A visual experiment: Would you like Civ3 to look like this -->

[Kryten]

To Volker,

Yes, you are quite right. There will be a "Civ3 Multi-Figure Mod Pack", which will contain all the usual units that you currently find in the basic Civ3 game, all converted to 'multi-figure' (but no player created or PTW units), in addition to Steph's wonderful utility which allows people to make their own.
The mod pack will be dead easy to download, with no modding/editing/rule changes, and can even be done in the middle of your current game, so that you will not have to start again.
Because it is only a matter of overwriting the current flc files, people with modded games or who have already added some new units of their own will be unaffected....only the original unit animations will be changed.

To Spooky,

Welcome to CivFanatics.
You raised some very important and fundamental questions.
Steph has already given an answer about potential game speed problems, and PC Highway covered the visual appearence aspect.
I would just like to say a few things about 'overall enjoyment' in Civ3.

Every player of Civ3 has two basic choices.....
1) play the game just as it is, straight from the box
....or....
2) use the editor that Firaxis have provided us with to enhance and (at least in our own minds) improve the game

The game 'straight from the box' is a good one, but there are some glaring anomalies.

First there are civs who are using the wrong units. Examples:-
Samurai = only the Japanese can build them....they got this right, as only the Japanese ever used them.
Longbowmen = anyone can build them....they got this wrong, as only the English ever used them in reality.
(Dark Sheer has fixed this by creating a Crossbowman unit. I have modded my game so that anyone can build Crossbowmen, but only the English can build Longbowmen)
Knights = anyone except the Chinese, Japanese and Indians can build them....but the only nations in reality who used west European Christian feudal Knights were....er....west European Christian feudal nations! Having eastern Moslem civs like Persia, Babylon and Egypt able to build them just looks wrong....you might just as well have the Americans, French and English able to build Samurai!
(I fixed this by creating a Eastern Horse Archer unit, so that only European Civs can build Knights, and everyone else builds Horse Archers instead)

Then there is the question of the 'missing units'.
The Civ3 Musketman is clearly 17th century, while the Rifleman is clearly late 19th century. What happened to the 18th century fusilieer with his tricorne hat that fought in the American War of Independance, or the 19th century Napoleonic Infantryman?
(Both these units have now been created by Dark Sheer and Smoking Mirror)

Now single figure units can only go so far. But 'multi-figure' units open up a whole new world of possibilities.
The Napoleonic Infantryman can become a 6 figure French Column unit, or a 4 figure Britsh Line unit, or a 4 figure skirmishing Napoleonic Light Infantry unit, and so on.
And what about combining different figures in the same unit!...
A Medieval Pikemen unit (3 pikes + 3 pikes)
A Feudal English foot unit (3 longbows + 3 pikes)
Swiss Mercenary Pikemen (3 pikes + 1 pike & 2 crossbows)
A Spanish 16th century Tercio unit (3 pikes + 1 pike & 2 muskets)
A Swedish/English 'Pike & Shot' unit (4 pikes in a block + a musket on each flank)
The possibilities are huge!

So rather than saying :-
"It looks nice ... but has the same effect as adding mag alloy wheels and racing stripes and a chrome exhause to your car - NONE"
I would say that:-
"It allows you to have different cars....either the bulk standard 'pickup truck' that comes out of the box, or a sports car, or a luxuary saloon, or anything you want."

Please don't think that we are all ganging up on you.
It's just that this is after all the "Creation & Customization Forum", and this is where all the people who like to add new units, change the basic rules, and create new scenarios live.



To Sa~Craig,

Originally posted by Sa~Craig
I think its a marvellous idea with 2 drawbacks
1. how are you going to stop people who don't have play the world downloading the multiple units for play the world.
2. how are you going to stop people who don't have play the world downloading the multiple units for play the world.
I know technically its only one drawback but I felt it was so important it was worth mentioning twice.

My I remind you sir of Jupiter Mining Corporation Space Corps Directive number 4798....
"Anyone posting figures from PTW will have them removed, and may also be banned for breaking site rules"


(I hope you don't mind my using your Napoleonic Infantryman for a preview Smoking Mirror....
....it's just that the kneeling down as they formed square looked so good)

 

[Smoking mirror]

Thats O.K Kryten, and any one who wants to convert any of my other units in to Munits please feel free.

For one thing I'd like to see a combination unit of dark sheers musketeer with riflemen skirmishers out in front, just how they were used originaly (true rifles were rare and expensive to start with, so the musketeers would provide the bulk of the fire power while the riflemen acted somewhat like snipers (they often wore dark green uniforms to provide more protection) able to shoot acurately at the enemy while staying beyond thier range and taking on comando type missions).

Also with mixed units you can modify some of the unit stats to better reflect real life.
Armoured knights often in later years fought on foot (and when attacking castles or towns etc..), they acted as individuals with the protection of lightly armoured men at arms (often armed with pikes or pole-arms), kind of like a tank with infantry support. Early firearms were developed specificly to counter the threat of such an enemy formation; pikemen would defend the musketman agaist the enemy men at arms while the musket man would use his highly inacurate firearm to penetrate the armoured knight in a relativly close ranged attack (somewhat like a WWII rifle battalion with antitank suport from bazookas or panzershreks).

To represent this use a pike unit (four pikemen) with a knight (on foot or on horseback) against a pike unit with a musket man.
Both would be a single unit, very expensive with good defense and a strong attack, but while the musketman unit would have a better attack and need saltpeter, the knight would have a better defence and require lots of iron, much more than just a pike unit which would have good deffence but low attack (you might make an all pikemen unit require no resources). Some of the pikemen could be replaced in either example with crossbowmen or archers to increase the attack rating, but this would reduce the deffence capacity of the unit.
Later musketters would not require as much help from pikemen or crossbows and bayonets would make these weapons obsolete, but in a detailed "pike and shot" scenario (the british civil war for instance) you would be able to better represent the development of military technology.

unit ADM values cost
all pike men 1/3/1 2
all Knights 4/2/1(2) 5(6) iron
All muskets 5/1/1 4 saltpeter
all bows 4/1/1 3 timber
pike and knight 3/4/1 5 iron
pike and shot 4/3/1 6 saltpeter
pike and bows 3/3/1 5 timber
pike, bows and
knight 4/4/1 6 iron and timber
pike, bows and
musketmen 5/3/1 7 timber and saltpeter

Just using musketmen, knights, longbows, and pikemen you have 9 variations and a very interesting range of tactical options for a scenario (though in this case its a basic choice of a few compact units of expensive, tough, flexible units vs lots of individualy weak and inflexible units).

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by Smoking mirror

All in all some very promising developments, with stephs utilities, I may be able to start making mods again (Ive had a break cos doing 8hours a day infront of a computer screen and then coming home to spend more time working with a computer seems a little massochistic).

Whow!! You mean... There's people who don't do that
It seems perfectly normal to me. But not to my wife strangely

 

[KillerSheep]

Originally posted by Kryten
To Volker,

Yes, you are quite right. There will be a "Civ3 Multi-Figure Mod Pack", which will contain all the usual units that you currently find in the basic Civ3 game, all converted to 'multi-figure' (but no player created or PTW units), in addition to Steph's wonderful utility which allows people to make their own.
The mod pack will be dead easy to download, with no modding/editing/rule changes, and can even be done in the middle of your current game, so that you will not have to start again.[/SIZE]

When do you estimate it's available for download?

 

[The Troquelet]

Wow, I invented a word and it actually caught on glad to see that at least a few people are calling them munits

There seems to be so much historical talent here, maybe you guys should get together to create a historical modpack or something

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by KillerSheep
When do you estimate it's available for download?

Well......I am working on it as we speak.

I was thinking of splitting it into four, one pack for each period, which would also make it easier to download, in case some of the new sound files make it too large.
So naturally I am starting with the ancient period first.

At the moment I am testing Steph's latest version of his fabulous utility by creating all the new ancient animations except for the routing-death.flcs. I am hoping to add these later (before we post first pack) when Steph releases the final version of the utility.

So how long?
Let's say....for the first ancient pack....and this is only a preliminary estimate....subject to changes due to unforeseen circumstances....assuming no major problems....and may be wildly inaccurate....it could be....maybe....in about 2 or 3 weeks? (approximately, maybe more, maybe less).
(Hey, be fair, Steph and I are "going where no civ game has gone before", so please allow us a little bit of flexability!)

 

[Willem]

Originally posted by Kryten

(I fixed this by creating a Eastern Horse Archer unit, so that only European Civs can build Knights, and everyone else builds Horse Archers instead)

Yeah right, you were the one to do that. Thanks, it's become a welcome addition to my game. Nice job. I make mine available to almost all though, I've just given it a bit more mobility than a Knight, and with a Bombard range of 0.

 

[mrtn]

Kryten:

I was thinking of splitting it into four, one pack for each period, which would also make it easier to download, in case some of the new sound files make it too large.

I usually play with all sounds turned off, and I'm sure I'm not alone doing this. So maybe you (generic) should put the sounds in a special pack, for those who want 'em. I have broadband, but a lot of people still have thinband.

And of course I agree with the hundreds of others who like this idea, I didn't want to fill the thread with more kudos, it's long as it is.

 

[Civanator]

SMOKING MIRROR, YOUR ALIVE! WOOOOHOOOOO! I thought you were gone for good. too bad you lost all your models, so that means you can't finish your units huh? well atleast you are around again.

 

[Grey Fox]

Originally posted by mrtn
Kryten:


I usually play with all sounds turned off, and I'm sure I'm not alone doing this. So maybe you (generic) should put the sounds in a special pack, for those who want 'em. I have broadband, but a lot of people still have thinband.

Yeah, do release the sounds in there own packs.

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by KillerSheep


When do you estimate it's available for download?

Well I have good news and bad news...

Bad news: The final version of the tool should not be available before quite a long time (perhaps 6 weeks?)

Good news : it's because I've just come with a whole bunch of new ideas, that could be interesting for "advanced designer" (mostly the possibility to change the parameters on frame by frame and orientation by orientation basis). So you generate a first storyboard using global parameters, and then you can study it frame by frame to make some adjustement if needed.

So, version 1 should be ready in less than a week, with all promised features, plus one (a timeline, so the user can see in the preview any frame in any direction).

And version 2, with additionial tweaking option, in 6 weeks

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Six weeks? But I want it now!



I'll have great fun experimenting with different munits. I especially like the idea of making one complicated multi-unit out of a few seperate multi units, like one by Kryten (I think it was you, wasn't it?)

I'll be checking this thread waiting for the release of what must be the best Civ3 tool I've seen! (not that I've seen much).

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
Six weeks? But I want it now!

1 week only for version 1, that already allows a lot of things. Kryten is not even using this version, but an older one, and look at what he did!

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Also, as for the problem for PTW units, could you (Steph) try this:

have an "Export instructions" button in the utility, So that you could send out a file with all the instructions on how to make the munit (e.g the paths of the units, their delay, position etc), which could be loaded into someone elses utility, so the instructions are already filled in, the user just needs to click a button to create the unit.

In other words, instead of (illeagaly) distributing the PTW munit graphic, you simply send a 'How to create xxxx munit' file that Your utility can read and process.

I think I got that idea across. Do it if you have time though. I'd rather see a partially operational utility soon without all the requested features than a complete utility six months later.

 

[Yoda Power]

SM is back :fish: :worshp:

 

[Illustrious]

Originally posted by Kryten My I remind you sir of Jupiter Mining Corporation Space Corps Directive number 4798....
"Anyone posting figures from PTW will have them removed, and may also be banned for breaking site rules"

Are you sure? I though that Directive 4798 stated that no crewmember wearing a toupee shall be allowed to practise oral sex in zero gravity.....

....or am I just suffering from droid rot?

Anyway, don't let them hurry you. We can wait (as long as it's not more than a few minutes).

 

[Neomega]

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man

I'll be checking this thread waiting for the release of what must be the best Civ3 tool I've seen! (not that I've seen much). [/B]

This is good, but I still think Flicster was the godsend to the civ III customization community. This is a godsend.

 

[Volker]

I take it then Steph that even someone like me who has never modded any computer game ever could use your Tool and look like an expert?

I hope its super de doper easy [dance]

 

[Steph]

Yes, providing your are using only existing units, and use my tool to create formation from them. Even complex things like the square made by Kryten are quite easy to do.

Note that with the release of the first version in about a week, I don't think there will be a real user's manual, this will come a bit later, as I want something really nice

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
Also, as for the problem for PTW units, could you (Steph) try this:

have an "Export instructions" button in the utility, So that you could send out a file with all the instructions on how to make the munit (e.g the paths of the units, their delay, position etc), which could be loaded into someone elses utility, so the instructions are already filled in, the user just needs to click a button to create the unit.

Hmm.. and what about a "read in the user mind what he wants to do and do it automatically" feature?

Anyway, I will take your remark in consideration. But probably not for version 1. For version 2, wiht the possibility to tweak the animation on a frame by frame basis, it will be a lot more interesting