A question on the issue of free will

[cardgame]

I was watching a movie last night, (Aliens vs. Humans, intergalactic war, you know, the works) and this guy was thinking about signing up for the army. He asked an officer he knew, and the officer said "Make your own choice. That's the only real freedom any of us have." (Earth was one-world-gov, with fascist tendencies)

And it struck me, do you really even have a choice to make your own choice? We are products of our environment; if I, say, was bit by a horse through no fault or will of my own when I was 7 years old, and it scarred me for life, is it really a choice to say "no" when your friend wants you to try horseback riding later? Is that really your choice to make, or were you set along a predetermined path in your subconscious when you were bit at seven years old?

 

[PeteAtoms]

Watch:

50 First Dates
Groundhog Day

These movies will make you ponder free will.
I don't believe in free will because there is only one thing, that you would do, at any point in your life. You would never do something, that you wouldn't do...

 

[Glassfan]

It would be easy to say no. But through courage (or counselling) you could say yes. You have a choice (freedom), but there are always costs and consequences.

The example you used is one of a learned behavior. Horses can bite-stay away. But a cat that burns itself on a hot stove "learns" never to get on the stove ever again - even when it's cold. As humans, we can unlearn (inappropriate) behaviors. You can and should get right back up on that horse - exercise human choice.

And then go back and kill that old horse - that's something else humans do - payback.

 

[LightFang]

I was watching a movie last night, (Aliens vs. Humans, intergalactic war, you know, the works) and this guy was thinking about signing up for the army. He asked an officer he knew, and the officer said "Make your own choice. That's the only real freedom any of us have." (Earth was one-world-gov, with fascist tendencies)

And it struck me, do you really even have a choice to make your own choice? We are products of our environment; if I, say, was bit by a horse through no fault or will of my own when I was 7 years old, and it scarred me for life, is it really a choice to say "no" when your friend wants you to try horseback riding later? Is that really your choice to make, or were you set along a predetermined path in your subconscious when you were bit at seven years old?

Welcome to Determinism! Sit down, have some coffee. Don't worry, it's not as bad as you think.

 

[Greizer85]

Oh God no... We had 15 pages of headbanging on this not too long ago. You see, some people claim that determinism and free will are actually compatible. (Arguments against determinism itself were few and far between in that thread)

I'm not going to get involved in this debate again. It was fun but too time-consuming for little benefit imo (in retrospect at least). FWIW, I believe that we are slaves that have only an illusion of freedom, and there is no helping it. Luckily I am destined not to care too much about it.

 

[Souron]

Oh boy, here we go again...

In my view, we as people are deterministic, and predictable. But we do own our choices because they are the product of ourselves, not forced upon us by an external force.

In the OP, saying "no" to horseback riding is inevitable, but it is a choice. Experience shapes our choices, but the original events do not own them.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Oh boy, here we go again...

In my view, we as people are deterministic, and predictable. But we do own our choices because they are the product of ourselves, not forced upon us by an external force.

If we are "deterministic and predictable" are we "responsible"?

 

[Greizer85]

Oh boy, here we go again...

In my view, we as people are deterministic, and predictable. But we do own our choices because they are the product of ourselves, not forced upon us by an external force.

In the OP, saying "no" to horseback riding is inevitable, but it is a choice. Experience shapes our choices, but the original events do not own them.

*is tempted*

*resists temptation*

 

[LightFang]

If we are "deterministic and predictable" are we "responsible"?

Yes and no. Let us accept hard determinism, i.e., free will is an illusion. Murdering someone may not be your choice, then--but locking you up in prison is still a good idea, because you will probably go on to harm others, and stowing you away in prison would be the best for the rest of society.

 

[classical_hero]

Those who deny free will are generally those who want to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

 

[Souron]

If we are "deterministic and predictable" are we "responsible"?

As a Compatibilist, I would say yes.

(But you knew that already)

 

[Bill3000]

Those who deny free will are generally those who want to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

I agree. Calvinism is irresponsible and no one should succumb or be influenced by this dangerous heresy.

 

[Narz]

And it struck me, do you really even have a choice to make your own choice? We are products of our environment; if I, say, was bit by a horse through no fault or will of my own when I was 7 years old, and it scarred me for life, is it really a choice to say "no" when your friend wants you to try horseback riding later? Is that really your choice to make, or were you set along a predetermined path in your subconscious when you were bit at seven years old?

You could make a choice to work to overcome your fear of horses. However, that choice itself (and whether you are able to presist enough to achieve said choice) may not really be a choice.

I used to be big into free will, I wanted to believe in it. Now I'm not so sure but kind of fall on the side that it probably doesn't really exist. We may as well act like it does though, IMO, it's better for our psychological health (as is believing in a benevolent universe, though of course it's much trendier to believe in a totally indifferent universe ).

Watch:

50 First Dates
Groundhog Day

These movies will make you ponder free will.
I don't believe in free will because there is only one thing, that you would do, at any point in your life. You would never do something, that you wouldn't do...

I thought Groundhog Day was great (one of the best IMO) but how particularly did it make you think about free will?

 

[PeteAtoms]

Those who deny free will are generally those who want to relieve themselves of personal responsibility.

What a cheap thing to say.

What if I said:
1) People who believe in Heaven are just afraid of dying.
2) Religious people are just sheep, believing any ol' thing their parents tell 'em to.
3) YEC's bend the facts to fit their preconceived world view
4) People deny determinism because they're just afraid/disturbed by the implications
5) People believe in hell so they can tell infidels/heathens where to go (to feel more righteous than thou)

I can go on and on. And I apologize if any of the above resemble anyone's own opinions, not based on a true story, and likeness is purely coincidental /disclaimer.

 

[PeteAtoms]

I thought Groundhog Day was great (one of the best IMO) but how particularly did it make you think about free will?

Well in the movie, everyone does the exact same thing every single "day." Why would they do that, unless their actions/choices are based on their "yesterday" or initial conditions. I see them as a function of yesterday being put into motion "today." How could Bill Murray predict what everyone was going to do, if they are all free to do other things instead?

 

[LightFang]

Well in the movie, everyone does the exact same thing every single "day." Why would they do that, unless their actions/choices are based on their "yesterday" or initial conditions. I see them as a function of yesterday being put into motion "today." How could Bill Murray predict what everyone was going to do, if they are all free to do other things instead?

That may be true, but quantum physics has exorcised Laplace's Demon. A movie isn't real life. I will grant that it did make you think about free will though, which I guess is the important part.

 

[PeteAtoms]

That may be true, but quantum physics has exorcised Laplace's Demon. A movie isn't real life. I will grant that it did make you think about free will though, which I guess is the important part.

Ok, so now can conclude that free will doesn't exist because of the random nature of quantum physics.

Randomness or determinism, neither are very free.

 

[azzaman333]

Either I have free will, or I'm happy to pretend I have free will. It's not going to change how I live my life.

 

[Monsterzuma]

To make a personal choice is to act according to one's innate dispositions. While these dispositions are largely dependent on factors "outside our own control" we posess choice relative to these dispositions. We are "free" in as far as these dispositions are unobstructed in bringing themselves to expression through our actions.

 

[warpus]

The decisions you make are in a big way reliant on the environmental factors at play (your setting, past experiences, rabid horses, etc.), but that's not to say that you do (or do not) have free will.