A slightly different religion topic

[Ayatollah So]

I often agree with Warpus (that whole free will thread being the exception that proves the rule ). But I don't see Hurtado's behavior at his hanging as glory-seeking. My first instinct is to assume that by the cultural standards of that place and time, the executioners would feel serious guilt about their act and that Hurtado's behavior was meant to lessen that. And probably succeeded.

Just guessing here. Maybe I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy. Although really, I'm more of a "Hey, I ordered a cheeseburger!" kind of guy.

 

[silver 2039]

A religous fanatic who died. One less religous fantic in the world. Good.

 

[warpus]

I simply refuse to respect anyone who dies willingly with the express purpose of becoming a martyr.

To me that does not say "bravery", it says "insanity".

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I simply refuse to respect anyone who dies willingly with the express purpose of becoming a martyr.

To me that does not say "bravery", it says "insanity".

If you try and think of something that you believe in strongly enough to die for, it might be easier to understand.

 

[warpus]

If you try and think of something that you believe in strongly enough to die for, it might be easier to understand.

While there might be causes I'd be willing to die for (if I really had to), I would never make the explicit purpose of my death martyrdom.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Do you understand what matryrdom means? The purpose of death isn't martyrdom, that almost doesn't make sense just grammatically speaking. Martyrdom is a type of death. Death for something. Either you believe that dying for something is admirable or you don't. You are making the issue oddly convoluted.

 

[warpus]

Do you understand what matryrdom means? The purpose of death isn't martyrdom, that almost doesn't make sense just grammatically speaking. Martyrdom is a type of death. Death for something. Either you believe that dying for something is admirable or you don't. You are making the issue oddly convoluted.

In different belief systems, the criteria for being considered a martyr is different. In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death, is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions.

Shrug.. We're getting sidetracked here.. But I think this guy wanted to be a martyr and he was willing to put his life on the line to become one.. and IMO anyone who feels this way should be considered dangerous.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Warpus, your main problem seems to be with the word 'martyr'. Why?

 

[warpus]

Warpus, your main problem seems to be with the word 'martyr'. Why?

Not only that, my problem is someone who wants to become one..

Dont' trust someone who doesn't value his/her life enough to want to stay here; even worse if he/she thinks there is something better awaiting him/her in the afterlife.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Shrug.. We're getting sidetracked here.. But I think this guy wanted to be a martyr and he was willing to put his life on the line to become one.. and IMO anyone who feels this way should be considered dangerous.

A MARTYR IS SOMEONE WHO DIES FOR SOMETHING.

SO YES YOU COULD SAY HE WAS WILLING TO DIE TO BECOME ONE UNLIKE ALL THOSE LIVING MARTYRS.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Not only that, my problem is someone who wants to become one..

Dont' trust someone who doesn't value his/her life enough to want to stay here; even worse if he/she thinks there is something better awaiting him/her in the afterlife.

When they come for you, to kill you for the things you hold most dearly, whatever those things are, then you should trust yourself, and everyone else can go to hell if they dont trust you.

My two martyrdoms

 

[Azash]

Ha was a narcissist, thinking he would become widely loved or something. Alternatively, he lacked any sense of survival. Either way, I don't see what would be holy about this. He was going to die anyway, what would he lose by playing the martyr at the end?

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

He could have easily stopped being a priest, stopped resisting the government, and could have not held the Mass which lead to his arrest. He was not on some auto-track to death just by existing.

 

[Azash]

I was speaking more specifically of being arrested. And perhaps he was narcissist enough to value his image more than his safety.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

He was an egoist - attempting to immortalize his name via martyrdom.

Yeah...except that there have been thousands of Christian martyrs throughout history and he couldn't have possibly believed he'd stand out among them.

He could have easily stopped being a priest, stopped resisting the government, and could have not held the Mass which lead to his arrest. He was not on some auto-track to death just by existing.

So if you lived somewhere the Ismalofascists took over, you'd just go along with their way of doing things? After all, you could easily just go along with the new government. BTW, the priesthood is a life commitment. You don't just quit.

That's what makes him a legitimate martyr. He had the choice between renouncing his faith and living, or affirming it and dying, and he chose the latter. He did not seek out that situation--a tyrannical government placed him in it.

Someone who decides to strap on explosives and blow up innocent people is not a martyr. Someone who stands by their beliefs in the face of death is.

 

[warpus]

And someone who walks right into the hands of death is just an idiot.

 

[Red Door]

I think it shows that the Catholic Church is granting sainthood to too many people.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

So if you lived somewhere the Ismalofascists took over, you'd just go along with their way of doing things? After all, you could easily just go along with the new government. BTW, the priesthood is a life commitment. You don't just quit.

That's what makes him a legitimate martyr. He had the choice between renouncing his faith and living, or affirming it and dying, and he chose the latter. He did not seek out that situation--a tyrannical government placed him in it.

Someone who decides to strap on explosives and blow up innocent people is not a martyr. Someone who stands by their beliefs in the face of death is.

What? Where did I give the impression that I thought he should have quit the priesthood or that he deserved to be killed? I was refuting the fact that he had no part in his own death, he resisted a government which I already mentioned was tyrannical and was made a martyr as a result.

I think it shows that the Catholic Church is granting sainthood to too many people.

The granting of sainthood requires only the confirmation of miracles and that the person in question die in a state of grace. You have some problem with your Church honoring the memories of good men?

 

[Red Door]

The granting of sainthood requires only the confirmation of miracles and that the person in question die in a state of grace. You have some problem with your Church honoring the memories of good men?

First of all, not my Church. Second of all, the title of sainthood has been practically been handed out under Benedict and John Paul, it's a disgrace.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

First of all, not my Church.

It's a figure of speech, dur.

Second of all, the title of sainthood has been practically been handed out under Benedict and John Paul, it's a disgrace.

Its a disgrace for them to delineate certain people as dying in a state of grace and capable of interceding on behalf of members of the Church Militant? Do you have some explanation for this? Heaven's not like a secret club that's cooler with fewer members, if thats what you're implying, everyone in heaven is a "saint".