A Shadow of Emperor Quill

[pigswill]

Well I've been lurking and posting in CFC for a while now but still haven't won on Emperor (I'm cautiously optimistic about my game in MLG6 but that's only up to 1400ad so far).

So I saw Quill18's Emperor game and started to follow it (up to about 1800bc). Then I thought that I'd play a (slightly spoiled ) shadow and stopped following Quill's thread at that point. Because I'm really not confident on emperor I thought I'd post my game periodically to get some advice on direction and strategy (and no doubt a bit of well deserved criticism).

I've got up to 485bc (save at the end of the post).

I settled Amsterdam on the starting tile, lots of food, hills for mining and a few forests for chopping is really pretty solid. Grew the city and started a settler when it reached its happy cap. Utrecht got settled in 2200bc a few tiles east for cows, fish and gold, there's a bit of desert but that's not such a big deal in the long term. I started on pyramids as soon as I finished the settler and got them finished in 900bc then switched to rep mainly for the happy bonus. Got my third city The Hague on the pig/gem spot in 520bc. I went there for the extra health and happy resources coz you can never have enough health or happiness.

Techwise I went mining, BW, hunting, archery, masonry, wheel, AH, IW, writing, myst, pottery and alphabet. Traded writing for sailing, no other worthwhile trades atm.

Here's my 'empire' so far:

I've got a couple of sites marked out for the next couple of cities. Now I've reached a bit of a crossroads. I've got GE points accumulating slowly which should pop a GE in about 100ad (unless I build a library and aim for a GS instead though I'm not too keen on that idea).

I could follow an optics beeline, avoiding meditation, CS and Theo and picking up maths should sort that one. I could even burn the GE on machinery to speed that up.

Alternatively I could chase literature and burn GE on Glib, possibly on this otherwise unremarkable island:

It may not look much but with caste system two fish can support a bunch of specialists which would rake in a few GS with the help of the Glib.

Or I could go for a straight liberalism beeline.

Or I could do something else (ideas welcome).

In terms of the other AI I'm on reasonable terms so far with them (cautious to pleased). Monte and Liz are enemies already, Chuck and Khan are also enemies. Chuck and Liz are kind of pals, Monte and Khan are also pals. There's another two AIs around presumably on the smaller continent. One of them nabbed hinduism early. Monte founded buddyism and converted Khan, Chuck's got judaism, Liz is so far unconverted but is researching CoL. Diplomatically its beginning to shape up to a snakepit.

As well as the research path I also need to consider growth strategy coz I won't win with four or five cities. The reason I was thinking of astronomy beeline is to nab various islands and ignore the mainlands as much as possible. Certainly Bill's UU and UB would support this strategy. The idea of slogging it out on the continent doesn't really appeal. I'm thinking that I could keep a stack of units on the goldhill east of Utrecht which covers the only land approach. Would need a navy as well obviously.

Any thoughts or comments welcome.

Save (Hof 3.13 v1 mod):

 

[reverend oats]

Just curious, why didn't you settle The Hague 1 south in order to get the gold sooner? It seems that early commerce and happy would make up for the overlap.

 

[colcolstyles]

Just curious, why didn't you settle The Hague 1 south in order to get the gold sooner? It seems that early commerce and happy would make up for the overlap.

I agree. You can still pick up the gems and the pigs if you had placed The Hague one south. If it was because you wanted to settle on a hill, you could have gone 1 south-east and you could still pick up all three resources.

 

[pigswill]

I settled The Hague where it is because I'm intending to build another city claiming the gold and the sheep and its current location reduces overlap. In the longer term Bill can build dikes and with financial this means that water tiles are actually useful so I don't mind the fact that these two cities will end up with less land and more water as a result. I've got one source of gold already so I wanted the gem city established first.

 

[BurN]

I disagree on placing the hague there as well. The earlier you could work that gold, the better.

Nice job on getting mids btw.

Personally in this position, I would try to settle a city or two eastwards now. Getting build in is not good imho. Shoot for the GL and afterwards head for col/maths/construction and war against the english. You should be able to get maths in trade then you could research col or construction yourself.
Would be nice to bring 1 or 2 other ai's to war with the english so you can enjoy the diplo bonus and they will waste each others sod's.

Monty+kublai should be good allies. They can help you defeat the english and maybe later help you kill off charle as well.

After you expanded your empire trough the english, you can still head for the sea/islands.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I'm no Emperor player, but I'll jump on the gold band-wagon and question it's wisdom. Early gold mines are super powerful, plus you're financial!

That's all I have to say, this is outta my league, since I'm just starting to consider Monarch

 

[pigswill]

At the end of the last round I'd just finished alphabet and was deciding which way to go research wise. I wasn't keen on expanding into the mainland despite some encouragement to do so because I though that I didn't need the land and I'd get caught up in a whole bunch of wars, border disputes and general hassle.

So I decided that I would more or less stay put and go for some wonders while exploring a bit more. I'd need to build some military to avoid being a complete pushover.

Techwise I went for MC for Colossus, Aethetics and Lit for Glib, construction for cats and currency to bolster the economy. It worked out pretty much ok, got MC first, built a forge in Amsterdam which sped up the GE and finished Colossus in 220ad. I founded Rotterdam on a speck of land (with 3 seafood resources) in 145ad. I then had to wait for it to grow to the point I could whip a library and finally the GE built Glib in Rotterdam in 445ad.

I also did a whole bunch of tech trading and picked up poly, PH, mono, meditation, maths, monarchy and calendar. I'm now a couple of turns from CoL; Confucianism is already gone but CoL opens up the philosophy lightbulb and civil service so its worth getting anyway. Courthouses might come in useful as well. I eventually built Niejmegen in 385ad for rice and second gold. Built a few more units which joined my defensive stack near Utrecht.

That was it, apart from the international scene which is indeed a total snake pit. First of all Chuck demanded MC for free just after I'd researched it. He'd just built Glight so I refused as I didn't want him adding Colossus to his collection. A bit later on he demanded I convert to Buddhism, which I briefly considered before refusing again. Then in 25ad Monte and Khan dowed Liz, Liz asked me to dow Monte which I refused. Then Sury dowed Liz in 55ad, he asked me to join in and again I refused. Khan captured Oxford from Liz then accepted peace in 335ad. A few turns later in 370ad Chuck declared on Liz!
Then Monte demanded aesthetics for free. I was close to building Glib so I agreed, then for good measure I gave aesthetics to Liz, Khan and Chuck as a free gift. Despite all this I've managed a degree of neutrality with my fellow leaders:

Here's the world as I know it:

I think there's still another civilisation waiting to be discovered. There's also a fair bit of discovering yet to be done.

Here's the tech situation:

Khan's got a monopoly on theology, Chuck's got feudalism, Liz has CoL.

And here's the demographics:

I've still only got five cities so I guess I need to think about expanding in the not too distant future. Apart from that I could get most of lib slingshot from GS lightbulbs. Maybe pick up machinery, compass and optics and explore more. And of course, don't forget to add to my army.

 

[futurehermit]

I like the fact that you're settling the precious metals first. I'm interested to see how that changes things. I agree with the majority that I would've settled the gold-gems city as a gold-gems city (1S) instead of waiting. Getting both gold pits from the two cities online asap I have a hunch would be the strongest opening (stronger perhaps than getting the pyramids) while shooting for construction to attack the English. However, as I said, I'm interested to see how this game plays out, especially relative to the other game, which is also interesting.

 

[pigswill]

Played a few more turns, chasing liberalism while trying to expand a bit and avoid invasion.

Elizabeth remains everone's favourite victim and I've been left alone so far. Added a few cats to my protective stack, upgraded some units (archers to LB/XB, spear to pike). Still well behind on military power though.

Techwise I've picked up CoL, CS (switched to buro), compass, drama (popped from a hut!), optics, paper, education (GS boosted), philosophy, theology (trade), music (trade), engineering (trade), liberalism (1200), nationalism (free tech). I've been selling lots of techs fairly cheap coz it keeps people happy, cuts down on unilateral demands and keeps the economy going. Monte did demand 430g at one point and I caved in, its a lot cheaper than most techs at this point so its not a big deal.

Monte is slowly turning into the dominant civ. Sury seems to be heading towards cultural. Chuck seems a bit hemmed in. Kublai is fairly middle of the road but has build AP. Once I'd got optics I went exploring and met the germans who are still pretty isolated and fairly backwards. I also picked up circumnav in 1070 which is a nice bonus.

I founded three more island cities and there's still land to exploit but I'd really need astronomy which I'm trying to delay because Colossus is a substantial boost to my economy (changes ocean tiles from 1C to 3C with financial).

Picked up only 2 great people, a GE in 850 which I shelved to rush Taj (this turn) and a GS that helped bulb education.

I've still got a long way to go to win this. In case it's not obvious my strategy from early on has been to avoid continental entanglements while beelining for dikes (probably the most overpowered UB in BtS) and use the hammer boost to catch up, probably involving at least some warfare.

 

[quill18]

Hiya pigswill!

In hindsight settling Utrecht where you did, and ASAP, is definitely stronger than the start I attempted. I think that, even spoiler-free, that's what I would do if I were to restart today.

As other lurkers have noted, I would have settled your second city 1S. I don't know if it's better or not (the gods know I mucked up my own game), but that's what I would have done.

Pacifistic expansion to the islands really sounds like a strong play to me, and that's what I was hoping to pull off before everything went pear-shaped for me. Your early, commerce-rich settlements and avoidance of wars should allow you to pull that off much more effectively than I could hope to do.

I really thing that keeping the Financial trait in mind and doing aggressive coastal settling like you've done is the right path with Dutch, even ignoring your UB (and is DEADLY with it). Nabbing the Colossus is also key, I'd say. I was scared off from pursuing it because of the difficultly level and comments from early repliers, but I think this was a mistake.

You have your islands now, you have your Colossus now. I'm sure that as long as you keep a good defensive force (mostly on the continent), you can get away with just teching/trading like crazy until it's time to bust out in the Steam Power/Steel/Rifling age.

I definitely think that this is how the game should have been played on this map/leader.

 

[pigswill]

Played a few more turns, nothing major enough for an update. Liz has capitulated to Monte making me 7-stone-weakling-#1 so that could get interesting.
Re gold with third city. I'm happy enough with my decision. The map was fine for commerce but low on hammers, I could run 2 grassland hills with the food it would take for the goldmine and I knew I would get the gold with rice city to run the tile while still growing.

 

[Gooblah]

Haha. This is insane; everyone hates Lizzy! And Monty's at -21 w/o Nukes!!

Okay, back on topic. I see tons of unoccupied land. Take it. Its south of Suryavarman, and he has Astronomy, so he could rush it. Just build tons of Galleons with troops and Settlers. Raze the barb cities, build a Dike in a high-production city, then build either Versailles or Forbidden Palace (helps a ton in costs) or go with State Property. It'll give you a land advantage, which , after the initial deficit, will net more commerce and production, and lead to more troops.

So, to summarize:
1) Build troops and Settlers
2) Load units onto Galleons
3) Capture and settle western barbarian landmass
4) Build Dikes and Forbidden Palace
5) Exercise new land to raze Suryavarman's culture cities and/or take out Frederick

 

[Calouste]

Haha. This is insane; everyone hates Lizzy! And Monty's at -21 w/o Nukes!!

Okay, back on topic. I see tons of unoccupied land. Take it. Its south of Suryavarman, and he has Astronomy, so he could rush it. Just build tons of Galleons with troops and Settlers. Raze the barb cities, build a Dike in a high-production city, then build either Versailles or Forbidden Palace (helps a ton in costs) or go with State Property. It'll give you a land advantage, which , after the initial deficit, will net more commerce and production, and lead to more troops.

So, to summarize:
1) Build troops and Settlers
2) Load units onto Galleons
3) Capture and settle western barbarian landmass
4) Build Dikes and Forbidden Palace
5) Exercise new land to raze Suryavarman's culture cities and/or take out Frederick

Don't build dikes.

When you get to Steam Power, switch the production for all your big cities to Dike. Then the next turn, start a Golden Age using GPs, and switch to Slavery and Organized Religion. Whip all the dikes for only 4 pop if you have your both state religion and a forge in a city. Enjoy another 7 turns of all your active squares returning 2F/2H/4C minimum. And if you have a decent food surplus, your cities will be back to were they were before the GA, plus a dike plus roughly a bank or university.

 

[pigswill]

Played on a bit further (up to 1420 in fact).

Life remains fairly interesting despite the fact that I haven't fought a single war (yet).

At the beginning of the round in 1210 I'd just rushed Taj with a GE I'd left around for that purpose giving me 10 rounds of golden age (my first of the game). I swopped to free religion, I'm also runing rep, bureaucracy and slavery (tho did swop to caste for a few turns during GA to speed up a GS).

Techwise I picked up gunpowder (1260), guilds (1280), PP (trade), banking (1300), RP (1355). Decided to go for rifling before chem/steam, which I picked up in 1415.

The GS I picked up was used for an academy in Amsterdam. I'm 16 turns or so from my next GP which I'll save for a Goldenage.

Haven't established any new cities this round.

Elizabeth capitulated to Monte in 1265 after he'd captured another of her cities. Liz is no longer the AI's favourite target. Monte is 'annoyed' with me and 'slightly' ahead on power:

So I'm a bit concerned about the possibility of a massive 30-40 unit stack suddenly turning up on my doorstep. That's why I went for rifling and spent the last of my loot on upgrading half a dozen units to rifles in my defensive stack.

Techwise its not a total trainwreck:

Astronomy is fairly widespread now. Chuck beat me to economics . No-one has gunpowder. Monte did however warn me: 'beware my war elephant', I'm not sure if he was speaking literally or figuratively!

 

[pigswill]

@ Gooblah. I'm aware of all the unoccupied land.Couple of concerns I have about claiming it. First I'd need astronomy and even though it would open up Bill's UU which could be handy I'd lose the extra commerce from Colossus. Secondly Monte has a significant power advantage and I suspect that if I switched my attention to the islands he'd be declaring pretty soon and my military resources would be in the wrong place. Not good.
I do however have a plan: get steam power, build/ rush dikes and then head towards steel. Declare on Monte and await a major invasion force. defeat it or die trying. (Monte has statue of zeus so I'm not keen on taking war to him initially at least). Then I can think about either occupying islands or invading the continent.

@Calouste I'm actually thinking of running a golden age once I've got to steam power. However I'm thinking of switching to US from pyramids, putting cash slider to 100% and buying dikes instead of whipping them.

 

[quill18]

Monte is 'annoyed' with me and 'slightly' ahead on power

*cough* Wow, that's quite the graph!

It's interesting how differently things have gone in your game. In mine, Liz capitulated to the HRE, and Monty has been getting !

 

[pigswill]

The round started off fairly quietly. Teched towards chemistry, build a few more rifles and a few boats but mainly focussing on infrastructure.

The only slightly interesting event was Sury creating a colony in the arctic wastes and putting Isabella in charge of it.

The hammer fell in 1465:

Another screenshot that didn't come out properly: Monte's stack consisted of 42 units (12 knights, 6 ele, 3HA, 3 mace, 4 pike, a Jaguar , 2 LB, 2XB, 2 cats and 7 trebs (I counted)).

Suicided barrage promoted cats to weaken the stack; 11 attacked, only 1 withdrew; but the stack was weakened and the rifles took out half a dozen knights.

Time for some reinforcements:

I wanted some allies for a couple of reasons. First they would help confuse Monte and make it more difficult to focus on me. Secondly if they were busy fighting Monte then they couldn't turn round and join a dogpile on me. Mutual military struggle is of course always nice to have as a diplo bonus.

Next round Monte's stack stood there licking their wounds and lost another half dozen units to rifles. A Great General appeared in Amsterdam.

The round after that the Great General became a Great Medic, Monte's stack were still licking their wounds but only lost 4 units while my units were healing up.

Monte had obviously had enough of his army licking their wounds and costing him money and ordered them to attack Anvil Mountain. After all there were still a couple of dozen units in the stack.

And then there were none. The anvil broke the hammer . I lost a rifle but its an acceptable casualty ratio. I also gained another GG who volunteered to instruct the recruits in Amsterdam.

After chemistry I originally thought of going for steel but then changed my mind. The war would be settled long before cannon appeared and I'm still looking to build them dikes so I switched to steam without putting any beakers into steel.

Monte's power is now slightly less daunting.

 

[pigswill]

It started off quietly enough. No new stacks from Monte though given that he, Chuck and Khan all picked up a GG I guess there was some fighting going on. Despite being in a three way war and not having gunpowder Monte went for the physics beeline .

I sent half a dozen rifles wandering into Aztec country, then decided that I should try to get something useful from the war and sent them down to England instead, built a couple of trebs to keep them company.

In 1535 I finally got steam power, immediately started a golden age, switched civics to US, buro, caste, FM and FR and switched production everywhere to dikes. Spent the next few rounds cash-rushing dikes. Hammers went from 120/turn in 1535 to 180/turn in 1585 so it was worth doing I think. Amsterdam has become my unit pump (MI, HE, bureaucracy bonus) and will become my Ironworks in due course.

Warfare went a bit silly. Fred declared on Khan in 1535 and pinched a city in the first turn. Khan made peace with Monte the following turn but then Sury declared on Monte so everyone is at war with someone. I've captured Hastings from Liz, heading for Liverpool. Chuck has captured London, Liz is now down to 60% of original land so once the captured cities are out of revolt she will very likely break free from Monte.

I'm currently researching steel, still haven't picked up astronomy so I've got Colossus but a primitive navy. Democracy is around so I've got citizens whining about emancipation. Still got a monopoly on RP but that probably wont last too long.

Not sure of where to go next. Hopefully pick up 1 or 2 English cities. Maybe pick on Monte. Maybe go naval but the islands are slowly being claimed. Need to get some oil, only unclaimed source is arctic without a single food resource around.

 

[cabert]

What victory condition would you go for?
I can see space as quite easy from where you are.
For this, you need to start focusing on science, though.

If it was me, I'd try to get liz to capitulate, then go after monte until he capitulates to anyone (you? I don't think so, but it would be good), just to be able to neglect diplomacy with him.

 

[pigswill]

I'd prefer Liz to be annihilated than vassalised, it gets rid of all her cultural residue. With one or two cities she certainly won't contribute much to anyone's civilisation.

I think I need to expand regardless of which victory I pursue, because a dozen cities just aint productive enough to keep up.

One option would be to go for a major war: switch to nationalism, draft rifles, build/whip cannon, get a bit of a navy established for flank protection. Probably go for Chuck first, then finish off Monte.

Or I could probably seriously dent Monte without drafting, he's behind on tech and stacks of knights and maces just don't fare well against cannon and rifles. I'd end up with less land but it would cause much less disruption.