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Acronym's Bucket List Succession Game - sign-ups open!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Acronym, May 27, 2014.

  1. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ah, yes, east, west, left, right... I always get that wrong... :blush:
    Or as we used to say as kids: "Go left". Friend goes left. "No, no, I mean 'the other left'!"

    In any case, you are right: pushing that city further east makes sense only if there is indeed flat land again on the other side of the hill range.

    As to the 3SW site: an extra irrigation is not much effort, we'll need tons of workers anyway. An optimal city site for the rest of the game is a much more important factor. And having 2-3 additional coast tiles that can be worked for the rest of the game is a lot. Also consider: the sugar tile can be accessed from 4SW as well, so that wouldn't be a factor.

    But in any case: all these locations are still question marks, we cannot decide them yet with the current information we have. For example, if a whale or fish becomes visible that can be accessed only from 4SW, then the decision becomes a no-brainer anyway...
     
  2. Acronym

    Acronym Warlord

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    OK, so I've hit 19 turns, and I'm going to stop one short and post the save here. I think the next few steps are probably going to need some discussion again. Lanzelot - feel free to pick up the save and play from here - I've taken long enough over the first 19 turns - apologies!

    So, developments since the last update:
    - I've built three warriors in a row - two for exploration and one for Military Police
    - I've gone straight onto a Settler after that, on the basis that we need to snatch up the land that we can see ASAP, and we should have plenty of food coming in. A granary after the settler might be in order
    - After finishing Pottery, I started on Alphabet, on the assumption that we are going for a Republic slingshot, and this pathway includes the Mausoleum, too
    - There is indeed extensive jungle to the South, but there is a whale just visible in the mist 3SW-3W from Oasenstadt, and a marsh 4SW of Oasenstadt. I think we would actually be best to settle 4SW, and clear the marshland in the process.
    - There are lots of plains to the NE - territory we'll want to claim early.
    - There is a purple civilisation to our East! I haven't closed in enough to contact them yet; I thought we might want to discuss how we approach our first neighbours.

    Screenshot and save attached below. I hope my micromanagement hasn't been too careless! (Also: for any lurkers, I have attached the initial start save file to the first post of the thread - please feel free to play alongside and try and beat us to the SpaceShip, but please do not post anything that could possibly be a spoiler before we've found it out ourselves! Thanks!)

    Next up: Lanzelot
    'On deck': MrRandomGuy

    Whales ahoy!


    Contact...?
     

    Attached Files:

  3. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    Well that looks veeerrry interesting.

    Typical that the one prospectively nice tile at 4SW (whales and 'nanas -- yummy!) turns out to be a swamp :( Can we actually settle on swamp in Conquests, or does it have to be cleared first (told you, I'm a n00b!)?

    But look at that lovely long river heading NE -- how many cities can we plant along it...? Starting with one at 2SE-2E (with floodplain and 2 grassland!), what do you say Lanzelot? ;)

    And that purple border has to be someone's capital, since it's already popped once. It's not on a river, but there's at least 2 floodplains in that BFC, so I think we should kill them ASAP, if feasible, before they really get going. Surprised they haven't sent anyone our way yet...

    Have to say, I'm getting really excited to play this map. But I promise to wait my turn patiently :D
     
  4. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    Yeah, you can't settle on Marshes, you have to clear them first.

    These are two very, very close starting locations. Our capitol is 8 tiles from theirs, and our starting location was 9 tiles from theirs.
     
  5. Acronym

    Acronym Warlord

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    Damn, I didn't realise that. That's going to put a spanner in the works then.

    As far as potentially squashing our neighbour before they enter exponential growth, how early could we do this? I don't know exactly how many units the AI starts with on Emperor, but they start with a fair few, don't they? Should we found a couple of cities and start churning out archers?
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Got it.
    Will update this post with an action plan later today.

    Ok, here my ideas.

    First of all: what is the worker doing on the sugar tile?!? It needed two turns to get there (wasting a full worker turn), we still need a third floodplain for +5fpt and in addition to that (the omission of that improvement will slow us down considrably), and the road it is building there currently will not give us any benefit, because the tile already has two commerce (so the third commerce from the road will be deleted anyway by the despotism penalty!) :donk:
    What can we do about it? Aborting the road now and moving it back to the floodplain, would waste another 3 worker turns, and the floodplain irrigation would not be ready in time for the next growth cycle anyway. So I guess I'll just let the road complete, then move back to the floodplain, improve it, and then the road can at least be used to get back to the sugar tile without losing a turn.
    Our new neighbours: quite close indeed... And look: they got our floodplain wheat!! :mad: Let's go and get it!
    Ok, but one step at a time... first we need to build an army...
    Judging from the color, it could be the Portuguese or the Iroquois. (Though to me it looks like our continent is quite big, and the eastern coast cannot already be where their capital is, so it can't be the Portuguese.) In any case, both of them start with Alphabet, perhaps we can get it for our Bronze + Warrior Code!

    So for now, we'll better treat them nice and friendly and trade as much as we can (but of course not Writing!).

    Build order: I have the feeling, that in this case we need another worker, even before the settler: the capital will grow quickly and therefore needs lots of improved tiles quickly, and the second city needs some irrigated plains as well to become productive. We already wasted a few worker turns for useless stuff and need to catch up. Also in the long run, there's a marsh and lots of jungle to clear. So an early worker can't be wrong. What do you think?

    As I will probably found our second town during my turnset, we need to decide:
    • Do we have consent on the site 2W-NW for our Colossus town? And then another one of he south-eastern hills for a future worker pump?
    • If we go for that coastal town first: should we produce a curragh first or take no risks and start with Colossus right away? I'm torn between these two options.
      If it is ok for all to check our opponents in F10, we could make a founded decsion: if there is no seafaring civ, there is no danger, as the AI will take some time to get a coastal town productive enough to build a wonder. However, if there is a seafaring civ, and they start the Colossus in their capital, they could easily beat us: after all, it's only 160s for the AI.

    Exploration: One warrior will continue in south-eastern direction and try to meet more friends. The other one will continue northward for a bit and once it hits the coast, return home asap in order to support our research effort.
     
  7. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    PS: as to "squashing our neighbour before they enter exponential growth": as long as we can still expand peacefully, there's no need for that. An Emperor AI is no threat. I even want them to get strong, as otherwise they won't be able to help us! (Sometimes, in research games, I even found cities for them and give them as a gift, because they settle too loosely and even leave cows and wheats in the first ring unused!)
    On Emperor, we will be vulnerable only during the first 50 turns. After that, there is no danger anymore, and we can use them as our puppets or take them over at our leisure, as appears best fit.
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Here an updated dot map. Of course it's still draft status, pending more exploration and also I need to create a food distribution map in order to check, whether each of these 9 locations will have 24 food with 12 worked tiles. (Should have some time for that over vacation.)



    1. will be our Colossus town, therefore first, even though it's only the second best location.
    2. will provide tons of workers.
    3. will first crank out 2 curraghs and then start on military.
    4-6. military!
    7-8. have time until we can spare the worker power to dry the marsh and burn down the rainforrest. (And that from a convinced environmentalist like me... :shake:)
     
  9. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    You can settle on jungle without clearing it, just not marsh.

    I think that might be spacing some of our cities a bit too close to each other, at least for the core.
     
  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    OK Lanzelot, not demanding you change that plan, but curious about your proposed city placement. How were you planning to feed City 4 -- just using that lone floodplain tile 1W-1SW of Oasenstadt? Or build a library to pop the border before you start on the barracks and the pointy bits? And City 5: in that position, it will need an aqueduct before it can get past pop 6.

    So why not move both those cities 1 tile south? That would put No.5 on the river, and gives No.4 immediate access toboth the floodplain tile and those grasslands west of Purple-Civ. (Once we're into Republic, the grassland could be irrigated for extra food, to compensate for the hills). No. 5 could even be planted in the middle (or south/east) of those four mountains, which would leave us room to put another city on the northern plains between the river and the coast.

    Moving No.4 south would put it too close to No.2 though -- unless that was moved too. But that would put it too close to No.8. However, I think I'd rather put a 1st-ring city on the plains to the north than in the middle of the jungle...

    Something that occurred to me earlier: Since the AI 'knows' exactly where everything is, that suggests to me that Purple-Civ may have better land/future resources to the east, since they haven't sent anything our way yet. As to who they might be, the Portuguese are Exp/Sea, which presumably means that they start with a scout, but Acronym hasn't reported seeing one. But if it's the Iroquois, do we really want them to get strong? (My cheat-sheet tells me) They're Ag/Comm, so will grow like weeds -- and if they've got horses, they will also be building Mounted Warriors! :eek:
     
  11. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    City 4 could use city center (2f), 3 plains (6f), floodplain (4f), 2 grassland (6f) and 6 hills (6f) for a total of 24f at size 12. But you are right: moving 4 and 5 1S looks like a good idea! At least saves one aqueduct.
    I was afraid that it would be too close to 2 and get too cramped, but we could move 2 1SW and 8 1S as well?

     
  12. Toxicman007

    Toxicman007 Custom User Title

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    This is mainly a subscription post. Looking forward to lurking this thread! I downloaded the starting save and gave it a go myself, but I ended up winning a conquest victory instead of the space race :evil:
     
  13. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    I think 3 is kind of pointless- it would have too much overlap with the other core cities and mostly just get water tiles for itself. if you're worried about wasting tiles, you can move 6 1 SW. And 4 and 5 are CxC, certainly too close for core cities.

    I also think we should settle East first, where we have more competition.
     
  14. MrRandomGuy

    MrRandomGuy Warlord

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    Where we settle depends on who our neighbors are.

    If it's the Iroquois, they have the agricultural trait which allows them to create cities faster. If we aren't careful they can quickly settle all of the good terrain and box us in.

    If it's Portugal then it doesn't matter as much since the only advantage they would have over us would be better exploration due to the seafaring trait.

    We also might want to consider eliminating the civ entirely if our area happens to be a peninsula.
     
  15. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    3 is an excellent spot. In the beginning, while Oasenstadt is working as a settler pump, 3 will have enough plains tiles for production, and later, when we let Oasenstadt grow to 12, 3 can work 10 coastal tiles for a total of 60 bpt! One of our best research spots (and don't forget, that we get harbour, library and university all at half price!)
    Also we need a spot for our early curraghs, if 1 is going to start the Colossus. (BTW: no one commented yet on whether for this game it's ok to use F10?!)

    And consider: why be content with 6 (12 uncorrupted citizens), if we can quite as well have 3 and 6 (24 uncorrupted citizens)? The area will certainly support that many citizens. (Food distribution map will follow, when I have more time.)
     
  16. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    @Lanzelot:
    First of all, I like your new city placement better than the old one (obviously, since you used at least some of my suggestions! ;) ). Secondly, I'm staring at the fog around the fruit, and I noticed the following: there's a 1-tile land-bridge to the SW, and a coast tile to the SE, so the coast due south of the fruit might actually be on a freshwater lake (= Pop-12 without an aqueduct).

    If so, you/we might want to rethink the southern city-sites, at least No.8. Unless your current spot is _also_ on a coast tile (might be, there's definitely marsh to the SW, but not sure about due south), whoever builds and sends out Settler8 might want to consider planting City8 next to the fruit instead. (Downside: no hills/shields in that BFC; upside: lots of trade with a harbour, lots of grassland once we've slash'n'burned, and possibly a chokepoint city if we settle on the land-bridge).

    At any rate, if you/we have a Warrior with nothing to do, it might be worth sending him (back) down there to fogbust ASAP, and/or fortify on the bridge.
     
  17. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    That's why are discussing things like these here, right... :D Together we'll have more and better ideas than one alone...

    Regarding 8: I'm not sure, but I think in its current location it is already on the coast. (The tile SW of 8 looks like it has water on two sides.) But we'll definitely scout that area a bit more, before the settler for 8 will be ready.

    And no matter whether it's fresh water or salt water, a town on that "land-bridge" will be very valuable indeed.
     
  18. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    One more point on that theme: choxorn, I hope my criticism of your assessment of location 3 did not sound too harsh? Please don't let it keep you from contributing, every input is valuable.
    And in fact: your point was a very valid one, in the long run that town will have almost no production, and in a military game where production for cranking out units is the most important, I probably wouldn't bother to put a town there myself.
    However, what I tried to explain here: in a research game, production is irrelevant and commerce is the most important factor. And here coastal tiles are better than normal land tiles, because they give 33% more commerce! (Under Republic: coast - 3 commerce, land tile with road - 2 commerce.)
    So under these changed circumstances, that spot suddenly becomes quite valuable, especially as it has first-ring status. An additional 60 bpt is not to be scoffed at...

    Ok, I'll play a couple of turns now.
     
  19. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    A fair point. Perhaps it does make sense as a city, it just still seems kind of cramped to me...

    I would move 4 one tile SE, though. You do lose that one FP tile, but our capitol and 2 already need that, and moving it causes less overlap and should give us a decent city once we clear the jungle around that area.
     
  20. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Preflight: nothing to do.

    T20, 3000BC: we meet Scandinavia! (I knew there's one more purple civ... :rolleyes:). Unfortunately they know BW and WC. But I'm able to buy Alphabet for Pottery, 11g and 7gpt. Stiff price, we can't accept that, it would keep us from doing any research! (The extra worker will soon cost -1gpt.) So I sell them pottery for 10g. They go from annoyed to cautious.

    T21, 2950BC: discover the first lux: silks. But a Scandinavian settler is already there. :mad:

    T22, 2900BC: worker -> settler.

    T25, 2750BC: we meet England. They also start with Alphabet and are willing to give it to us for Warrior Code! They even toss in their spare 10g! Excellent! Start full speed on Writing now. England also knows CB, but that's not interesting for us.

    T34, 2390BC: settler -> settler. England discovered Masonry.

    T35, 2350BC: Kolossusstadt founded. As we already met two sea-faring nations, it starts Colossus immediately.

    T36, 2310BC: Copenhagen is founded inside our first ring! (Blocking our spot 5.) That means war will be unavoidable.

    T37, 2270BC: Scandinavia knows Writing, darn! :mad: They are not willing to sell it. At least it saves 1-2 turns for us.

    T40, 2150BC: England's borders come in sight! 7 turns left on Writing. Not much to report otherwise.

    Handover notes:
    • Important: don't forget to swap the oasis with Kolossusstadt for one turn next turn. Oasenstadt needs 9 shields for the settler and is currently making 4spt.
    • The northern warrior can go on the mountain to take a look at Trondheim now and then return home asap. It has scouted enough of the northern part of our continent (the remaining coast tiles can be unveiled by our second curragh) and is now urgently needed as military police. Our research is already quite slow for my taste, and having a single warrior as defence at home, with such a close neighbour, is also not to my liking...
    • The workers should now quickly finish the remaining 3 floodplains to allow quick growth for town 2. That town should probably first build 1-2 warriors to let it grow, and then a couple of workers without granary. There simply aren't enough shields yet for a granary. First two jungles need to be chopped and mined.
    • And remember what I said a couple of posts ago? The AI is too stupid to use food-boni even 3 tiles away from its capital... Just look at Scandinavia: They have a wheat flood-plain, the best food resource in the game - and none of their cities can use it... :crazyeye: In the hands of a human player, that tile would be a horrible weapon...
     

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