ADA Day

[dreadhead7]

Yesterday was the 11th anniversary of the passing of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). This law protects people with disabilities from discrimination in two key areas: employment and public accommodations. Actually, the law is extremely complex; there are actually six parts, called "titles" to the Act. The above-mentioned items are the areas of the ADA that have the greatest impact on the lives of folks with disabilities who live in the community. The ADA is to people with disabilities as what the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was to African Americans, women, and other "minorities".

I spent most of yesterday attending celebratory and educational events to note the day, and that got me thinking about the whole issue of disability rights. I'm interested to know how you folks feel about people with disabilities. What do you think about when you see them? Do you think that people with disabilities are worthwhile people, or are they not worthy of life? Do you think that folks with disabilities have the right to live and work in their communities, or should they be kept away for their own good and protection? Or, have you even thought about this issue at all?

Since many of you are from other countries, I'd also like to know how it is for people with disabilities in your country. What is your country's attitude, in general, towards disabled folks?
In the US, the situation of people with disabilities varies from state to state, and city to city. I live in Denver, which is the most accessible city in the US for people with disabilities. It is literally a Mecca for folks with disabilities. 100 miles North, in Wyoming, services available to people with disabilities are almost nonexistant.

It would be interesting to hear what you folks think. I am a disability rights activist and a person with disabilities. I would be happy to educate people about the issues.




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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

Well, I'm not too educated on the laws, at least those specifically pertaining to disabilities, but I can say that it's very encouraging seeing that a relative of mine, who has Down Syndrome, has been employed as a (very busy) part time worker for the last 10 or so years

 

[Iroquois]

great thread dreadheaddd!

The ADA is one of the most important human rights legislation in American history and perhaps the world.

In nature it's survival of the fittest. But as human beings we have civilization which allows even the least fit to survive in the wild to live to old age. It is important that we treat thes people as though they were our very own relatives. They need to be loved and respected for who they are and not what they don't have though.

Anyway, the ADA makes sure that society gives them a chance in the workplace and in public.

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"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

 

[FearlessLeader2]

I have no problem with the ADA, except that I don't understand why people who are incapable of hurrying need the best parking spaces. I mean seriously, they don't exactly HAVE to be anywhere, do they? Most all of them are supported by the state, and the very few that work do so by choice, not neccessity. So why give them the best parking spots?

 

[dreadhead7]

The ADA is not the law that created accessible parking spaces, they predated it. The ADA mandates the ratio of accessible spots to standard ones, and the size, width, and signage of each. Most large parking lots here in Denver are integrated so that some of the accessible spots are in the back of the lot. That's fine with me. I don't need the best spot, just an accessible one. It can be anywhere in the lot that they care to put it.

Now, Fearless, I'm going to address a couple of things here. I do not intend to insult, demean, or flame you. I have a great deal of respect for you, so I'm going to make some comments to some things that you said because they represent some common stereotypes about people with disabilities. I'm going to step into 'education mode' for a bit, because there needs to be some educating, and since I've been doing this most of my life, am used to it, and don't mind it at all, I'll take this up. I think it'll be good to hear from the perspective of one with a disability.

You said:

"I mean seriously, they don't exactly HAVE to be anywhere, do they? Most all of them are supported by the state, and the very few that work do so by choice, not neccessity."

It is stereotypical thinking to assume that people with disabilities have nowhere to go, or have no "business", meaning things to take care of, or important things to do. People with disabilities raise children, go to school, work, and worship, and are active in groups and clubs like all of us. It has been my experience that many folks believe that disabled people are worthless and helpless, or objects of pity and disdain. Obviously, that is not true, for all humans have worth. Except for profound retardation or brain injury, people with disabilities can do many, many things as long as the will, the technology, and in some cases, the income exists. The great majority of disabled folks do not want pity, nor we want to be hated or feared.

Another stereotype is that people with disabilities either cannot or do not want to work. The unemployment rate among people with disabilities in the US is higher than any other group--upwards of 90%! However, the truth of the matter is that the great majority of folks with disabilities WANT to work, and many can. One of the reasons that folks with disabilities are unemployed in such high numbers is that they lack the training or education to get a job. This is because in most cases, disabled children are sent to "special schools", or placed into "special education" classes. I can assure you from personal knowledge that special education is neither special, nor, education. In most cases, the schools and classes are warehouses where children are trained and expected to enter the workshop instead of the workplace, and to live in a nursing home, or other institution instead of on their own, in the community. Many agencies that are suppose to help disabled folks to find work won't help their clients, especially if their disabilities are severe, because they feel that they can't work. They are groomed for the welfare rolls and groomed to have a welfare mentality.

Another reason for the high unemployment rate among people with disabilities is that businesses are leery of hiring a disabled person. They put forth all kinds of excuses for not hiring, such as excessive training costs, or excessive costs of accommodations, when in most cases, the costs are little or nothing. Some don't belive that people with disabilities have the ability to work, while some believe that people with disabilities shouldn't be in the community. I have many painful memories of humiliation at the hands of human resource personnel and job interviewers simply because I was a disabled person who wanted to work. I find it amazing that people and agencies will do all they can to keep folks with disabilities from entering the workplace, then b**** and moan about disabled people living off of the taxpayers and wanting "special rights"!

In my opinion, the biggest problem that folks with disabilities have is the attitudes of society in general. Think about what you think of when you see someone with a disability. Think of the people who would abort a child because it has a disability, or who would rather die than be disabled. Think of the folks who make fun of people with disabilities, or who hurt and exploit them simply because they can. Obviously, society's attitudes, and the messages that they send can lead to poor self-esteem and self-hatred. The key is for people with disabilities not to give up, or buy into society's form of thinking. It will be a glorious day when people with disabilities are fully integrated into society, and people in general will see our worth, gifts, and beauty.




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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[Iroquois]

Very well said dreadhead. I am not a disabled person myself, at least not enough to warrant any special treatment. However, as an ENFP, I can certainly empathize with those who are.

Also, as an ENFP, I have a very strong sense of values in which Fearless has tread accross. Fearless, I would like to address your statement as well. If you whould try to put yourself in the shoes of the people you are judging then you would see your mistake.

I know it is a lot of trouble having to go past handicaped places in the parking lot to find a space at the back, and it would be much easier for you if those people parked at the back like the rest of us. But then you would have to wait as you entered the parking lot as the disabled person SLOWLY made thier way accros the street in thier wheel chair or with thier walker. Maybe you would even have to wait on the emergency crews to get out of your way who are there for the handicaped person who got hit because they couldn't get out of the way fast enough when a speeding motorist came along.

I realize I am not very diplomatic like dreadhead about explaining this but I definitely made my point.

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"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have spent around $60,000 on mandated handicap improvement which have been USED BY NOBODY. The waste caused by the madatory remodling (pre existing buildings) part of the law is in the 10s or 100s of bilions.

At the grocery store, I leave my shooping cart in the nearest hadicap parking space.

 

[Iroquois]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola:
I have spent around $60,000 on mandated handicap improvement which have been USED BY NOBODY. The waste caused by the madatory remodling (pre existing buildings) part of the law is in the 10s or 100s of bilions.

At the grocery store, I leave my shooping cart in the nearest hadicap parking space. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/tongue.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/devil.gif" border=0>

How considerate of you.



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"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

 

[Leowind]

Lefty, you cannot believe how saddened I am by your response. I understand your frustration at exorbitant business expenses to remodel. I'm not up on the details of the ADA, but it does seem like there should be some sort of compensation or aid for businesses (esp. small businesses) that are being forced to spend $$ to remodel. PLease don't, however, take out your frustration on the disabled. Be angry at big government if you want, but the disabled deserve and need our compassion, not our scorn.

Dreadhead, if you don't mind my asking, and this is rather personal so don't feel like you have to answer, but what is your disability? I don't remember anything from your pic in the "this is me" thread. I would never have guessed you were disabled in some way had you not said something.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Leowind:
PLease don't, however, take out your frustration on the disabled.

You assume the disabled (specifically mobility impaired) are the main users of the handicap parking places. In reality here, 70% of those who use them are not so impaired, using other person's decals or fraudulently obtained decals. I am more mobility impaired with chronic foot problems that give me some pain than all but a handful of those I have seen using the reserved spaces, many of them looking more like atheletes than impaired. Even with this high rate of fraudulent use the vastly overnumbered handicap spaces mandated by the laws are vacant and wasted 60% to 80% of the time. There do not seem to be very many really mobility impaired persons out driving since the same impairments commonly limit that ability. More often than I see an impaired person using one of the parking space, I see one using the also availible handicap vans operated by the Bus company which go a a call basis site to site. The parking places are just another useless mandated waste of resources, which should be protested and excoriated along with other government stupidity and waste.

 

[Leowind]

Lefty, if such is the case in your locale, then you have reason to be angry. However, the problem seems to be one of enforcement, not the laws themselves. As a more pro-active answer to this problem, why not report abusers rather than leave carts in the spaces so that those who truly do need them (even if only 30% of the users) cannot? I know here in Eugene volunteers actually patrol some lots and cite abusers, with real fines. Surely there is something similar where you are, or at least some place abusers could be reported to? Or is your entire community so anti-disabled that such attitudes pervade the agencies entrusted to administer these laws? If such is the case, I truly feel sad for you and your community (and might explain why there are so few disabled using services-they've all been scared away or scared home)

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The core of the problem is the excessive number of spaces mandated, producing both the waste and major portion of the disrespect for the law. A part of the non use by mobility impaired person is the availability on the on call haddicap mini bus service, thus rather than being scared off the handicap parking space (not any of that since they are still empty half the time, even with more fradulent users than legit) they get a better deal with the buses which pick them up at their curb and drops them off at the door of the store.

 

[dreadhead7]

Lefty, I'm going to respond here and bring this topic back up because I was asked a specific question, but first, your issue:

I have a lot of respect for you, but I am disturbed at your attitude. It seems you got a really raw deal, and now you have this animosity towards folks with disabilities. Had I know you at the time you spent all of that money, I could have given you information that could have saved you a bundle, AND I would have given you the number of some governmental agencies that could have helped you with cost. You might have even qualified for an exemption. I was the ADA specialist at my job with the ILC. Well, too late now, but I'm really sad about your attitude.
Let me state some things that I feel strongly about. Remember, I'm relating to you as a person with a disability.

I DO NOT WANT SPECIAL RIGHTS!
I do, however, want the basic civil rights that you enjoy. I want to be able to go from point A to point B just like you. I want to live in my community and contribute to it, just like you. I want to work and provide for my family, just as you do. Think of someone you love. Would you want them to live life as a second class citizen? Would you want someone treating your loved one as if they were undeserving of life? What if YOU suddenly became disabled? How would you view life then?
I resent people who seem to think that we folks with disabilities have it easier or better than all the rest. I believe that you, Lefty, made a point about us having it better because we get door-to-door service. Let me assure you that this is NOT what I want. In fact, under the ADA, I am NOT qualified to use paratransit because I can get to a regular bus stop. I WANT to ride the bus and do things like everyone else. I fought for my right to ride the regular bus and wait out in the elements just like everyone else. I can also assure you that the door-to-door sevice, if you can call it that, is totally undependable. That service is strictly for people whose disabilities prevent them from getting to a bus stop, or who live more that one mile from a regular bus stop.
Another thing people gripe about is disabled folk getting reduced rate for certain things. Thogh I don't take the special rate, I do see why it's in place. People with disabilities are among the poorest, and frequently can't afford the regualr rates for things. The answer to this would to allow people with disabilities to work real jobs with real pay. Then, that kind of special handling can cease.
Another thing that gets to me is how some folks do everything they can to keep people with disabilities down, then, moan about disabled folks living off the system. I believe that if there were equal (NOT SPECIAL) rights, this would change.

I don't know if I want to say more, because I'll only get more frustrated. It's difficult to educate sometimes because negative views are so entrenched in the minds of most of mainstream society. Understand that I am coming from the viewpoint of a person who has suffered, but channed the anger into something positive. I simply get tired, sometimes, of defending my right to exist.

Btw, Leowind, I am almost totally blind from birth. I also have epilepsy. Four years ago, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis (MS). I can walk short distances of a few feet, but because I fall and get hurt all the time, I use a wheelchair.



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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Just where above have you seen any hostility toward the disabled? Every comment I have made has been directed toward government and waste: mandated handicap remodeling used by no one (and no, it was not cost effective to get exemptions, the delay, time, paperwork, and effort connected with those application {routinely denied by the bureaucrats in this area) would have cost more than the improvements, this known from experience); empty and pirated parking areas, wasted land and constructing (with associated paperwork costs and bureaucracy. Here in SA the "Via Trans" curb to door service appear to be more available than in your city. In any case the handicap are making about a 15% to 20% use of the allotted parking space, a clear waste mandated by the government (and the commonly but not as often require too many overall parking places, paving over what could be green space.) The only comment above that might be though hostile to the statutory protected class was the shopping cart one, but taken in context with the rest it is a protest against the waste and the pirates, most of which use fraudulently obtained placards and will not be ticketed. The largest cost in Texas in construction was delay. Before ADA building permitting took 1 to 3 months. For the first 2 years when ada improvements had to be approved it 6 to 9 months, exemptions longer. This alone over that period is billions in waste. Part of this was political. New democratic governor, Ann Richards, wanted to pad the state payroll with allies (eventually she managed to increase the state payroll by 30,000 bureaucrats. She centralized ADA part of permitting at the state level, and her new department was totally inept.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Reading parts of your post again with the thread above it appears that you are erroneusly associating me with some comments made by Fearless Leader.
As for my outlook, keep in mind my strong libertarian bent, I am not happy with a lot of government actions, and I am highly contemptuous of how they can up the execution of almost any concept, however good originally.

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Gauis Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pedanticus
Older, richer, and wiser than you.
Did I mention that I love the spellchecker?

 

[dreadhead7]

Hey Lefty, I reread things, and I owe you an apology. I mixed up some things that Fearless said and a comment that you made, and I reacted, so I humbly apologize.

Yes, the situation is a lot different here. Denver was voted the most accessible city in the country by the President's Committee on Employment of Persons with Disabilities. The public transit system (bus and light rail) is 100% lift equipped, so most folks with disabilities who rely on public transit use the regular bus, instead of paratransit. There are upwards of 80,000 folks with mobility impairments in the Denver metropolitan area alone, so most public places are accessible and it's pretty easy to get around in Denver if you use a wheelchair. In fact, Denver has been a Mecca for people with disabilities for about twenty years. It's not perfect, of course, but pretty close; it's a lot better than in some cities that I've lived in. Plus, Denver has a very strong and active disability rights community which has worked with businesses, agencies, and government to educate them on disability issues.

I understand your feelings about the government, Lefty. It certainly seems that the government can lay to waste the best-laid plans of mice and men.

But, it's a sad comment on our society that it takes the government to enact laws to guarantee the basic civil rights of all of it's citizens, so I guess we need the government after all, though I do wish that it wasn't so intrusive at times.


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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

cool

 

[GP]

I worked as mechanical engineer (building design). ADA has cost a heck of a lot of money on remodels. I wonder if this was fairly disclosed and owned up to when the law was passed?

 

[dreadhead7]

I was the ADA specialist for an Independent Living Center. It was my job to explain to businesses and agencies what the ADA was, and how they could be in compliance. One of the things that I did was refer people to contractors who could do remodeling and the like for low cost. I also let people know about hardship exemptions and subsidies. We would go through neighborhoods and do accessibility surveys. Often, people would call us for advice. As a person with a disability, I tell folks--accessibility and accommodations don't have to be expensive. For example, instead of spending $500 to build an elaborate ramp, spend $50 instead, and build a simple granite or wooden ramp. If you've got 8 steps up to your door, it's going to be difficult, if not impossible to make that place accessible, unless you have LOTS of money, and still, it may not be feasible.

You have to realize that though no one wanted the ADA, people did stand to gain. The contractors and others who ripped off people by scaring them about it certainly did gain, and the government didn't help matters at all. Of course, it's people with disabilities who got the backlash.

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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

A large part of the waste involved with remodeling was not the construction cost but the bureaucracy and delay and additional paperwork. Exemption were rarely practical, it cost more in engineer time, owner time, and delay to get a exemption than to do the work . The delay in getting permits and inspections for the work had enormous costs, billions in Texas alone. The average time for getting a small building (less than 10,000 sq ft) finished from starting design to being occupied nearly doubled

The first real effect of the ADA was the closing of 60% of business bathrooms to customer and clients. Only some businesses like restaurants are required to have bathrooms for customer use. The majority of business bathroom could be restricted to employees. If they were closed to the customers and public, they would only need to be remolded after there was a actually handicapped employee at the business. Voila, the public is locked out without a pot to piss in.

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Gauis Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pedanticus
Older, richer, and wiser than you.
Did I mention that I love the spellchecker?