A question to Communists:

[greenpeace]

Something you'll never catch me doing. All my examples have been perfectly relevant. Your remark above is an attempt to dodge.

Actually, before you took it out of contezt it was not a dodge. I simply stated that all I have to do is spot the logical fallacies in your arguements.

That's why your society does not exist, never has, and never will. Prove me wrong. Provide one counterexample. Just one.

First of all, how about we go back in time the medieval and you provide me one time where you're system worked.
Second, ok.. I formed it for 10 seconds and then left it.

Because your own rules say so. Thou shalt do no harm. And offering people paychecks is a form of harm.

But you're not apart of society if you're offering paychecks.

I don't produce anything. I receive reports of failed computers and dispatch the correctly-trained technician to fix said computer. I don't do anything and I don't repair anything. I don't like this particular job--it's unwanted labor--but it is the job that minimizes the amount of unwanted labor I do.

If I was a farmer I would be working from sunrise to sunset to keep the farm together. By doing tech support instead, I cut my unwanted labor in half.

What I want is a paycheck--that very thing you call harmful. I want the money so I can pay somebody else to farm my food, and so I can have somebody else build me an X-Box, and have somebody else put fillings in my teeth because I can't do that myself and sure as hell wouldn't trust you to do it.

My way produces the minimum possible amount of unwanted labor.

So all that production just went *poof* and came out of thin air? No massive forces of people spending countless hours working away to produce a plastic box with electronics inside?

You want me to change my ways? Well then, pray tell: how can you provide me with food and an X-Box and good dental care and police and firemen, and spending money on the side, without me having to farm or get a job at Microsoft or become a dentist AND a cop AND a fireman all at the same time? There's just no way for you to do it.

I can guarentee that if the product seems worth the effort it you'll get it. I can also guarentee those who work all day to provide enough for food and the very basic to live who would see getting an xbox as useless since electricity would be an extreme luxury, that the labor they would have to give to their bosses would become non-existant and replaced with

Ring ring! This is reality with your wake-up call.

Yes, because for all of human history we have always needed advanced medical care a police force and fire fighters and it would be utterly ridiculous to think that we have only spent about .1%-.01% of our existance as species with them. It is also utterly ridiculous to think that these things could be achieved anyway, if they were wanted enough.
rolleyes
edit: ooh, only 19 more posts.

 

[Mr_Fusty]

Nephrite, I'm still waiting. I'm gonna die of old age here......

I swore that I'd never do this, but here goes.

OK, Basketcase. I suspect that the primary yarkstick you measure capitalism with is the standard of living that it can offer you. Fine. Be honest about it. Although I've not read with bated breath this whole thread (i'd run out of air), I bet you mentioned that it is better to be poor-ish in the USA or Western Europe, rather than 'confortable' in Kenya or India. True. However, if the whole world was to enjoy a similar standard of living comparable to the US/W. Europe/Japan we would be utterly screwed ecologicaly within a decade, and that's not mentioning the fact there is not enough resorces or food or fresh water to go around in those amounts. These food shortages we all know about - that's mainly due to the fact that booming nations like China and India are starting to demand food levels that we've been pigging out on for at least a century.

Economics plainly states that when prices go up, supply will soon also rise - tempted by the increased profits the product has. However, there is not much spare capacity on Earth for agriculture - with the exception with the rainforests (worse global warming) or even more intensive agricultural production (more fertilizer) which is bad because artificial fertilizer is made in factories which use much oil and chemicals (ie more global warming) Farm the seas? Forget it. We've used the oceans for so long as our toilet - I'm suprised anything still can live in it. Most of the commercial stocks of fish are in poor state as it is. I'm no expert, but there seems to be only a few long term options.....

1/ Lessen the farm:mouth ratio. ie Genocide/mass starvation.
2/ Be less picky on what we eat. Rat burger, anyone?
3/ Soylant Green. (Can be linked to 1/ for optimum effect)
4/ The agriculture-rich nations at gunpoint keep the starving millions away(agrica-fascism?)
5/ Proper management of the Earth's argiculture, trying to balence sustainability with fairness. Try to make sure no person goes to sleep on an empty stomach.

I'm suspecting that you're thinking - no!, technology will save us! GM crops will ride in and save the day!. I'm more pessimistic. The Earth has only managed to keep our food supply growing because so much of the Earth was still farmed with techniques from the Iron Age. It's amazing what a combination of fertilizers, weedkillers, tractors, proper irrigation and selective breeding can do for agricultural production. Most of this slack is now gone. If you desire to see what intensive farming can do to ecology, go to the Aral Sea (or what was the Aral Sea). Just so you can have a capitalist equivilent - go to the dust bowl of the USA. The 30's catastrophy was caused by over-farming too.

So. I challenge you. Find a capitalist solution to this scenario which does not involve any of the options I have listed. No sophistry, 'magic bullet' scentific breakthroughs or changing the topic on this one.

One last thing. What you are discussing is called division of labour. Every person specialises in a particular skill so everybody benifits more than if they did everything themselves. We Marxists favour this too. It's a hell of a lot more efficiant. It also means we can plan for a society that involves modern dentistry. From the reading into the last post, it seems that Greenpeace is much more of the Anarchist / Anarchist Communism than Marxist Communism, which I am a student of. We see the same problems, but propose different solutions.

 

[gangleri2001]

Just 18 more posts and this thread will finally be closed!!!!

 

[jessiecat]

17 and counting....

 

[holy king]

what's the point, a new one will be opened anyway...

 

[BasketCase]

I simply stated that all I have to do is spot the logical fallacies in your arguements.

There are none.

Second, ok.. I formed it for 10 seconds and then left it.

Prove to me that you created your magic society.

I think you're lying.

But you're not apart of <Greenpeacocracy> if you're offering paychecks.

I am if I'm offering paychecks to people in your society and stealing them into mine.

Yes, because for all of human history we have always needed advanced medical care a police force and fire fighters

Yes, we did. We just couldn't have them until fairly recently.

Without them, our lives were all shorter, crime was more frequent, and our houses burned down more often.

Your idealized fantasy world only exists as long as nothing goes wrong, and--this is something that is already fact and inherently immune to your accusations of "fallacies"--in the real world, things will go wrong ALL THE TIME.


Fifteen to go!! WE CAN DO IT!!!!

 

[greenpeace]

it seems that Greenpeace is much more of the Anarchist / Anarchist Communism than Marxist Communism, which I am a student of. We see the same problems, but propose different solutions.

Yeah, I would agree that is definently the closes society to mine. Since I really ust see my soicety as a base for peace to be achieved. By peace I mean a state in which everyone (well at leastat a young age onward) has complete compassion where compassion is defined as considering harm done to others to be of equal or greater value than pain caused to oneself.

Forgive me, but if I may I'd like to say the problem of American Capitalism in my personal life.

As a rather "privileged" middle class person, I fortunently had a very nice early childhood (I now realize, at the expense of alot of suffering people in poverty). However, from early childhood to the end of life things are and will get only worse. You see, once I enter the education system I am exposed to many arbitrary rules, and slowly learn to accept increasing amounts of "forced" labor. In my case, by middle school I was completely absorbed in the idealistic "work hard" capitalist lifestyle in seeing work for future benefit as great. I was the A-=bad B+=failure C= why haven't you shot yourself yet? kind of student. So consequently, I go to the highest academic highschool. At this point I have realized the following. I have to wake up at 6-7 am to go to school for 7 hours with a twenty minute break. I have to concentrate the entire time, so I litterally am incapable of speaking normally by the end of the school day. It takes me hours to do homework because I still can't concentrate till after dinner. Throughout the day I have to suffer physical, emotional, and intellectual pain. Physical from sleep deprevation, lack of sun/movement/clean air, and in general being exposed to non-natural conditions constantly. Intellectual because I have to absorb information at rates unprecedented in all of pre-historic (the time in which we really evolved) human history, about things I often have little interest for. And emotional because I live in constant pressure, fear, subordination, lack of adequate social interaction, repression of emotion, lack of emotional stimulus, and another factor I don't wish to speak of. In the end I'm left absolutely exhausted in all sorts of ways. All of this is so that I can achieve the golden dream of getting a job. However, the only difference about a job is that I get less vacation, and if I fail at my job I and the ones I love and hold dearest, will starve under a bridge. I will continue this way until I'm so severely crippled that I can't produce anything. And I'm priviledged! It is amazing people tolerate being converted into production and being warn out till death in so great a majority.
In addition, I have absolutely no political power over myself until I turn 18. When I turn 18 I still have no real political power All I have is the ability to have 1/100 million of a say about which on out of two idiots will have supreme executive power over me for the next 4 years. I also have a ~1/10 million say in which person will have the least inane 1/100th of say in, assuming that executive and a non-democratically appointed judicial branch agree, in what I can do without being thrown into a cement box, and what cause all those hours of my life drained away to work go toward via taxes, even if I despise the cause. Sure glad I'm free!

BTW, here is the "solution":
Society should be decentralized (to the point where a community is completely self-goverened). The decentralized government must be made of all people able to communicate in the community. These people make decisions by the democratic process in which the highest majorty agrees with the decision. The two types of decisions it is allowed to make will be:
1. Whether or not a person (in the community) intentionally has, or is, or eminently will be causing harm and what to do about it. Harm is defined as anything that inhibits a persons ability to do something other than inhibit someone elses ability to do something (the primary way is offering of incentives and other forms of authority). Also harming is inflicitng emotional, physical, mental damage. The established authority is the only entity that can legally offer incentives to counter harm. If there is a situation were it is physically impossible for one to not harm another than the authority must attempt to reduce the harm as much as possible.
Also harm is taking away the produce of another person/groups production without their (un-incentived) consent. Also harm is not allowing natural resources to be shared fairly (the authority decides fairness).
2. Whether to include a new member to a community or not.

This gaurentees that I can't really go through all this stress, because school in the sense of converting human beings to production (non-neccessarily education since learning new things is fine) can't really exist because there is no way to truly force people into working so severely hard. Instead of all the pain caused by working away a third to a half of my life, I can maintain a permaculture farm (which is very little work due to the nature of permaculture and the fact that almost everyone would be contributing so they don't starve) and do whatever recreational activity I want. I'd suprised if I did more than half an hour of work in an average day!

There are none.

darn.

Prove to me that you created your magic society.

I think you're lying.

All I did was turn off the light and stare off into space for 10 seconds.

I am if I'm offering paychecks to people in your society and stealing them into mine.

If you're "stealing them into mine" how are they not apart of your society?

Yes, we did. We just couldn't have them until fairly recently.

Without them, our lives were all shorter, crime was more frequent, and our houses burned down more often.

Honestly, even if that was true, if I had to make the choice, I and many others would perfer to die at a sooner date and live longer, than work all my life away until I'm an old cripple incapable of much work.
Your idealized fantasy world only exists as long as nothing goes wrong, and--t

his is something that is already fact and inherently immune to your accusations of "fallacies"--in the real world, things will go wrong ALL THE TIME.

Wait, so the past exists, but it couldn't exist?

 

[BasketCase]

All I did was turn off the light and stare off into space for 10 seconds.

I think you're staring off into space a LOT more often than that.

That's not Greenpeacocracy. That's "slacking off", something I do a little of myself.

You see, while you were staring off into space, you were still under the protection of local police and fire departments; still bound to obey local, state and federal laws (you merely didn't get caught breaking any); still under the protection of the U.S. military (I'm assuming you live in the U.S.); and etc etc etc. Greenpeacocracy forbids most of the U.S. government apparatus because that apparatus is considered harmful.

If you're "stealing them into mine" how are they not apart of your society?

The point is that they are no longer part of yours. It's impossible to prevent people from desiring paychecks, bribes, and other free goodies. Reason number 473 why your system is impossible.

Capitalism, on the other hand, survives in spite of the many speed bumps people run afoul of.


Thirteen posts to go!!!

 

[greenpeace]

I think you're staring off into space a LOT more often than that.

That's not Greenpeacocracy. That's "slacking off", something I do a little of myself.

You see, while you were staring off into space, you were still under the protection of local police and fire departments; still bound to obey local, state and federal laws (you merely didn't get caught breaking any); still under the protection of the U.S. military (I'm assuming you live in the U.S.); and etc etc etc. Greenpeacocracy forbids most of the U.S. government apparatus because that apparatus is considered harmful.

You could only say that if firefigthers came in and rescued me from a fire.

(I'm assuming you live in the U.S.)

Actually I live in San Francisco (actually, truth be told, its more conservative than people often think).

The point is that they are no longer part of yours. It's impossible to prevent people from desiring paychecks, bribes, and other free goodies. Reason number 473 why your system is impossible.

I don't want any of that, am I the chosen one?

Capitalism, on the other hand, survives in spite of the many speed bumps people run afoul of.

Unfortunently, its not desirable for many.

 

[BasketCase]

You could only say that if firefigthers came in and rescued me from a fire.

Actually, I already said it. Prove me wrong. Prove that the firefighters won't come to your house if it catches fire. In fact, go right ahead and set your house on fire, and see what happens.


Your system, on the other hand?

Actually its logically impossible to prove it can work without actually doing it.

By your own words you can't prove that you created your own government for ten seconds. So when you claim you did, I think you're lying.

Unfortunently, its not desirable for many.

I say you're lying about this too.

If you can't prove your method possible without actually doing it, and if it's never been done, then you can't make any claims about your system being the best.

No, my method isn't very desirable. But it's better than all the other alternatives that have actually existed. By your own words, the only way to prove me wrong is to actually create a better system. So, let's see it. Create one and tell me where it is so I can go take a look.

 

[greenpeace]

Actually, I already said it. Prove me wrong. Prove that the firefighters won't come to your house if it catches fire. In fact, go right ahead and set your house on fire, and see what happens.

Doesn't matter, it didn't happen during that time it existed.

Your system, on the other hand?

If we die in a fire than we perfer that over throwing water at the fire. Also, I find your indirect assumption that firefighters are only in it for the money to be wrong.

By your own words you can't prove that you created your own government for ten seconds. So when you claim you did, I think you're lying.

Um, I did it, its really not that hard. You could do it to. Just do what I did.

I say you're lying about this too.

I say thats the greatest counter-arguement I've ever seen! rolleyes

If you can't prove your method possible without actually doing it, and if it's never been done, then you can't make any claims about your system being the best.

So, we can't make any claims about inventions beind remarkable improvements?

No, my method isn't very desirable. But it's better than all the other alternatives that have actually existed. By your own words, the only way to prove me wrong is to actually create a better system. So, let's see it. Create one and tell me where it is so I can go take a look.

I will, all I need is to learn permaculture, gather courage convince others to join, radically alter my lifestyle.

 

[BasketCase]

Um, I did it, its really not that hard. You could do it to. Just do what I did.

Prove that you did it.

Edit: And yes, I tried sitting on my ass and doing nothing for ten seconds. Well, a lot longer than that, actually. A Greenpeacocracy did not appear. It was still American capitalism. So I say you're full of crap.

 

[BasketCase]

If we die in a fire than we perfer that over throwing water at the fire.

Also, I find your indirect assumption that firefighters are only in it for the money to be wrong.[/QUOTE]
By the way, quick tip: NEVER throw water on an electrical fire......and hope those idealistic hippies know that.

That's why we need firefighters. They know how to handle stuff like that. Well-meaning wingnuts, instead, usually end up making things worse.

Also, I find your indirect assumption that firefighters are only in it for the money to be wrong.

That's you seeing meanings that aren't there. Though, firefighters must be in it for the money in addition to their other reasons (if any) because if they don't get any money for firefighting, then they won't be fighting fires--they'll be farming and making their own shoes.

 

[greenpeace]

Edit: And yes, I tried sitting on my ass and doing nothing for ten seconds. Well, a lot longer than that, actually. A Greenpeacocracy did not appear. It was still American capitalism. So I say you're full of crap.

How were the things you did at all American Capitalism and what rule of the society I described did you violate?

By the way, quick tip: NEVER throw water on an electrical fire......and hope those idealistic hippies know that.

That's why we need firefighters. They know how to handle stuff like that. Well-meaning wingnuts, instead, usually end up making things worse.

Alright I'll put it more precisely: "If we die in a fire than we perfer that over learning how to put out and put out a fire." Happy?

That's you seeing meanings that aren't there.

Then why bother making a comparison?

 

[BasketCase]

what rule of the society I described did you violate?

All of them.

Alright I'll put it more precisely: "If we die in a fire than we perfer that over learning how to put out and put out a fire." Happy?

With anything you write? Never. If someone dies in a fire, they have no opinion BECAUSE THEY'RE DEAD.

Smartassery aside: people who get injured in a fire or see a loved one die in a fire, never switch careers to becoming firefighters. They yell at the firemen for "failing to do their jobs" or some such. You see that in the news all the time.

Then why bother making a comparison?

Okay, this was just absolutely meaningless. If you're seeing nonexistent meanings in my words, the problem is on YOUR end, not mine. I make comparisons because they're valid. And because there are other readers besides you in here, who are much more likely to get what I'm driving at.

 

[greenpeace]

All of them.

Describe how it violated one of them.

Smartassery aside: people who get injured in a fire or see a loved one die in a fire, never switch careers to becoming firefighters. They yell at the firemen for "failing to do their jobs" or some such. You see that in the news all the time.

If there is a substantial firefighting force it probably wouldn't make too much of a difference, however if there is no people capable of any firefighting than it gives incentive for people to learn. Either way its their choice to learn it or not.

Okay, this was just absolutely meaningless. If you're seeing nonexistent meanings in my words, the problem is on YOUR end, not mine. I make comparisons because they're valid. And because there are other readers besides you in here, who are much more likely to get what I'm driving at.

Than what were you driving at?

 

[BasketCase]

Describe how it violated one of them.

While I tried to practice your system, I was still receiving a paycheck, still receiving the protection of the police and fire department, and still paying other people to farm my food because I don't know how to farm my own. I refuse to starve to death, and the only other option open to me is to dangle money before other people to make them farm the land. Deal with it.

If there is a substantial firefighting force it probably would make too much of a difference, however if there is no people capable of any firefighting than it gives incentive for people to learn. Either way its their choice to learn it or not.

Exactly. And I'm going to dangle money before their noses to help them decide. You wanna stop me? You're gonna have to shoot me, and I know you don't have the stones to do it.

Than what were you driving at?

That you're either reading my posts incorrectly, or intentionally distorting them.

 

[greenpeace]

While I tried to practice your system, I was still receiving a paycheck, still receiving the protection of the police and fire department, and still paying other people to farm my food because I don't know how to farm my own. I refuse to starve to death, and the only other option open to me is to dangle money before other people to make them farm the land. Deal with it.

But during that time no incentives were made, and you effectively were following the societies rules.

Exactly. And I'm going to dangle money before their noses to help them decide.

What? There already is the incentive of not burning up in flames, no need for money.

You wanna stop me? You're gonna have to shoot me, and I know you don't have the stones to do it.

Why do you keep on assuming I want to force you to things?

That you're either reading my posts incorrectly, or intentionally distorting them.

So when you compared firefightinging forces of my and your societies' wou really wre just tell me I'm illeterate (although, after reading my previous post and its million errors, I'm beginning to think I am! )?

 

[BasketCase]

But during that time no incentives were made

You are completely impossible.

I was right there inside my own head when I made the attempt, for Christ's sake. It is ME telling YOU that you are full of crap. Incentives were in place the entire time I made the attempt.

I was there, you were not. So shut your goddamn mouth about what happened during the attempt.

Edit: Your system, Greenpeace, cannot exist at the same time as the American system. You must eliminate the latter (from your territory, anyway) in order to create the former. Prove that you eliminated American authority, even for ten seconds. You didn't. You merely didn't get caught. If you don't get caught robbing a bank, guess what--you still robbed a bank, you still broke the law, and you WILL get thrown in prison when you get caught.

Prove that you replaced American capitalism with Greenpeacocracy. Your word is not enough. I'll need something concrete.
​

What? There already is the incentive of not burning up in flames, no need for money.

HOW ARE THE FIREMEN SUPPOSED TO GET FOOD??? Jesus Christ.

That's what my paycheck goes to them for. So they can put out fires instead of having to grow tomatoes in their back yards and make their own shoes.

I keep telling you, incentives are unavoidable. And you just keep refusing to listen. It doesn't matter if I offer them money or if I go "thank you for being on duty all the time, here's some food and a pair of shoes". If I do it your way and just hand them some food and shoes now and then, that is still a paycheck. If they quit being firemen, I stop giving them stuff and give it to somebody else who will put out fires. You cannot get away from this.

o when you compared firefightinging forces of my and your societies' wou really wre just tell me I'm illeterate (although, after reading my previous post and its million errors, I'm beginning to think I am!

I agree entirely.

 

[greenpeace]

THIS IS THE 1000TH POST IN THE THREAD!!!!!
1000th post band!

=============
​

You are completely impossible.

I was right there inside my own head when I made the attempt, for Christ's sake. It is ME telling YOU that you are full of crap. Incentives were in place the entire time I made the attempt.

I was there, you were not. So shut your goddamn mouth about what happened during the attempt.

But you didn't mention any incentives that you offered during the time of the experiment.

[Edit: Your system, Greenpeace, cannot exist at the same time as the American system. You must eliminate the latter (from your territory, anyway) in order to create the former. Prove that you eliminated American authority, even for ten seconds. You didn't. You merely didn't get caught. If you don't get caught robbing a bank, guess what--you still robbed a bank, you still broke the law, and you WILL get thrown in prison when you get caught.

It exists until everyone who wants it is prevented physically from aprt in it (and even then all the actions the people take without being forced can still easily follow the society rules).

Prove that you replaced American capitalism with Greenpeacocracy. Your word is not enough. I'll need something concrete.

Illegal immigration (in terms of existing illegally under America without being really violent towards law enforcement like gangs for example).

HOW ARE THE FIREMEN SUPPOSED TO GET FOOD??? Jesus Christ.

If they are on a permaculture farm than they would pick it from their surroundings. Otherwise they would farm it. Or hunt and gather it. However they wish, those actions aren't really mutually exclusive. John Lennon!

That's what my paycheck goes to them for. So they can put out fires instead of having to grow tomatoes in their back yards and make their own shoes.
I keep telling you, incentives are unavoidable. And you just keep refusing to listen. It doesn't matter if I offer them money or if I go "thank you for being on duty all the time, here's some food and a pair of shoes". If I do it your way and just hand them some food and shoes now and then, that is still a paycheck. If they quit being firemen, I stop giving them stuff and give it to somebody else who will put out fires. You cannot get away from this.

And if you don't (again not because you're being forced but because you'll volunteerly accepted) what is preventing people from how to effectively deal with fire and reduce fire hazards with the incentive of safety?

I agree entirely.

Sorry but I usually have a bunch of work to do so I'm constantly tired/busy when I post.

BTW, I said that we would start "Question to Communists II: The emperor2 strikes back" when we reached ~1000 posts (depending if you are talking about replies or all posts), so unless you in some way object I think I'll start a new thread if you respond to this post and in the new thread the response to your post will be there (unless you object to that).