. And I don't make friends easily, regardless of their skin color.

*Though there may be some of my wife's family in China who thinks of me as their white friend, relative or whatever (though they would probably say "American" instead of white, most chinese would think of white people when they hear 'American'.)

I car-pooled with a black man, briefly, until he got a job with the railroad. There was three of us, so he would say I was "One of the white guys I carpool with", though I really doubt he would word it like that. One black co-worker helped hook me up with another co-worker, which turned out to be a terrible relationship, but that wasn't his fault, none of us knew what she was really like outside of work (pill-popper). I've been in a black bar (owner is black, 90% of the customers is black, any white people in there is more often than not a female), so at that bar I might have been "The white guy". But these were all 10-20 years ago.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I've seen the "I have a black friend" excuse, just as I've seen the "Do you have any black friends" or "Do you even know any black people" and the "Oh, he lives in an area that is 95% white, so his opinion doesn't count" type responses. These kinds of responses are usually just as bad (and sometimes what prompts the "I have a black friend" response in the first place).

There is 'associates', 'friends' and 'best friends'. The OP refers to the two extremes: 'associates' (people you may know by name, but don't really hang out with, except maybe a rare drink together) and 'best friends' (people you are very close with). Associates you don't invite to your wedding, you do invite your friends, and the 'best friends' are the groomsmen (or bridesmaids) in your wedding.

No, I don't have any black best friends or black friends, so I would not be somebody's 'white' friend*. But that's more down to opportunity than racism. And I don't make friends easily, regardless of their skin color.

*Though there may be some of my wife's family in China who thinks of me as their white friend, relative or whatever (though they would probably say "American" instead of white, most chinese would think of white people when they hear 'American'.)

I car-pooled with a black man, briefly, until he got a job with the railroad. There was three of us, so he would say I was "One of the white guys I carpool with", though I really doubt he would word it like that. One black co-worker helped hook me up with another co-worker, which turned out to be a terrible relationship, but that wasn't his fault, none of us knew what she was really like outside of work (pill-popper). I've been in a black bar (owner is black, 90% of the customers is black, any white people in there is more often than not a female), so at that bar I might have been "The white guy". But these were all 10-20 years ago.

That's more on point...thanks. I intended this to be a way of looking at, and possibly working past, the "I have a black friend" gambit.

Point of interest...the guy you carpooled with might be exactly what I was referring to here, because I can easily see the possibility of him saying "the white guy I carpool with" or "used to carpool with." Because I know these kind of conversations happen among people other than white people too. If there are a number of black guys and someone gets saying "white people this and white people that" your former car pool mate may very well say something like "I used to carpool with this white guy and he..." He might even overplay it a little bit and say "my white friend..." because people do that.

So the question (this is general, not specific to BamSpeedy, even though he gave a specific example situation) becomes, did you give that guy ammunition to fight the good fight? Is he saying "my white friend is a stand up guy"? Is he saying "man, I know this white guy that always treats me right enough, but the dude is just f'ing clueless about what's going on, and seems like he refuses to see anything outside his own white bread point of view"? Or is he the one saying "I work with this white guy and we talk about basketball on the breaks, but man he is one racist POS...and probably thinks I'm his friend because I put up with him so I don't get fired"?

 

[Berzerker]

In just about every conversation about race and racism in America at some point the person defending the most blatantly racist position will cite "my black friend" in an effort to bandage their wounded credibility. This actually is such common practice that it makes it difficult for me when I mention that I have black friends, since it has developed into a trigger that makes people wonder what racist position I'm trying to defend.

Black opinions matter

I suspect that the reality is that almost everyone, no matter how racist their mindset, probably does have "a black friend." It just may require a little latitude in defining "friend." For example, if you include "guy at work who I might talk sports with on a break" that allows a lot of people to have a black friend who might not have one if you limit friends to "guy who's son I would like to see dating my daughter because being family with them is an attractive proposition."

Parents want the best for their kids and thats true across the world. And that means marrying within their culture, their religion, their tribe, their status, their "race", etc. 'Apostates' generally face more discrimination so what parent would welcome that into their child's life? On the other hand, mixed race people seem to be better looking and probably better protected from a wider variety of diseases. I could use less Irish and more of something else closer to the equator. Course didn't Bob Marley die from skin cancer? Being mixed race didn't protect him, the Scottish(?) did him in.

 

[civver_764]

You think it is unfair that I've drawn a conclusion based upon the posts you have made. You think that conclusion isn't accurate...and it may well not be accurate. But all I have to go on is what you've posted. I don't know you any other way, so that's what I have to work with.

You can't even tell me what this conclusion that you're drawing is.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You can't even tell me what this conclusion that you're drawing is.

Nope, because you'd report me for calling you names. But I did tell you where you could look at things you said that lead me to such a conclusion.

 

[civver_764]

Nope, because you'd report me for calling you names.

More like because you're full of crap, lol.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

More like because you're full of crap, lol.

Whatever makes you feel better about being despised man. Most people do prefer to take no responsibility for what people think of them.

 

[jackelgull]

Honest answers, do you think there is someone out there talking about their "white friend" and meaning you?

No because I'm not white.

(Sorry, you left yourself open for that one)

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No because I'm not white.

(Sorry, you left yourself open for that one)

No sweat...I doubt you have ever used the "my black friend says..." gambit, or ever will.

 

[civver_764]

Whatever makes you feel better about being despised man. Most people do prefer to take no responsibility for what people think of them.

What do people think of me, Tim?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What do people think of me, Tim?

Why do you feel the need to ask?

 

[civver_764]

Why do you feel the need to ask?

Because I know you don't have an answer and I want to see how far you're gonna take this.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Because I know you don't have an answer and I want to see how far you're gonna take this.

LOL...I dunno, how far do you wanna go?

 

[Hygro]

No you hang up

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No you hang up

LOL...who you calling a hang up?