A question to Communists:

[BasketCase]

Again, not the same

Apples and oranges are both round, both edible, both contain seeds, and are about the same size.

If the voters see the box the entire time between the last vote and them dumping the tokens on the floor )with clear ways of making sure no one swamps tokens between piles, no problems should occur.

One magic trick I specialize in is making coins pass through a tabletop. The trick uses no gimmicks of any kind. The table is unprepared, and the coins are ordinary half dollars.

The trick begins with four coins in my left hand. I show all four coins to you, close my hand, slap down on the tabletop, and bring one of the four coins out from under the table. Then I open my left hand....and there are only three coins left in it.

I can do this two feet from your face and you will never see how I do it. My hands never touch each other. I never get a chance to dip into one hand to swipe a coin.


Problems will occur.

Of course, its going to be in "another" country, namely a country with a relatively free media and somewhat liberal government (well it could go in the opposite but it would be alot harder), such as the US, that way were practically free from genocide (mass arrest being more likely) and even if genocide was commited it would show the populace the faulties of the government.

Name that country, please.

 

[greenpeace]

Congrats Basketcase, we snatched page 42 all for ourselves!

Apples and oranges are both round, both edible, both contain seeds, and are about the same size.

You can compare apples and oranges, but not Pakistan to the society.

One magic trick I specialize in is making coins pass through a tabletop. The trick uses no gimmicks of any kind. The table is unprepared, and the coins are ordinary half dollars.

The trick begins with four coins in my left hand. I show all four coins to you, close my hand, slap down on the tabletop, and bring one of the four coins out from under the table. Then I open my left hand....and there are only three coins left in it.

I can do this two feet from your face and you will never see how I do it. My hands never touch each other. I never get a chance to dip into one hand to swipe a coin.


Problems will occur.

Good magic trick but you can't rig an election that way you need to both take a token out of one box and put a second one in the other box in a very short time.

Name that country, please.

The US is a good example seeing as how when it attacked its ~15 year long enemy (the communists/viet cong) it eventually caused massive unrest and political opposition. Now imagine trying to wipe off a people who do virtually no harm to themselves or America. I mean the way many would view it would be a nothing group doing little at all to even affect America (let alone harm it) being ruthlessly slaughtered off.

 

[BasketCase]

Congrats Basketcase, we snatched page 42 all for ourselves!

So what? That means nobody else gives a crap.

You can compare apples and oranges, but not Pakistan to the society.

I already did. Pakistan was just one example--I compared your society to REALITY. I could halt elections in your society in the same way they've been trying to halt elections in many other societies: by blowing up polling stations; by shooting at people who get in line to vote (you don't even need to hit them, you just need them to run away so they don't vote); by claiming fraud so the election results get tied up in court and the victor can't take office.

Good magic trick but you can't rig an election that way you need to both take a token out of one box and put a second one in the other box in a very short time.

No I don't. All I need to do is get some extra tokens into ANY box so that the vote counters see that there are too many chips. Then they know that something screwy is going on. And the vote gets anulled.

Nobody said I was trying to get a candidate of MY choosing into office. What do you think I've been trying to do this whole thread? I've been trying to destroy your system COMPLETELY. If I halt your elections, I win.

The US is a good example seeing as how when it attacked its ~15 year long enemy (the communists/viet cong) it eventually caused massive unrest and political opposition. Now imagine trying to wipe off a people who do virtually no harm to themselves or America. I mean the way many would view it would be a nothing group doing little at all to even affect America (let alone harm it) being ruthlessly slaughtered off.

Waco. The Pullman strike. Ruby Ridge. Happens all the time. People try to do what you just suggested--and they get picked up by the police.

Nobody in D.C. cares if you're a harmless little society trying to live your own way. They want you to follow U.S. law--which conflicts with most of your system. So you will be either arrested or shot. Most likely the former, but I can't make any guarantees.

 

[greenpeace]

So what? That means nobody else gives a crap.

Geez, I was just joking around.

I already did. Pakistan was just one example--I compared your society to REALITY. I could halt elections in your society in the same way they've been trying to halt elections in many other societies: by blowing up polling stations; by shooting at people who get in line to vote (you don't even need to hit them, you just need them to run away so they don't vote); by claiming fraud so the election results get tied up in court and the victor can't take office.

National elections with thousands and thousands of polling stations in very turmoil heavy areas are going to have fraud, a communal decision involving a couple hundrd people at the very most over generally simple matters aren't going to be affected nearly as much, if at all.

No I don't. All I need to do is get some extra tokens into ANY box so that the vote counters see that there are too many chips. Then they know that something screwy is going on. And the vote gets anulled.

It doesn't get annulled, it just gets redone with more caution.

Nobody said I was trying to get a candidate of MY choosing into office. What do you think I've been trying to do this whole thread? I've been trying to destroy your system COMPLETELY. If I halt your elections, I win.

Either way, its still practically impossible to rig the boxes. And by the way, its possible to hear the sound of a token hitting the box, and putting in extra would make make you sound very guilty (get it? Because there is the phrase "he sounds guilty" but in this case there is an actual sound being produced by the to.... sorry, I'll stop now).

Waco. The Pullman strike. Ruby Ridge. Happens all the time. People try to do what you just suggested--and they get picked up by the police.

Nobody in D.C. cares if you're a harmless little society trying to live your own way. They want you to follow U.S. law--which conflicts with most of your system. So you will be either arrested or shot. Most likely the former, but I can't make any guarantees.

If I get arrested I get to go back once I'm out. If I get a life sentence then it will bring attention to the society. Either way, I win.
BTW, whats taking Evil Muppet so long (no rush though, Evil Muppet)?

 

[BasketCase]

Geez, I was just joking around.

I wasn't. Everybody else got bored of us and quit the thread.

 

[BasketCase]

a communal decision involving a couple hundrd people at the very most over generally simple matters aren't going to be affected nearly as much, if at all.

I already posted lots of examples where they DO. Even the mighty United States has had elections paralyzed and/or stalled for months at a time. The filibuster is a very common method.

It doesn't get annulled, it just gets redone with more caution.

Not if six polling booths got blown up by bombs and the citizens are too afraid to vote. Terrorism is a very common method for stopping elections in many parts of the world.

Either way, its still practically impossible to rig the boxes. And by the way, its possible to hear the sound of a token hitting the box

My training as a magician took this into account. Coins tend to "talk" when you're doing a routine. A magician is trained to account for this and take countermeasures.

Your claims of impossibility are crap. You think it's impossible just because YOU don't know how to do it. Guess what? When I do magic tricks, people like you are the ideal audience.

If I get arrested I get to go back once I'm out. If I get a life sentence then it will bring attention to the society. Either way, I win.

Do you really think you're the first person who ever came up with that idea??

Tell ya what: you go right ahead and do the above. Really. Honest. No reverse psychology here. I want you to do the above, because that way you're out of my hair forever.

BTW, whats taking Evil Muppet so long (no rush though, Evil Muppet)?

I told you--he got bored.

 

[greenpeace]

I already posted lots of examples where they DO. Even the mighty United States has had elections paralyzed and/or stalled for months at a time. The filibuster is a very common method.

Wait at first your talking about terrorism and bombing and now your talking about the debating process. Seriously just tell me step by step (without saying it can happen because country X had trouble) how in this system a person or group turn the system into a dictatorship throuhg election rigging.

Not if six polling booths got blown up by bombs and the citizens are too afraid to vote. Terrorism is a very common method for stopping elections in many parts of the world.

How is this relevant?

My training as a magician took this into account. Coins tend to "talk" when you're doing a routine. A magician is trained to account for this and take countermeasures.

How would you even get these new tokens in the first place?

Your claims of impossibility are crap. You think it's impossible just because YOU don't know how to do it. Guess what? When I do magic tricks, people like you are the ideal audience.

If its crap explain to me step by step how you would rig the system I described.

Do you really think you're the first person who ever came up with that idea??

How does this question have any relevance?

Tell ya what: you go right ahead and do the above. Really. Honest. No reverse psychology here. I want you to do the above, because that way you're out of my hair forever.

If you don't like the debate you can just stop you know.

I told you--he got bored.

Proove it.

 

[BasketCase]

Wait at first your talking about terrorism and bombing and now your talking about the debating process.

Of course. Because BOTH of those are ways to sabotage elections.

Seriously just tell me step by step (without saying it can happen because country X had trouble) how in this system a person or group turn the system into a dictatorship throuhg election rigging.

Your ideal society holds an election. After the voting, I accuse you of switching the voting chips. A policeman searches you and finds a bunch of forged voting chips in your pocket.

You are thrown in prison for election-rigging. What nobody ever knows is that I planted those forged chips in your pocket. See? I rigged the election without ever touching the box, rigging the box, or planting extra chips in the box.

The downfall of its own spiritual leader causes Greenpeacocracy to fall into chaos (that's what usually happens when the person behind an idea suddenly turns against it). I offer the People a new system to lead them from chaos to order. And I become their leader.

Happens all the time in the real world.

How would you even get these new tokens in the first place?

Bribe the guy who makes them. Or forge them myself.

I told you--Evil Muppet got bored.

Proove it.

Certainly.

A Poll By BasketCase

See? Almost everybody in CFC quits threads because they got distracted or got lost in the large number of threads.

Betcha didn't see that one coming.

 

[GenMarshall]

That's an old poll Basket . Created before I became involved with OT .

 

[BasketCase]

Yeah, and I see no reason why the results would change. By all means, create another one if you like.

 

[greenpeace]

Of course. Because BOTH of those are ways to sabotage elections.

Yeah, except one is a tad more ligit than the other.

Your ideal society holds an election. After the voting, I accuse you of switching the voting chips. A policeman searches you and finds a bunch of forged voting chips in your pocket.

You are thrown in prison for election-rigging. What nobody ever knows is that I planted those forged chips in your pocket. See? I rigged the election without ever touching the box, rigging the box, or planting extra chips in the box.

The downfall of its own spiritual leader causes Greenpeacocracy to fall into chaos (that's what usually happens when the person behind an idea suddenly turns against it). I offer the People a new system to lead them from chaos to order. And I become their leader.

Happens all the time in the real world.[/quote]
First of all, why would I be carrying forged tokens, wouldn't I have put them in the poll? And if I did, wouldn't there be too many votes?

Bribe the guy who makes them. Or forge them myself.

Ok, we see that there are too many votes, naturally we want to look for more forges so all forges are gone. We throughout the forges and start over. What now?

 

[BasketCase]

Right up front, GP--work on getting the quote tags right. You mess them up a lot, and every time you do, your posts become almost unreadable.

First of all, why would I be carrying forged tokens, wouldn't I have put them in the poll? And if I did, wouldn't there be too many votes?

Not all criminals are smart. For example the guy who tried to steal some copper wiring by cutting it with metal shears. Yes, it turned out to be copper electrical cable, and yes, the power was still on. True story straight from the Darwin Awards.

But you just gave me a better idea: I plant the chips in your pocket and nark to the police before the voting begins. Obviously you were planning to fix the election.....

Ok, we see that there are too many votes, naturally we want to look for more forges so all forges are gone. We throughout the forges and start over. What now?

Assuming your arrest and imprisonment don't destroy all faith in your government and cause anarchy and rioting: I make more forgeries and do it again.

Somebody blows up some polling stations in an attempt to stop an election. The police clean up the bodies and the nation tries to vote again. What happens? More bombs. This is yet another thing that happens in the real world. Zimbabwe just had the problem with accusations of fraud, AGAIN.

Your examples are fatally flawed by ridiculous idealizations. My examples are based on things that DO happen in the real world, and are therefore much more reliable.

 

[Gecko1]

Without Capitalism we wouldn't have the peanut butter jelly song.

 

[greenpeace]

FORGET EVERY REASON I HAVE EVER PROVIDED AGAINST CAPITALISM AND FOR MY SYSTEM FOR THIS ALONE IS ALL I NEED TO SAY TO PROOVE THAT CAPITALISM IS HORRIBLE:

Without Capitalism we wouldn't have the peanut butter jelly song.

Anways:

Right up front, GP--work on getting the quote tags right. You mess them up a lot, and every time you do, your posts become almost unreadable.

Sorry.

Not all criminals are smart. For example the guy who tried to steal some copper wiring by cutting it with metal shears. Yes, it turned out to be copper electrical cable, and yes, the power was still on. True story straight from the Darwin Awards.

Haha, I remember reading that story.

But you just gave me a better idea: I plant the chips in your pocket and nark to the police before the voting begins. Obviously you were planning to fix the election.....

Ok, so I have forged coins in my pocket, how can you proove that I wasn't framed? I mean you could certainly take away the coins, but you couldn't proove that it was me trying to rig the election.

Assuming your arrest and imprisonment don't destroy all faith in your government and cause anarchy and rioting: I make more forgeries and do it again.

What arrest? Just take away the coins, no need to arrest. Second, how are you going to make new forges, in the time it takes to line up (unless you could somehow magically produce forges in line without being caught).

Somebody blows up some polling stations in an attempt to stop an election. The police clean up the bodies and the nation tries to vote again. What happens? More bombs. This is yet another thing that happens in the real world. Zimbabwe just had the problem with accusations of fraud, AGAIN.

My system is much less vulnerable to such things than yours, because there is far less incentive and reason to blow up a voting station in my society than yours. Also if a bomb went off in your society it would be just as paralyzing.
In fact, every single arguement you make along this path can be applied to your system as well.

Your examples are fatally flawed by ridiculous idealizations. My examples are based on things that DO happen in the real world, and are therefore much more reliable.

Ridiculous idealizations? Your system relies on a voting system much more prone to faulty than mine and it counts its voted pretty well.

 

[BasketCase]

Ok, so I have forged coins in my pocket, how can you proove that I wasn't framed?

Doesn't work that way. You have to prove that you were.

What arrest? Just take away the coins, no need to arrest. Second, how are you going to make new forges

Steal them from the guy who makes them. Or better yet, if the guy who makes them is in on the scam and working with me.....?

My system is much less vulnerable to such things than yours

No, it is not. Yours can be beaten by one guy with a well-placed bribe or some skill at pickpocketing. Scamming votes in U.S. elections is a lot more difficult.


Why do we have the Byzantine voting system we have now? Because we used to have yours.

 

[greenpeace]

No, it is not. Yours can be beaten by one guy with a well-placed bribe or some skill at pickpocketing. Scamming votes in U.S. elections is a lot more difficult.

Ok, you seem to miss the point. I could adopt a voting system just like yours, and it wouldn't violate the laws of the society. Whatever can get the votes counted.

Doesn't work that way. You have to prove that you were.

Why would a community waste time and resources caring out a conviction if there was no evidence to support the guilt?

woah, I can find out what any post is by typing bracket quote=random name; random number followed by bracket and then bracket/quote followed by bracket and clicking the link

a

 

[BasketCase]

Reality works the other way around. When everybody sees the policeman pull the fake voting chips out of your pocket, almost everybody automatically and instinctively assumes guilt.

Ok, you seem to miss the point. I could adopt a voting system just like yours, and it wouldn't violate the laws of the society. Whatever can get the votes counted.

Such a system would indeed violate the laws of your society--you said yourself that the top authority must be the entire voting public.

My system uses a subset of the voting public. Breaks the rules of Greenpeacocracy.

It would seem I know the rules of your system better than you do.

 

[greenpeace]

Reality works the other way around. When everybody sees the policeman pull the fake voting chips out of your pocket, almost everybody automatically and instinctively assumes guilt.

Why would anyone assume guilt? Also, what charge is there? If you read the rules as long as the votes are actually rigged, then there was no harm done. The only way is to say that I eminently will create a false decision, which is even harder to assume.

Such a system would indeed violate the laws of your society--you said yourself that the top authority must be the entire voting public.

My system uses a subset of the voting public. Breaks the rules of Greenpeacocracy.

It would seem I know the rules of your system better than you do.

What do you mean it uses a subset, and why can't this subset be replaced by the group as a whole?

 

[BasketCase]

Why would anyone assume guilt?

Most Americans are religious. Most Americans believe psychic powers are real. A majority of Americans believe in UFO's (I hesitate to use the word "most" on this last one).

Very simply: because human beings are not rational.

What do you mean it uses a subset, and why can't this subset be replaced by the group as a whole?

Because most people don't wanna do it. And you said that if they don't wanna do it, it's not worth doing.

 

[greenpeace]

Most Americans are religious. Most Americans believe psychic powers are real. A majority of Americans believe in UFO's (I hesitate to use the word "most" on this last one).

Very simply: because human beings are not rational.

And, how does that affect my system more than yours (or anyone else for that matter)?

Because most people don't wanna do it. And you said that if they don't wanna do it, it's not worth doing.

Do what? See that their vote got counted? Thats definently worth it for a little effort.