A question to Communists:

[BasketCase]

My system makes the people the happiest

Then why has it never existed? You yourself said there's never been a real Greenpeacocracy.

Actually its logically impossible to prove it can work without actually doing it.

If it's impossible to prove it without doing it, and if it's never been done, then you can't claim ANYTHING.

Your system is a farce, and you are a radical nutcase.

The minute you get that first job and start collecting your paychecks (and you will), think of me, sitting next to you and laughing at you.

Edit: only forty more posts to go!

Re-edit (doing it this way to avoid bumping the thread):

My system makes the people the happiest

I prefer unwanted labor over living in a trash pile with no police or firemen. So, tell me--if I was living in your system, and I started offering people money to collect my garbage every week (which I should point out I am already doing).....how are you gonna stop me?

 

[greenpeace]

Then why has it never existed? You yourself said there's never been a real Greenpeacocracy.

One reason is there is no hierarchy and hierarchy favors those who like power, and those who can achieve power often are more able to destroy those who don't.
I would imagine its not too different to the reasons your system had not really been created as a whole before its existance.

If it's impossible to prove it without doing it, and if it's never been done, then you can't claim ANYTHING.

I can claim that the sky is blue. Similarly I can defend some basic things. Although you're right in that I'm going to have to actually start it (or someone else) to truly proove my point.

Your system is a farce, and you are a radical nutcase.

Really good arguement.

The minute you get that first job and start collecting your paychecks (and you will), think of me, sitting next to you and laughing at you.

I started work when I entered pre-school.

Re-edit (doing it this way to avoid bumping the thread):
I prefer unwanted labor over living in a trash pile with no police or firemen.

If it is wanted more than labor is unwanted than it will certainly be done.

So, tell me--if I was living in your system, and I started offering people money to collect my garbage every week (which I should point out I am already doing).....how are you gonna stop me?

Here would be the conversation:
BC: Hey Bob, want some money to hull off my garbage
Bob: What the hell are you risking your life to stay here/ what are you doing here
BC:whatever
Bob: Why would I want a bunch of green paper so much for anyways
BC: I'll give you gold trinkets
Bob: You think I would completely go against my lifestyle so that I could have something that my lifestyle doesn't gravitate toward.
BC: I'll give you whatever
Bob: Irrespective of what I have previously said the others wouldn't like us amassing huge wealth and may stop us.
BC: If I press this button it will save you're daughter from dieing
Bob: If you could so easily save someone from dieing I will bring this to the attention of the community for you are practically killing someone.

Even if a transaction went through, if you amassed anything significant it would be a threat to the well being of others giving them incentive to stop you.

What do you do when someone steals something?

 

[BasketCase]

Although you're right in that I'm going to have to actually start it (or someone else) to truly proove my point.

YAY.
Took forty pages to get him to say that--but it was worth it.

Edit: Here's how it would actually go:

BC: Hey Bob, want some money to hull off my garbage
Bob: Sure.

That's how it works all the time--at least, out here in this strangeland I call "the real world". Some few choose not to accept a paycheck, and they're generally, among other things, homeless.

Even if a transaction went through, if you amassed anything significant it would be a threat to the well being of others giving them incentive to stop you.

How would you stop me? Nobody in your town has any training as a cop.

Re-edit: Something I forgot--alternatively, suppose I bribed (or threatened!) everybody in town to get them to leave me alone? The reason I bring this up is that this happens all the time, with this specific industry. The mafia seems to take a special interest in controlling the garbage collection industry......not only in the United States, but in Naples as well! Surprised? That might be one of the reasons Naples has a problem, by the way. That article I linked did say something about criminal elements.

Capitalism is the default.

 

[holy king]

Capitalism is the default.

that's an interesting theory...
could you elaborate this, especially concerning history?
(apparently you claim there has never been another economic system?)

 

[BasketCase]

There have been different economic systems, and different forms of capitalism, but the basic idea of paying people to do work (and the use of money) is pretty much universal, even in systems that say they're non-capitalist.

 

[RedRalph]

There have been different economic systems, and different forms of capitalism, but the basic idea of paying people to do work (and the use of money) is pretty much universal, even in systems that say they're non-capitalist.

no it isnt. there has been slavery, Feudalism etc... capitalism is not a default, capitalism didnt exist for the majority of humanities histiory.

 

[BasketCase]

Actually, slavery and feudalism used the same incentive system--reward for work, punishment for failing to work.

The only difference is, these days we're a good deal less brutal about it and don't use whips on you. If you don't do work, it simply means you can't buy an X-Box.

 

[scy12]

The psychological pressure put on people related to success and consumerism of today's age in addition with a system where people can actually enjoy the reward of working efficiently beats the Whip any day of the week.

 

[RedRalph]

Actually, slavery and feudalism used the same incentive system--reward for work, punishment for failing to work.

The only difference is, these days we're a good deal less brutal about it and don't use whips on you. If you don't do work, it simply means you can't buy an X-Box.

If you seriously think capitalism is just a toned down version of slavery and feudalism, you are either far to the left of even me politically, or else know nothing about capitalism.

 

[holy king]

If you seriously think capitalism is just a toned down version of slavery and feudalism, you are either far to the left of even me politically, or else know nothing about capitalism.

i wouldnt call it far to the left of you, but it definitely is a rare theory about capitalism.
adam smith surely thought otherwise, so did weber, so did marx...
and i havent heard of any fancy post-modern philosopher or economist of any influence who thinks this way either...

 

[stormbind]

I know I am going to start a ten page debate, a flurry of angry members, a few moderaters constantly watching me, when i don't really feel up to any of it, but I really need to ask:

When Communists look around and see the great that Capitalism has done, how can't they support it? Yes, there is poverty, but that is an unfortunate part of life. With all of the great things we have here and all of the people in America making more money than anyone else in the world and having enough to buy food and luxuries, how can they still not support it.

Thank you for letting me know.

When you acknowledge poverty are you considering material, credit, or emotional wellbeing?

 

[BasketCase]

i wouldnt call it far to the left of you, but it definitely is a rare theory about capitalism.

Thanks.

When you get right down to it, the economic system we have today is merely a well-disguised form of punitive discipline. If you don't do work, you don't get money, which means you can't buy food, a house, or an X-Box. Meaning you have to build your own house and grow your own food, things most people can't or won't do.

The basic rule is the same: work or be punished. But, as Scy12 said, the current method beats the whip any day of the week.

Something I forgot to mention about feudalism and slavery: the rules of capitalism existed even with both of these. Money and markets were still used in feudal kingdoms, and slaves WERE a market and were usually sold for money. It is true, however, that capitalism has not existed absolutely everywhere.......

Edit: Only 29 posts to, folks! Keep it up, WE CAN DO IT!!!

 

[greenpeace]

YAY.
Took forty pages to get him to say that--but it was worth it.

Oh, I would have said that immediately if that was what youy were getting at. I was simply saying you're "proofs" that my my system can't work were wrong.

Edit: Here's how it would actually go:

BC: Hey Bob, want some money to hull off my garbage
Bob: Sure.

That's how it works all the time--at least, out here in this strangeland I call "the real world". Some few choose not to accept a paycheck, and they're generally, among other things, homeless.

In American society thats completely acceptable and very easy. In this society you have to use the barter system, you have to convince people to go completely against their social manner for very little reward, and you have to risk being "ignored" and unwanted by the community since you're not really acting as a member of the society. In addition if Bob excepts a bunch of green paper in order to do lots of work he isn't really much inclined to be in the society anyway.

How would you stop me? Nobody in your town has any training as a cop.

First why are you even in the system? By entering the "town" and living there you kind of accept the social customs. Either way if you're constantly breaking the way of life, chances are you'll be dealt with in the easiest way possible: words. In other words, the easiest thing to do is to simply ask you and explain to you why you need to stop. If you continue the action the next easiest thing to do is treat you as if you were in a different community (which you really would be).

Re-edit: Something I forgot--alternatively, suppose I bribed (or threatened!) everybody in town to get them to leave me alone? The reason I bring this up is that this happens all the time, with this specific industry. The mafia seems to take a special interest in controlling the garbage collection industry......not only in the United States, but in Naples as well! Surprised? That might be one of the reasons Naples has a problem, by the way. That article I linked did say something about criminal elements.

If you're doing that he probably would be seen as a criminal and dealt with accordingly (though remember the system is rigged such that the justice system would be much more logical).

Capitalism is the default.

Pain is the default (without any work you'll starve, dehydrate, etc.), but we seem to go to great lengths to prevent it. Even if incentives are default, it doesn't mean its wanted or mandatory.

The psychological pressure put on people related to success and consumerism of today's age in addition with a system where people can actually enjoy the reward of working efficiently beats the Whip any day of the week.

But not having pressure and the threat of starvation and all these forces compelling you to labor away a third to a half of you're average day (in a nice job!) is much better. I mean if all you wanted is to have food, than you all you would have to do is go to a permaculture farm and eat your surroundings, whereas for example, a minimum wage worker has to labor away hours a day to get food (probably after having spent tens of thousand of hours working away at school too!).

no it isnt. there has been slavery, Feudalism etc... capitalism is not a default, capitalism didnt exist for the majority of humanities histiory.

If you seriously think capitalism is just a toned down version of slavery and feudalism, you are either far to the left of even me politically, or else know nothing about capitalism.

Well in this context the USSR is capitalistic since we're talking about a system of incentives.

 

[Elrohir]

If you seriously think capitalism is just a toned down version of slavery and feudalism, you are either far to the left of even me politically, or else know nothing about capitalism.

I dunno, I mostly agree, and I'm moderately right wing. I think the difference between slavery and capitalism, though, is that capitalism gives us xboxes.

Seriously, they both involve control through basic human urges. They just delegate control differently, and capitalism does it more efficiently - which leads to an overall better life for everyone. They aren't the same quality of life wise, but they both depend upon fairly similar human behaviors to work. Which, I think, was BasketCase's point. (Correct me if I'm wrong there, man )

 

[BasketCase]

You nailed it square on the head.

 

[BasketCase]

Oh, I would have said that immediately if that was what youy were getting at. I was simply saying you're "proofs" that my my system can't work were wrong.

You can say that all you want, but if you can't provide proof that my proofs are wrong, then your attempt to prove that my proofs are wrong has no proof. And so I see no reason to believe it.

In American society thats completely acceptable and very easy. In this society you have to use the barter system

So what? Money is merely a different form of barter system. How are you going to stop me from bartering with other people to get them to do "unwanted" work?

First why are you even in the system? By entering the "town" and living there you kind of accept the social customs.

Who cares why? It's unimportant. Maybe I'm crazy. Or maybe I think your system is an abomination against God that must be destroyed.

If you leave your citizens to do what want, some of them will accept my bribes--and just like that, your system ceases to exist and is replaced with capitalism.

Either way if you're constantly breaking the way of life, chances are you'll be dealt with in the easiest way possible: words. In other words, the easiest thing to do is to simply ask you and explain to you why you need to stop.

And I refuse to listen. Now what? You're going to have to remove me by force. But what if nobody in your town wants to do it? (And if they don't want to do it, it's not worth doing--your words, not mine) You have to GUARANTEE that somebody in your town will be willing to do it. The only way to do that is with some kind of artificial incentives. And the minute you use those incentives--your system ceases to exist.

But not having pressure and the threat of starvation and all these forces compelling you to labor away a third to a half of you're average day (in a nice job!) is much better.

If I don't want to do it your way, then your way is not worth doing.

And I do not want to do it your way. My way means six hours a day of unwanted labor. Your way means a much larger amount of unwanted labor.

 

[greenpeace]

You can say that all you want, but if you can't provide proof that my proofs are wrong, then your attempt to prove that my proofs are wrong has no proof. And so I see no reason to believe it.

I can reasonabely prove you wrong. For example, if you said from now on everyone is going to be mortal, sure I cam't technically prove you wrong (unless I wait), but if you provide no evidence or use a bunch of irrelevant examples , than I can safely prove you wrong to within reason.

So what? Money is merely a different form of barter system. How are you going to stop me from bartering with other people to get them to do "unwanted" work?

Well, that was more a technicality that was annoying me.

Who cares why? It's unimportant. Maybe I'm crazy. Or maybe I think your system is an abomination against God that must be destroyed.

Well, than you would be treated as such (certainly not a citizen).

If you leave your citizens to do what want, some of them will accept my bribes--and just like that, your system ceases to exist and is replaced with capitalism.

There is nothing preventing them from doing what they want, its just if they don't want the system (ie, they want the brines) than they aren't part of the society.

And I refuse to listen. Now what? You're going to have to remove me by force. But what if nobody in your town wants to do it? (And if they don't want to do it, it's not worth doing--your words, not mine) You have to GUARANTEE that somebody in your town will be willing to do it. The only way to do that is with some kind of artificial incentives. And the minute you use those incentives--your system ceases to exist.

If you are hurting people, than you will be removed if the people want you to be removed enough that they actually do it. Why do I have to guarentee that they will remove you.

If I don't want to do it your way, then your way is not worth doing.

Exactly, you wouldn't do it, any nobody would offer real incentive to stop you from leaving.

And I do not want to do it your way. My way means six hours a day of unwanted labor. Your way means a much larger amount of unwanted labor.

First of all, fine nobodies going to force you into the society.
Second, that is completely untrue. There is drastically less unwanted work because you would only do something if the product from it was worth the work. For example, I would probably set up (or rather help set up) a sustainable permaculture farm, and after that simply eat my surroundings. After that, I would do whatever little things to keep up the land (a little fixing of shelter mainly and help resolve any hurt feelings in community meetings, supporting anything neccessary for a comfortable existance; there is no need for advanced medical care, no need for a huge police force if you support compassion enough, no need for constant huge firefighting force when you have relatively little fire risk, no need for huge water system if you live near a clean river, etc.) and then do whatever the hell I wanted. Spend time with my love, get together with friends and make up something fun. Write a play, whatever, formulate a bunch of postulates and base an entire geometry off fictitous postulates, draw in the sand, if you're still reading this you're stalking me.

 

[RalofTyr]

Originally Posted by Emperor2 View Post
I know I am going to start a ten page debate, a flurry of angry members, a few moderaters constantly watching me, when i don't really feel up to any of it, but I really need to ask:

When Communists look around and see the great that Capitalism has done, how can't they support it? Yes, there is poverty, but that is an unfortunate part of life. With all of the great things we have here and all of the people in America making more money than anyone else in the world and having enough to buy food and luxuries, how can they still not support it.

Thank you for letting me know.
When you acknowledge poverty are you considering material, credit, or emotional wellbeing?

I don't think he's coming back.

When I read his post, the thoughts of "Paranoid Drama King" came to mind.

Capitalism is successful because they had a world of resources to exploit. Having material gains doesn't make one better, just fatter. And if the ancient Spartans would visit America, they'd see a nation more corrupt than that of even Persia.

 

[BasketCase]

but if you provide no evidence or use a bunch of irrelevant examples

Something you'll never catch me doing. All my examples have been perfectly relevant. Your remark above is an attempt to dodge.

There is nothing preventing them from doing what they want, its just if they don't want the system (ie, they want the brines) than they aren't part of the society.

That's why your society does not exist, never has, and never will. Prove me wrong. Provide one counterexample. Just one.

If you are hurting people, than you will be removed if the people want you to be removed enough that they actually do it. Why do I have to guarentee that they will remove you.

Because your own rules say so. Thou shalt do no harm. And offering people paychecks is a form of harm.

There is drastically less unwanted work because you would only do something if the product from it was worth the work.

I don't produce anything. I receive reports of failed computers and dispatch the correctly-trained technician to fix said computer. I don't do anything and I don't repair anything. I don't like this particular job--it's unwanted labor--but it is the job that minimizes the amount of unwanted labor I do.

If I was a farmer I would be working from sunrise to sunset to keep the farm together. By doing tech support instead, I cut my unwanted labor in half.

What I want is a paycheck--that very thing you call harmful. I want the money so I can pay somebody else to farm my food, and so I can have somebody else build me an X-Box, and have somebody else put fillings in my teeth because I can't do that myself and sure as hell wouldn't trust you to do it.

My way produces the minimum possible amount of unwanted labor.


You want me to change my ways? Well then, pray tell: how can you provide me with food and an X-Box and good dental care and police and firemen, and spending money on the side, without me having to farm or get a job at Microsoft or become a dentist AND a cop AND a fireman all at the same time? There's just no way for you to do it.

 

[BasketCase]

After that, I would do whatever little things to keep up the land (a little fixing of shelter mainly and help resolve any hurt feelings in community meetings, supporting anything neccessary for a comfortable existance; there is no need for advanced medical care, no need for a huge police force if you support compassion enough, no need for constant huge firefighting force when you have relatively little fire risk, no need for huge water system if you live near a clean river, etc.) and then do whatever the hell I wanted.

This is yet another hallmark of radicals: an idealized fantasy existence.

Welcome to the real world: you will need advanced medical care when your son falls off the fence and breaks his arm; you need a police force because some of your neighbors will be selfish jerks like me; your fire risk will be the same as ever because getting rid of it is not actually possible; and you won't be able to find a clean river because some jerk like me will be running a ranch upstream of you, and the runoff from the cows will be going.....guess where.

Ring ring! This is reality with your wake-up call.