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A Tale of Common Things

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Crezth, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    I made my concerns hours earlier in PMs to all three parties of the publicly listed treaty, actually. Thlayli only motivated me to do some public diplomacy since it's fun for the sake of roleplaying. The PM in question:

    And if you don't see why Russia would have a problem with both of her alliance partners entering another alliance which excludes her and claims jurisdiction over affairs which are clearly in her interest, I don't even know what to say to you.
     
  2. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    I sort of went to sleep before I could follow-up on that PM.

    XD

    *

    The spirit of Talleyrand, that sower of discord, lives on in France it seems.
     
  3. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    *sigh... This was entirely avoidable if you (Kraznaya) did not just unilaterally revoke the Holy Alliance. I made no comment in my original reply to your statement regarding whether Russia should be involved or not, and merely noted the rationale behind the declaration as it is currently stood (its reasoning, namely that it was idealised as complimentary to the Holy Alliance, and aimed at maintaining stability rather than being aggressively opposed to Russian interests, and an explanation of why Russia was not involved that didn't delve into the foolishness of clerical error) which left the way open to a diplomatic resolution that didn't involve a humiliating back-down from any party. But no, an explanation is responded too with tearing up a treaty and a heated discussion on intentions and non-existent "politics of rivalry and division'.

    At any rate, a pacific solution is still possible. Namely if Russia abrogates its abrogation of the Holy Alliance. Then from that we can conclude this episode of misunderstanding and grandfather Russia in on the Berlin Declaration considering you consider it necessary. Austria, Britain and Russia might lose a bit of face from the farce, but its better than letting that Talleyrand Thlayli get the last laugh ;)
     
  4. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    I didn't revoke it - it would only have been revoked if you went forward with that treaty as it existed.

     
  5. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Yes you did, just because Russia (ergo you) consider something to occur does not make it fact. The fact of the matter is that Austria did not abrogate, resign or forsake in any way its treaty obligations to the Holy Alliance, it is Russia that voluntarily chose to do so. Entering in to another treaty does not via media abrogate any other.

    Either way, considering this is ongoing, perhaps you have not actually abrogated the Holy Alliance since discussions are ongoing ( I read it that your statements in the sense that because the treaty was signed, you had abrogated the Holy Alliance, although if you meant only if discussions failed than the Holy Alliance would still be ongoing) and we can put this whole confusion behind us by grandfathering you in to the Berlin Declaration. Afterall as I noted, my original statement (prior to you noting abrogation) made no conclusion on Russian involvement or non-involvement and merely noted the rationale of the contemporary state of affairs as it was.
     
  6. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    Yes? If I were to consider the alliance ended, I would always put the blame of the abrogation of it on the other party - that's how blame works in disputes. If you would learn how to read, notice how I used "in that circumstance," the circumstance being your ratification of the previous treaty with no amendment. Since that circumstance will not occur, then the Holy Alliance is not abrogated.

    You're right that there's no clause in either treaty that precludes one from participating in both, but I already told you above why Russia (and Russians) would be deeply insulted by the posted Berlin Treaty as to consider the Holy Alliance farcical and useless at that point.
     
  7. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    As I just edited in the above message (right when you posted) I read your statement as saying you had abrogated the Holy Alliance because the treaty (as it stood) had been signed by Austria. Whether Russia is party to the Holy Alliance depends on whether it meant it would abrogate the Holy Alliance due to this circumstance being fulfilled (the treaty existing), or only in the event that discussions failed regarding Russian involvement therein.

    At any rate, could you please make up Russias mind on whether it wants to join the Berlin Declaration or not. As I have said in the last two posts, I am perfectly happy for Russia to sign the thing if it feels the necessity to do so. Just say the word and the suitable addition of titles and the Russian Empire shall occur.
     
  8. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    Okay, since you need it spelled out for you like a three year old:

    1.) We didn't abrogate the Holy Alliance.
    2.) We would have considered it abrogated if the previous Berlin Treaty is ratified.
    3.) That treaty will not be ratified since a new treaty will be ratified, with Russia rightfully in it.
    4.) You seem to be under the impression that you have sole authority to determine who is party to this treaty, given your comments in this thread, such as "I am perfectly happy for Russia to sign the thing if it feels the necessity to do so. Just say the word and the suitable addition of titles and the Russian Empire shall occur."
    5.) You might want to deflate your ego and read some Schroeder before you trip all over yourself again. Also brush up on how multi-party treaties work. Hint: speak for yourself.
     
  9. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    *sigh. Lets just deal with the necessities.

    3) Which is what I am saying should occur :rolleyes:, You want to be involved in the arrangement established in the Berlin Declaration so I am saying that Russia should be included and if it states it wants inclusion than we can get this whole thing over and done with.

    4) No I am not, since as you yourself noted Masada agreed to your inclusion, and in a PM to me Prussia inquired about the same thing. Ergo, there is no obstacle to your inclusion since no party objects. I was making a statement of how this whole debacle can be easily resolved if you requested to join the treaty since there is no obstacle in the way, and the suitable declaration that includes Russia alongside Prussia, Austria and Britain can be signed and ratified without any problem... I was not speaking for any other power, or claiming authority over the treaty as you seem to think.
     
  10. Tsoate

    Tsoate Chieftain

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    Argentina would be interested in strengthening our ties. Perhaps not a full alliance, but we can certainly begin the waltz with that intention. We would like to offer a trade pact as well as a non-aggression pact.


    If concerns Argentina that you seek to bring other major players in the South American Sphere.

    From: Argentina
    To: Empire of Brazil, Uruguay
    Cc: Great Britain


    We agree to continue abide by the treaty and respect its terms, let peace may continue between our three nations.

    Might it be worth working to an agreement of who of the foreign nations can access and trade with our glorious nations in South America? Quite the bargaining chip if we could all be in agreement.
     
  11. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    I said this:

    To which you responded this:

    Sounds like an unwillingness to included Russia and justification of not wanting Russia in the treaty to me.
     
  12. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Your interpretation is your own, and as I noted previously the totality of my original reply was an explanation of the modus vivendi of the agreement as it existed then (with the aim of continuing discussion) and a justification of why Russia was not originally involved, considering "clerical error" to me is a clear farce and Masada had not informed me of his intentions on the matter. It made no statement of whether Russia should be included or not via amendment or any other means, and indeed the quotations intent was "that Russia can see that the declaration is in no way an affront to Russian interests", ergo that the intent of the declaration as it was, was not intentionally directed against Russia (as compared to Thlaylis utterances insinuating that it was).

    Now, I think it is time to stop debating what we meant by what we said (considering it is clear to me at least that there has been confusion from both of us here) and proceed to resolving this disagreement. As I have noted there are currently to my knowledge no objections to Russian inclusion (via amendment or other means) to the agreement contained in the Berlin Declaration. If you (ergo Russia) wants to achieve inclusion, than the best way to proceed would be to request inclusion. Then the process for inclusion can proceed and we can cease this inane squabbling and confusion.
     
  13. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    What? My original post called for an amendment inserting all 5 members of the European Concert into the agreement. You posted that long-winded reply arguing why Russia shouldn't be in the treaty. Do you need Masada to tell you that Russia should be in a treaty guaranteeing European peace, or can you not figure that out by yourself?

    Since you also seem to be incapable of figuring out my stance on Russia's inclusion in the treaty, here I will repeat what I said again, as you seem to have genuine literacy problems.

     
  14. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Literacy problems? you made me laugh on that one. May I refer you to the following quote regarding Russian involvement in a treaty.

    Ergo, I am happy for Russia to be involved in the arrangement outlined in the Berlin Declaration by whatever road it wants, via the amendment path you originally outlined (although excluding the French, Austria doesn't trust their intentions at present), or via a "new treaty' which is exactly the same as the Berlin declaration in all respects save that Russia is party to it.
     
  15. Kraznaya

    Kraznaya Princeps

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    Yes obviously the amended treaty wouldn't be the same as the objectionable old treaty, hence it being the new treaty. Christ, this stuff shouldn't be hard to understand.

    I've discussed France's inclusion with Britain and we've come up with a satisfactory way to them to be included.
     
  16. Tsoate

    Tsoate Chieftain

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    :popcorn:
     
  17. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Than go ahead and include Russia via the Brittanic Method.

    And yes, this whole thing should not be difficult to understand which is why your utterances are most irritating considering they oft seem devoid of any comprehension whatsoever. I mean when you say you want to join an amended treaty, surely you cannot fail to see that that was precisely what I have been saying for some time now with regards to amendment, joining via amendment or other means, or "joining the Berlin Declaration", and so forth. I mean, Russia obviously cannot join the Berlin Declaration, without being included in the text, with the treaty as it currently stands becoming via Russia's inclusion amended to include you in it, thus being transformed into an amended treaty that is not the same as the original declaration. This should be an obvious and self-evident logical progression should it not? But no, apparently not.

    Yes I am frustrated, but I suppose best left to flow under the bridge for a few turns.
     
  18. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    POTSDAM DECLARATION: 1836

    Declaration between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the Austrian Empire, the Kingdom of Prussia, Kingdom of France and Russian Empire.

    -

    ARTICLE 1. All signatories to the above declaration agree to support the current political status of Italy.

    ARTICLE 2. All signatories to the above declaration agree to support the current political status of the Turkish Empire.

    ARTICLE 3. All signatories to the above declaration agree to support the current political status of the German Confederation and its constituent states.

    ARTICLE 4. All signatories to the above declaration agree to support the current political status of Spain.

    ARTICLE 5. All signatories to the above declaration agree to a pact of non-aggression to last twenty years.

    SIGNED,

    Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
     
  19. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    signed

    ~ His Imperial Royal Apostolic Majesty, Ferdinand I, Emperor of Austria, Apostolic King of Hungary, King of Bohemia and so forth and so forth.

    ~ Prince Klemens von Metternich
     
  20. ChineseWarlord

    ChineseWarlord Chieftain

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    Why should you care?
    To Brazil
    From Paraguay


    Odds are, we would gladly offer you use of our rivers in exchange for economic privileges. We would, however, appreciate knowing what these privileges might be.
     

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