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Acronym's Bucket List Succession Game - sign-ups open!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Acronym, May 27, 2014.

  1. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    Made a very quick'n'dirty dotmap in MSPaint from Acronym's last screenie, showing potential city sites (red dots) at distance 4(.5) from Oasenstadt (which, BTW, sounds OK to me -- but I'm British, not German!). Hopefully it'll upload successfully and won't look too horrible (I think I should have saved it at a higher colour setting).

    I've circled a set of points that would give us a first ring of 7 cities, none more than 2 tiles from the next (= each of those cities would get potentially 8 tiles, defenders could be moved in one turn between adjacent cities, borders join up without culture). Two would definitely be coastal cities, but I think it would be better to expand inland first, given our position on the minimap.

    EDIT:
    Query, since I'll probably want to do this again over the course of the game -- how do I get that uploaded graphic to show as a thumbnail?

    EDIT the second:
    Never mind, I think I figured it out. Let's see now...

     

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  2. dalgo

    dalgo Emperor

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    lurker's comment: this looks fun
     
  3. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Hmm, looks like the forum ate last night's post of mine?!?

    But it doesn't matter: you did anyway, what I was about to suggest: move settler on hill to get a better view of the south and then decide whether "2" or "3" would be the better capital location. And "2" is indeed better here, because of tjs282's argument of leaving more room for the western coastal cities.

    "Oasenstadt" is perfect German! :goodjob:

    Some input for the early turns:
    Oasenstadt can work the oasis for 4 turns and then should switch to the floodplain for another 4 turns, so it can grow in 8.
    The first warrior should first make a "half-circle" around the capital to uncover a good map for our first ring. Only then it should wander off in search of other civilizations. For a science game it is very important to find the perfect spots for all first ring cities (these are, what will stem 99% of the research effort throughout ancient and middle age!) and to find nearby luxury resources (especially on Emperor, where already the second citizen is uncontent). And finding many contacts early is not that important: when going for the Republic sling, we can't trade Alphabet and Writing anyway, as it would be much too dangerous on Emperor. But once the sling is complete, we can easily pickup the rest of the ancient age with our monopoly Republic, so it is sufficient to have the contacts by then.
     
  4. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Comment on the dotmap: yes, this is how a good first ring should look like. Of course it may need adjustment as we uncover the area around us, depending on the location of further food and luxury resources and rivers.
    Perhaps we can even fit an eighth city in there at 1N of the first oasis. Because remember: we are militaristic, which means half-priced harbours!! So for a 30s-harbour we can make use of many many commerce-rich coastal tiles (which enables much faster research than a "normal inland town" would be able to do early on).

    In general I agree with tjs282's idea of settling inland first. Mainly because the next neighbor could be in that direction and we need to grab that land quickly, while our "backyard" in the west is pretty safe for now.
    However, I suggest to settle at least one shield-rich coastal town first, for two reasons:
    a) Send out 1-2 early curraghs for exploration. They usually have to travel quite a distance, so it's good to send them out early (especially as they can travel undisturbed by barb galleys, as long as no nation has discovered Map Making yet!)
    b) Start early on the Colossus. The Colossus is one of the most valuable wonders in a science game. For the low investment of 200 shields, it provides ~25 beakers per turn (when combined with library and university) for almost three ages: ancient, middle and industrial age, until the discovery of Flight! For that reason I might even be tempted to found the town 2W-1NW first: at size 7 it can make 10spt and get the Colossus before the AI does. (And we can start quite early, because we already have Bronze Working.)
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    The worker can build a road next: it will delay growth to size 3 only by one turn, but gain a lot of commerce in return:
    Column 1 Column 2
    Worker Oasenstadt
    irrigate(2) Oasis (2f -> 2)
    irrigate(3) Oasis (2f -> 4)
    irrigate(4) Oasis (2f -> 6)
    road(1) Oasis (2f -> 8)
    road(2) iFloodplain (3f -> 11)
    road(3) iFloodplain (3f -> 14)
    move iFloodplain (3f -> 17)
    irrigate(1) iFloodplain (3f -> 20 -> grows)
    irrigate(2) Oasis+iFloodplain (3f -> 3)
    irrigate(3) Oasis+iFloodplain (3f -> 6)
    irrigate(4) Oasis+iFloodplain (3f -> 9)
    road(1) Oasis+iFloodplain (3f -> 12)
    road(2) 2xiFloodplain (4f -> 16)
    road(3) 2xiFloodplain (4f -> 20 -> grows)

    So growth to size 3 takes 6 turns instead of 5, if we stop for a road, but we'll have quite a bit of extra commerce (earlier Republic: invaluable) and quite a bit of extra shields from the oasis (earlier granary: invaluable as well).

    Question is: what will be our build order? Do we want to start the granary right away (after let's say 1-2 more warriors for military police) or do we want an early settler even before the granary in order to get a safe shot at the Colossus?
    An early worker will also be necessary, as we'll have to irrigate a lot of plains tiles in order to maintain +5fpt. (With floodplains alone, one can't build a 60s-granary...)
     
  6. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    Glad you approve. It goes without saying that this was only a suggestion of possible future city sites (I have a feeling that 1 or 2 of those points might actually turn out to be mountains).

    I did consider putting a town on the coast 1N from the northern oasis, but that's only distance 3(.5) from Oasenstadt. I know RCP isn't nearly as important in Conquests as in Vanilla, but if I understood Alexmann's corruption article, a perfectly equidistant ring does still minimize the 'distance' component of the Conquests corruption algorithm output -- is that right?

    If so, and we're going to build a distance-3 ring with maximum coastal cities, then placing cities at the cardinal points relative to Oasenstadt (hills 2W, plains at 3NW, 3SW and 2N) would give us 4 coastal cities. But wouldn't this be too crowded?

    If we're going to use the distance-4 ring after all, then my vote would be to send our first couple of settlers along the riverbanks: one downstream (WNW) to build 'Kolossusstadt'(?) on the coastal plains as suggested ;) followed by one upstream (SE), aiming to build on the river (where it crosses the ring). If we're very lucky, we might even find iron in them thar hills (and if we've already got IW, we won't need to leave it to chance) -- and then we can (re)name the upstream town 'Eisenberg'! We can then decide on the remaining city spots based on those two points.

    Question to Acronym:
    Just a thought: Can you remember whether you turned on 'culturally linked starts' when you generated this game (it's not currently mentioned on your first post in this thread), i.e. are our neighbours likely to be other European civs (mostly harmless, except for the Celts), or might we be facing an onslaught of e.g. Bowmen and/or Immortals in the very near future?
     
  7. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    I know a granary is essential for a settler farm, but do we need to build it so early? Oasenstadt will grow so fast, might it not be better to put those 60 shields into 2 settlers and/or a settler and some workers? Also, we've got so much floodplain available that I'd almost be inclined to break the 'mine green, irrigate yellow' rule of thumb and mine some plains or desert (not the oases, obviously!), which would be much quicker than mining the hill.

    (I have a feeling that blindly following 'mine green, irrigate yellow' messed up one of my recent solo games as the Russians -- my starting point's BFC encompassed floodplain/ desert/ plains/ mountain, in that order of frequency, and I irrigated everything instead of mining the plains and desert, which really slowed my early builds. Maybe I should have just pop-rushed all my units and improvements, but I'm not ruthless enough to do that, even to computer-generated people... :jesus: Something else I need to get over...?)
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I'm not an expert on this, but the way I understood the corruption articles on the Vanilla/PtW corruption model and the C3C corruption model, the difference is like this: in the old model, all towns with same distance share the same "rank" value (allowing some extreme exploits like jumping your palace to a remote isolated area and leaving almost all your cities world-wide with zero corruption...), while in the new model, this possible "exploit" was fixed by giving every city a different "rank" value.
    So in our example, if we have 7 cities at distance 4 and then add an eighth city at distance 3:
    a) in Vanilla/PtW, the former 7 cities would first have rank 1 (with pretty much neglible corruption), and then, when the eighth city is founded, they would all drop to rank 2 (increasing corruption in all of them significantly), while the new city now gets rank 1. If the new city would be founded at distance 4 as well, then all 8 cities would keep rank 1 and only have minimal corruption.
    b) in C3C, the equi-distant towns have rank 1 - 7 (according to their order of founding). If we add an 8th city at distance 3, they would now get rank 2 - 8, while the new town gets rank 1. If we add the 8th city at distance 4, it would get rank 8, while the first 7 keep their ranks. In both cases, we would end up with a total of 8 cities having rank 1 - 8, so once these 8 cities are fully grown, there is no difference at all in terms of corruption. (However, in the period following directly after the foundation of the 8th city, there is some impact: the older 7 cities can be assumed to have grown a bit and be well-developed, while the new-found town is size 1 and doesn't produce much yet. So the well-developed cities all get a slight corruption penalty, while the still unproductive size-1 town gets the best corruption value... This is of course not so desirable. But as I said, this effect goes away, once the new town is also fully developed and can therefore take full benefit of its low corruption. And this effect can be avoided/minimized by founding the distance-3 town quite early in the expansion phase.)

    Well, to make a long story short: in C3C other factors (access to a river or to early resources) are much more important than the above slight effect on corruption, so Ring-City-Placement is basically "dead" in C3C. We don't need to pay attention to it.

    It might get a bit too crowded, but we'll see once we have a better map of our lands. We should make sure that every first-ring city has 12 tiles to work on, because that makes the most out of our multiplier buildings. For example: if we can work 6x12 = 72 tiles with 6 cities (case a), we need 6 markets, libraries and universities. If we cramp 8 cities into these same 72 avaiable tiles (case b), we need 8 markets, libraries and universities. The total output would be approx. the same (not quite, because in case b, cities #7 and #8 would have higher corruption so the output of the tiles worked by these cities would be reduced compared to case a), but the investment would be higher (480 shields more needed for the additional markets, libs and unis) and the maintenance cost for the additional 6 buildings would cost -8gpt.

    But if we can work additional tiles (especially high-commerce coastal tiles) that can't otherwise be accessed, we should build additional towns.


    Yes, I like these two spots too. Especially as there is more floodplains upstream, which might result in a good spot for a worker-pump or (still hoping for a wheat...:D) a second settler pump.

    I had the same feeling. One possible reason for a settler before granary I have already given above: in order to secure Colossus. If we discover let's say a wheat upstream, that might be another reason that justifies another early settler. Also: with 3 irrigated floodplains, our growth rate is so high and the shield output so low, that during the time it takes to finish the granary, our single worker would not be able to keep up with tile improvements to match Oasenstadt's growth. We would end up working unimproved tiles (with only 1 food), slowing down our expansion rate... During the time it takes to build 2 settlers or a settler and a worker, the worker has time to prepare more tiles and the capital can be kept down to size 4-6.

    However, I'm not fond of poprushing, even in floodplain starts like this. The results that cracker got in his early experiments (see cracker's Opening Play Site) did not appear too promising to me, and the happiness penalty is too high a price to pay, especially on Emperor or higher, where happiness is always a problem and considering that we want to get out of Despotism asap, so we need every single gold coin we can get for research.
     
  9. Acronym

    Acronym Warlord

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    tjs - Yep, we have 'culturally linked start locations' - I hope that's alright. (I have a screen grab of the Setup menu, if there are any more questions about which rules, but I wanted to save the CFC servers! Essentially, I clicked 'Default rules', so cultural conversions and scientific leaders are in, too).

    Lanzelot - one question, not to criticise but because I'm aware that there's a lot of these discussions that will go over my head. Your table of the first few turns, after the first growth, shouldn't the food income go to 5 when the oasis and floodplain are being worked?

    Actually, I think I might have worked it out - is it because 2f are being used to feed the new citizen?

    I take it I should increase the entertainment slider to keep the second citizen happy when we get one. Next question: should I increase this the turn before growth, or once we have the new citizen? When would the city riot if I didn't touch the slider?

    Got to prepare a presentation for tomorrow, but I will try and squeeze in a turn or two tonight too - the next couple of turns shouldn't provide too many headaches, at least!
     
  10. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, the food consumed by citizens is subtracted. So "+4fpt" or "+5fpt" just means the "food overflow", which is being added to the food bin.

    Increasing lux slider next turn is sufficient. Happiness calculation happens before growth.
     
  11. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    If you're worried about uploading too many images to CFC servers, you can instead upload them to an image-hosting site. I recommend http://imgur.com/.
     
  12. Acronym

    Acronym Warlord

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    Great - cheers, team.

    So, tsj was spot on - mountains to the SE! I suppose the river had to be coming from somewhere...

    (An aside: one of the things that annoys me most about Civ5, more than the 1-unit-per-tile, is the fact that rivers just start randomly, or end randomly. I love that they always seem to start in hills or mountains and end at the coast in Civ3!)

    So, 3600BC: our first settlement appears to be a great location. Unfortunately, a lot of our projected future settlements are looking a lot less promising! I think I'll move the warrior one more tile South, and then swing round to the East.



    Crap! Screwed it up already - forgot to change the worked tile to the iFloodplains. Dammit! Will pay more attention next time...
     

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  13. Acronym

    Acronym Warlord

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    Damn - so I screwed up and forgot to change the worked tile from the oasis to the iFloodplain.

    We have 8 empty food boxes in our Food Storage box - so I guess I should stay on the oasis for one more turn (to get the shield) and then change to the irrigated floodplain, to grow after two turns working that. Is that right? I've never worried too much about wasting overflow food/shields before, but perhaps now's the time!
     
  14. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yep!
    (This takes a while to get used to, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes your second nature and you'll start thinking in terms of these "magic numbers"...)

    PS: on emperor some basic micro-management like this is necessary, because the AI has a 20% discount on everything. But the AI doesn't pay attention to MM, so it "wastes" food, shields and even research left and right, and with a bit of attention to detail one should be able to "equalize" that 20% discount and make the same progress as the AI. (Only starting with Demigod the AI gets the upper hand over the human player, as 30% discount plus all these extra start units are too much to overcome in the early phase...)
     
  15. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    Yeah well, I would have been happy to be wrong about that. I was very much hoping we would have more flat land than that alongside the river, before we hit a major hill/mountain range. As it is, I'm now much less inclined to plant a city up there this early (except perhaps as a border-fort).

    Not played Civ5, but (as you'd hope!) CivIII's terrain generation algorithm's much better than in CivDOS, too. It generally seems to produce very 'intuitive' geography.

    As well as the hills to the east, it looks like there could be a large chunk of jungle to the south, which is going to severely limit expansion and warfare in both those directions (on the bright side, it'll help slow down incoming AI Civs too).

    So I'm now thinking that maybe we should keep our first ring cities tight (CxxC to CxxxC) around Oasenstadt after all, and expand along the coast instead of inland. There looks to be at least one good coastal spot at 3SW (can I see grassland in the fog?), but the majority of our settlers should probably be sent north towards the temperate zone, where we should be able to find more grassland/forest than we've drawn with this (quite tropical) start.

    However, it's highly unlikely that land is uninhabited, so we may well end up fighting earlier than we might have liked. Our first-ring cities will therefore need to start spamming out Archers ASAP while we try and obtain HBR and/or IW (one way or another). Make them fear us! :trouble:

    (Ancient Cav would be nice, but I think we'd need Elephants for that, right?)
     
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yep, Statue of Zeus needs Elephants, and I can remember only one single game of mine, where I have been lucky enough to have that resource...: my last succession game, OCCC1.

    So I'm afraid, we won't be able to build it. (Can't expect to be lucky twice in a row, can I...) But it would be a very good wonder in our situation: it is one of the few early wonders with the MIL trait that we could use well for triggering our GA in the early middle age, and with 200s quite cheap as well. The other MIL wonder would be the Great Wall, which comes at a perfect time (Construction, which is usually the last tech of the ancient age) and is reasonably cheap at 300s, but it is not as useful as Zeus. (We'll be attacking, not defending, right? :D)

    If we miss the Great Wall, the next MIL wonders would be Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's, which are not really useful in a science game and cost a staggering 600s.

    Ok, so while we are at it, let's also review the second wonder we need for the GA, the SCI wonder. Here there are only two options: the Mausoleum, which is semi-useful but at least very cheap at 200s, and the Great Library (400s), which is completely useless for us. (We'll be the tech leader anyway by the time we are able to build it.) If we can't get one of these two, it means "no middle age GA for us", as the next SCI wonder is Newton's University, which comes with one of the last middle age techs: Theory of Gravity, which is much too late for our GA.

    So at the moment I would say: let's build the Mausoleum early, and then time a prebuild for the Great Wall to complete in the early turns of the middle age. I would be tempted to let the AI build these wonders for us and then capture them and trigger the GA with any arbitrary wonder that happens to fit into our plans (e.g. Hanging Gardens, which is an excellent wonder for a science game), but we might run the risk that the necessary wonders get built on another continent where we won't be able to capture them in time?! (One reason to get some early exploration going: if we find out, that all nations on this world can be reached with Map Making, we can lean back and relax, first finish our core and then check where the necessary wonders are and go and get them...)

    That mountain range is indeed unlucky... :( But we have no choice, we need to settle there, because those 6 floodplain tiles are our only food tiles, so if we want to achieve any halfway decent expansion, we need to use them. At least there are 6 of them, so we can operate two towns at +5fpt, one can be setup as worker pump, the other as settler pump.
    One town will become our Colossus town (and then perhaps follow up with Mausoleum, so it can grow to 12 quickly without needing the luxury slider and that way make the best use of the Colossus early on?!), and the rest of the first ring towns will have to produce our military units; first for military police for faster research and later for capturing more lands...
     
  17. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    So... something like this?
     

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  18. Acronym

    Acronym Warlord

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    Apologies - just to say I'm still here - busy period over and back to life as normal now.


    Sent from my mobile
     
  19. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yes. With perhaps two more question marks assigned to the spots "3xSW" and "SE-2xW".
    Could be that we can push these out one more tile.
     
  20. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone cold fish

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    I assume 'SE-2xW' is a typo, and you actually mean the city-site at 'SE-2xE'...? ;) If so, can't say I considered pushing it even further east -- that point looks to be surrounded by hills, so a city wouldn't grow unless there's also irrigable land in that fog (that we could get without needing to build culture first). Conversely, could that 'desert' at SE-E from Oasenstadt actually be another floodplain? (If Acronym had the 'show resources' preference checked, we'd know for sure!). If it is, then I still like SE2xE.

    Pushing the 3SW site to the presumptive grassland(?) at 4SW would certainly give that city 6-7 coast tiles instead of 4-5 (and more jungle->grassland), but it would also mean having to irrigate the plains at 3SW just to get the 2 food (plus shield). If we're not fussed about ending up with massive metropolii in the late game (are we going to build Hospitals...?), I just thought it would be better to 'irrigate' the 3SW plains by planting a city on it, and then, once it gets to pop-2, use the bonus sugar and the 4SW grassland to get another 4(?) food (plus 2-3 inherent shields), even before terrain improvement. Would this be a miscalculation?
     

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