Add Religious Victory?

[citis]

The only way to win early is through UHV. Adding a second option seems very good to me.

 

[The Diocletian]

Probably why I don't like this idea. UHVs, with all respect to Leoreth and Rhye, are just "fulfill three goals and win wooo". Most UHVs lock you into a certain way of playing: and I hate that. URVs are no different.

 

[Hippo8085]

Most UHVs lock you into a certain way of playing: and I hate that.

And it is entirely your choice as to whether or not you let this happen.

I quite like this idea. In general people will not play just to win. Either they will have their own goals or have a specific victory type in mind. This gives another set of standard goals to strive for and win in that fashion, so if it does not mean too much work except for code, I am all for it.

 

[The Diocletian]

And it is entirely your choice as to whether or not you let this happen.

Well... no, not really. Goals inevitably make you play a certain way in order to win them. Say a UHV requires me have X resources. I would not normally try and obtain these resources, because the situation I'm in does not make me want these resources, much less X of them. In order to complete this goal, I must go out of my way to trade and capture those resources. My goals and objectives for the game are essentially decided for me, which I find to be an absolute bore.

Oh, I need X gold by Y date? Turn slider to zero for a majority of the game. In most games you would never do this, (binary research aside) but you must in order to complete the goal.

Saying you must not play a certain way to finish predetermined goals is just outright absurd.

 

[Hightower]

Well... no, not really. Goals inevitably make you play a certain way in order to win them. Say a UHV requires me have X resources. I would not normally try and obtain these resources, because the situation I'm in does not make me want these resources, much less X of them. In order to complete this goal, I must go out of my way to trade and capture those resources. My goals and objectives for the game are essentially decided for me, which I find to be an absolute bore.

Oh, I need X gold by Y date? Turn slider to zero for a majority of the game. In most games you would never do this, (binary research aside) but you must in order to complete the goal.

Saying you must not play a certain way to finish predetermined goals is just outright absurd.

What's "usual" is mostly defined by victory conditions. No one would bother with researching all the way to the near-end of the tech tree if it didn't enable a Space Race victory. And a game played with a Conquest victory in mind often involves razing a lot of cities that you might rather keep in order to prevent Domination--and also involves building way more troops, and transporting them much further, than you would if you sought to win peacefully.

UHVs are just another way to win. And in DoC it's still perfectly plausible to win by at least some conventional ways (and some people have even difficult done things like win a Mandinka Domination or Khmer Space Race) rather than go for the UHVs.

 

[The Diocletian]

What's "usual" is mostly defined by victory conditions. No one would bother with researching all the way to the near-end of the tech tree if it didn't enable a Space Race victory. And a game played with a Conquest victory in mind often involves razing a lot of cities that you might rather keep in order to prevent Domination--and also involves building way more troops, and transporting them much further, than you would if you sought to win peacefully.

UHVs are just another way to win. And in DoC it's still perfectly plausible to win by at least some conventional ways (and some people have even difficult done things like win a Mandinka Domination or Khmer Space Race) rather than go for the UHVs.

Did I mention I also hate Space Race and Culture? Pretty much anything that provides a goal without a whole lot of open-endedness is boring for me. I like domination for it's challenging aspect, and the multiple ways of achieving it. Yes, it is still essentially a goal, but it is an open-ended goal.

 

[BenZL43]

That's just how RFC and DoC works. If you doesn't like how UHV is designed, don't play RFC or DoC or anything similar

If you don't like Space Race or Culture victory either, you can still aim for Time, Domination, Diplomacy, or Conquest victory... if you doesn't like all of that as well, don't play Civilization IV

 

[calad]

And you don't need to even aim to victory. I usually don't win any victories but games are very enjoyable.

Anyway I recommend this as an event like golden age of our religion. It would be like a minor goal then.

 

[Jusos2108]

I also think it's a very bad idea...there are already many civs uhv that deals appropriately with religion.

Have you played SoI? URVs only add another way to win and thus increase replayabilty and gameplay overall. So what if there are some UHVs with religion goals? The game is supposed to be fun, don't get too cranky about it.

Probably why I don't like this idea. UHVs, with all respect to Leoreth and Rhye, are just "fulfill three goals and win wooo". Most UHVs lock you into a certain way of playing: and I hate that. URVs are no different.

Except URVs change, if you change your state religion. And UHVs or URVs do not lock the way to play the civ, the player does.

 

[The Diocletian]

That's just how RFC and DoC works. If you doesn't like how UHV is designed, don't play RFC or DoC or anything similar

If you don't like Space Race or Culture victory either, you can still aim for Time, Domination, Diplomacy, or Conquest victory... if you doesn't like all of that as well, don't play Civilization IV

All I play DoC for is Domination, incidentally.

I suppose I can't object to URV's inclusion into the mod if it doesn't take too much time to add.

 

[Hightower]

Did I mention I also hate Space Race and Culture? Pretty much anything that provides a goal without a whole lot of open-endedness is boring for me. I like domination for it's challenging aspect, and the multiple ways of achieving it. Yes, it is still essentially a goal, but it is an open-ended goal.

How is Domination more open-ended than Space Race? If anything it's less open-ended, since you have to focus on military expansion most of the entire time, whereas Space Race just requires that you just play the game aimlessly for 95% of the time then sprint to the finish.

 

[The Diocletian]

since you have to focus on military expansion most of the entire time

Depends on how you play. You can monopolize of the great land in America (key to many domination victories) without need for conquest. Also depends on the civ. Civs like Russia can expand with no real resistance, while, say, the Spanish, either have to focus on the New World or rough up their neighbors.

play the game aimlessly for 95% of the time then sprint to the finish.

The definition of boooooring.

Maybe I like domination because it requires a decent amount of planning and forethought. It requires inqut from the user. Space and culture is essentially "tech fast build culture buildings press end turn". No real inqut

 

[The Diocletian]

since you have to focus on military expansion most of the entire time

Depends on how you play. You can monopolize of the great land in America (key to many domination victories) without need for conquest. Also depends on the civ. Civs like Russia can expand with no real resistance, while, say, the Spanish, either have to focus on the New World or rough up their neighbors.

play the game aimlessly for 95% of the time then sprint to the finish.

The definition of boooooring.

Maybe I like domination because it requires a decent amount of planning and forethought. It requires inqut from the user. Space and culture is essentially "tech fast build culture buildings press end turn". No real input

 

[Leoreth]

URV suggestions:

Some religions have alternatives and few lack names.


Hinduism:
-The Golden Age: Have at least 24 turn Golden Age.
-Castes: Settle one type of every GP in the Hindu Holy city
-Have more than 500 million pop

Buddhism:
-Have friendly relatioship with at least three Buddhist States
-Build one Buddhist Stupa on every continent.
-Nirvana: Have no furious or annoyed relationship with any civ.

Zoroastrianism:
-Shahnameh: Control the Sassanid Empire
-Ahura Mazda: Be at peace for 100 turns
-Spread Zoroastrianism to 20% of world pop.

Confucianism:
-Humanism: Have friendly realtionship with at least five civs
-Harmony: Control Confucian and Tao Shrines and combine their profit to 40gpt
-The Five Classics: Settle five Great People in the Confucian Holy City.

Taoism:
-Make sure that at least two other civs have Taoism as state religion.
-Three treasures: Have at least three Great Wonders in the Tao Holy City.
-Immortality: Have legendary culture in the Tao Holy City.

Catholic:
-Crusade: Control the Jerusalem and Rome (Or make sure that the Catholic Holy City generates more than 200gpt)
-One Church: Vassalise three (or more?) civs with different religion
-One Faith: Spread Catholicism to 50% of world pop and ensure that Orthodoxy and Protestantism combine for less than 10%

Orthodox:
-Four Patriarchates: Build four Orthdodox cathedrals of which two have to be in Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople or Antiochia (Sur).
-Holy Icons: Control all christian shrines and the Apostolic Palace
-First church: Ensure that there are no Catholic civs.

Protestantism:
-Religious freedom: Ensure that half of all civs are either Secular or run Protestantism
-Build 20 universities
-Enlightment: Be the first civ to finish the tech tree

Islam:
-Islamic dominance: Control five Shrines (Or have five vassals)
-Twelve imams: Settle twelve Great Prophets in cities under Islamic rule (Or settle one type of every GP in the Islamic Holy city)
-Jihad: Spread Islam to 50%

Oh wow, these are great. I already want to start implementing this. Some things might be tweaked a little but I like that they are challenging, diverse and all capture a different facet of gameplay that suit the respective religions.

Most UHVs lock you into a certain way of playing: and I hate that. URVs are no different.

I think that's exactly the interesting thing about UHVs: many of them challenge you to play the game differently to what you're used to from the other victory conditions. You have to develop new strategies that are useless for other goals.

But as others have said, if you don't like them, you don't have to do them, and play for one of the other conditions instead. URVs wouldn't be different.

I also don't think that URVs conflict with UHVs as long as they're different from the religious UHV goals so that you cannot accidentally complete your URV when playing for UHV and vice versa. As far as I can tell, Jusos's suggestions meet this condition.

 

[NKN]

I also don't think that URVs conflict with UHVs as long as they're different from the religious UHV goals so that you cannot accidentally complete your URV when playing for UHV and vice versa. As far as I can tell, Jusos's suggestions meet this condition.

Except for Protestantism, which is too similar to Germany.

 

[Jusos2108]

Oh wow, these are great. I already want to start implementing this. Some things might be tweaked a little but I like that they are challenging, diverse and all capture a different facet of gameplay that suit the respective religions.

Good to hear!

 

[The Diocletian]

I do have to hand it to you, Jusos, even though I don't like goals like UHVs, they sound pretty fun. Hats off to you.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Did I mention I also hate Space Race and Culture? Pretty much anything that provides a goal without a whole lot of open-endedness is boring for me. I like domination for it's challenging aspect, and the multiple ways of achieving it. Yes, it is still essentially a goal, but it is an open-ended goal.

Space is great. I usually convert failed Domination victories into Space ones.

And I was initially incredibly ambivalent towards Religious victories, but oh man,
Jusos's ideas for them are incredible. I wholeheartedly support .

 

[The Diocletian]

I dunno, maybe it's the way I play, but space is essentially teching to the parts and building them. Unless you're a really backyard civ, there isn't a big challenge to it.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

URV suggestions:

Some religions have alternatives and few lack names.


Hinduism:
-The Golden Age: Have at least 24 turn Golden Age.
-Castes: Settle one type of every GP in the Hindu Holy city
-Have more than 500 million pop

Buddhism:
-Have friendly relatioship with at least three Buddhist States
-Build one Buddhist Stupa on every continent.
-Nirvana: Have no furious or annoyed relationship with any civ.

Zoroastrianism:
-Shahnameh: Control the Sassanid Empire
-Ahura Mazda: Be at peace for 100 turns
-Spread Zoroastrianism to 20% of world pop.

Confucianism:
-Humanism: Have friendly realtionship with at least five civs
-Harmony: Control Confucian and Tao Shrines and combine their profit to 40gpt
-The Five Classics: Settle five Great People in the Confucian Holy City.

Taoism:
-Make sure that at least two other civs have Taoism as state religion.
-Three treasures: Have at least three Great Wonders in the Tao Holy City.
-Immortality: Have legendary culture in the Tao Holy City.

Catholic:
-Crusade: Control the Jerusalem and Rome (Or make sure that the Catholic Holy City generates more than 200gpt)
-One Church: Vassalise three (or more?) civs with different religion
-One Faith: Spread Catholicism to 50% of world pop and ensure that Orthodoxy and Protestantism combine for less than 10%

Orthodox:
-Four Patriarchates: Build four Orthdodox cathedrals of which two have to be in Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople or Antiochia (Sur).
-Holy Icons: Control all christian shrines and the Apostolic Palace
-First church: Ensure that there are no Catholic civs.

Protestantism:
-Religious freedom: Ensure that half of all civs are either Secular or run Protestantism
-Build 20 universities
-Enlightment: Be the first civ to finish the tech tree

Islam:
-Islamic dominance: Control five Shrines (Or have five vassals)
-Twelve imams: Settle twelve Great Prophets in cities under Islamic rule (Or settle one type of every GP in the Islamic Holy city)
-Jihad: Spread Islam to 50%

For the Victories that involve controlling or having something (cities, vassals, gps, money, etc) is that for you or for all civs of that religion?

Ex: Does "Control Jerusalem and Rome" mean YOU must control them or CATHOLICS must control them?

And I really love your ideas, and it looks like Leoreth will implement them, so that is good!