Admirable Losers

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Erich von Manstein

I think it depends on your definition of "losing" a battle. Much of the second half of the war, Manstein was conducting (or at least trying to) an elastic defense, which involves by nature giving ground and withdrawing. The only real battle I can think of him losing outright was Kursk, even though his individual units performed better than expected. He was also not the supreme commander at Kursk, either.

 

[Yeekim]

John Brown could be considered an admirable loser. Sure, he was a major contributing factor towards the US Civil War, but he died due to doing something that he thought was right, and was a hero to the North.

I believe a certain US president called the man " a misguided fanatic"...

 

[Camikaze]

I believe a certain US president called the man " a misguided fanatic"...

Nevertheless, the Union still sang 'John Brown's Body', which includes the verse:

John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave,
And Kansas knows his valor when he fought her rights to save;
Now, tho the grass grows green above his grave,
His soul is marching on.

I've always wondered how, with 20 kids, he managed to find time to do any 'revolutioning'.

 

[Bugfatty300]

He was also a cold blooded murderer but to each his own I guess.

 

[Dodge_272]

Constantine XI; a tragic hero.

 

[silver 2039]

He was also a cold blooded murderer but to each his own I guess.

Killing people taking part in an abomination and a crime against humanity is fully justified. John Brown is a hero a martyr and a freedom fighter.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Killing people taking part in an abomination and a crime against humanity is fully justified. John Brown is a hero a martyr and a freedom fighter.

The first person his raiders killed at Harper's Ferry was a free black man. I wonder how many slaves that guy owned? James P. Doyle and his two sons who Brown and his fellow religious wackos kidnapped and subsequently hacked to death didn't own slaves either.

 

[silver 2039]

The first person his raiders killed at Harper's Ferry was a free black man. I wonder how many slaves that guy owned? James P. Doyle and his two sons who Brown and his fellow religious wackos kidnapped and subsequently hacked to death didn't own slaves either.

All Southerners were fair game. They supported directly or indirectly the institution of slavery and allowed it to persist. Some must die to destroy a greater evil. And I'm not a person who uses the word evil lightly.

 

[Bugfatty300]

All Southerners were fair game. They supported directly or indirectly the institution of slavery and allowed it to persist.

I suppose that includes President Lincoln and his vice president both being Southerners and all.

 

[Dachs]

Calling Lincoln a Southerner is pushing it at best. Kentucky isn't really even in the South.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Calling Lincoln a Southerner is pushing it at best. Kentucky isn't really even in the South.

Geographically debatable however KY (and West Virginia) is culturally southern. Historically, it was a slave owning state during and after the Civil War and provided dozens of regiments to the Confederate armies. I don't see how you could not view Kentucky as a part of the cultural south.

The only thing I can think of is that KY didn't succeed from the US and West Virgina literally succeeded from the Confederacy to form it's own state. But more to the point that not all southerners were pro-slavery or pro-succession despite what Silver believes.

 

[Dachs]

Northern Virginia is culturally southern? Whoever made that map is using MS Paint out of his ass.

 

[Bugfatty300]

And how could I forget! The president of the Confederacy himself was also born in KY, barely 100 miles form Lincoln's birth place. Would it be a stretch to call Jefferson Davis a Southerner? I doubt it.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

How is Virginia and Kentucky NOT part of the South? I thought everything below the Mason Dixon Line was part of the South.

 

[privatehudson]

Many Civil War personalities were born in one place and associated with another. Hood for example was another native of Kentucky but his name was always connected with Texas due to him leading the famous Texas Brigade, and if James E Kelly's memoirs are much of a guide quite a few Northern states tried to claim Sherman as one of its sons at some point.

The argument that Lincoln was a southerner is weak for a few reasons. First he hadn't lived in Kentucky since he was 7, as far as I know after that he lived in either Illinois or Indiana. Although he retained some ties to Kentucky, for example via his wife's family I don't think he spent any great length of time there or anywhere else in the south for the rest of his life. Just because a state is considered culturally one thing does not mean everyone born there automatically becomes aligned with that culture. Ultimately you have to consider how a historical person was percieved, both by themselves and the people alive at the time. I doubt that anyone North or South during the Civil War fought of him as southern, if you tried suggesting that in Richmond back then you'd be lucky if you were only laughed at.

Further Kentucky was hardly only south as you imply since more of its natives fought for the Union than the Confederacy (see link below) and even Magoffin and his supporters didn't feel enough sympathy for the cause to actually secede, perhaps recognising that the populace was deeply divided and trying to sit on the fence.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kylawren/LCM_CW_Re_KY.htm

None of this means by the way that I agree with the "shoot all southerners" argument. I don't hold much admiration for Brown, he may have had a good cause in abolitionism but his efforts on its behalf were ill thought out and caused nothing but trouble.

 

[Dachs]

How is Virginia and Kentucky NOT part of the South? I thought everything below the Mason Dixon Line was part of the South.

Maryland is in the South too?

 

[silver 2039]

But more to the point that not all southerners were pro-slavery or pro-succession despite what Silver believes.

Does it matter? Do you shed a tear for all the poor Japanese and German civilians who died in carpet bombings of World War II? Sometimes colletral damage is necessary.

John Brown's intentions were good, and he was fully justified in taking action against what was a disgusting blight on the United States even at the time. He was one of the factors that sparked the civil war. That is not a bad thing. Indeed I say that is a good thing. If the civil war had been delayed longer or not happened at all who knows if the institution of slavery would have been annihilated. By martyring himself for his cause John Brown helped bring about its end, and for that should be admired and respected as a moral man, a hero, and a freedom fighter.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Maryland is in the South too?

Um yes? We were kept in the Union by occupation and illegal imprisonment. Many of the southern counties either actively or passively aided the Rebellion. One of the biggest reasons they put that huge POW camp at Point Lookout was to give a greater troop presence in St. Mary's County to keep the local populace from running arms and information across the river!

Even today, most of Maryland outside of the counties between DC and Baltimore are culturally Southern.

 

[privatehudson]

I thought it depended on which part of the state of Maryland was being discussed and that the people of Maryland like the other border states can't be simply lumped into one side or the other. Something like 60,000 Marylanders did serve in the Northern armies after all (more than twice the number serving in the Southern forces), and when Lee marched through the state in 1862 only a few hundred extra men flocked to the colours.

 

[silver 2039]

You know the biggest mistake that was made during the whole thing was the failure to adequately punish the South and not treating them like a defeated people. If we had done that successfully we wouldn't have all these Southern apologists today. The penalty for treason is death, the whole bunch of them should have been shot, hanged, imprisoned, and stripped of their voting rights particularly the generals, commanders, officers, and government officials, and state officials. Yeah that's right essentially a purge. That's how you deal with rebels and traitors.

The South should have then been kept under military occupation and Republican rule until the turn of the century. That would have stamped all the nonsense out of them. The failure to do this. Now that's the real tragedy. The Radical Republicans had the right idea. Too bad they couldn't fully implement their program. The US today would be a lot better place.