Aelf's thread reloaded

[Zanttu]

If Darius starts spamming archers, lure them out to the open and kill them. If you move your units 2-3 tiles away from the city, the AI will send its offensive stack out and you can run by them towards the city (yes, the new AI still has issues with that old trick).

Or possibly try to use a worker as a bait.. That should reduce the amount of defenders by 1 also.

 

[The Rook]

Rook - I agree. I was responding to the suggestions for the Oracle-Feudalism gambit on the first page. I probably should have make a clear reference to that in my post.

Stone + Philosophical does encourage the pyramids but from what we've seen of the map so far it's not exactly food-rich.
There are a lot of plains tiles and not a lot of irrigation. A few lakes and a river through the capital.
Since ungy is mostly planning to run a SE anyways, Representation is great for that. I'd be a lot more enthusiastic about it if stone was in the first ring of a good second city site, or if there was a good food tile in the first ring as well. As it stands he'd need to work a mediocre tile for ~8 turns to get to pop 2, then whip a totem pole and wait another 10 turns before starting on a quarry - which takes 6+ turns IIRC.

It's not out of the question, but it's not a no brainer on whether or not he jumps at the stone and pyramids.

I fully agree (hence my original "if" in quotations). As you point out, there are not really any fantastic city sites to the east, and since we can probably expand in that direction at our leisure, west/south west should be a higher priority. We will need 500 culture from the capital to absorb the stone, and if we don't have any religion or additional culture buildings, that could take a while.

I find it very difficult to predict when the AI is likely build the Pyramids at this level, sometimes it seems to occur pre-1000BC, but there have been occasions when it still hasn't been built post AD. The one good thing about building with stone is if you are beaten you at least get wealth*2.

 

[futurehermit]

Yep, looks like a dog soldier/chariot rush is the way to go here. I'd wager pretty good money that Darius's capital will make an excellent gpfarm (Gl/NE, etc.). Then you can expand at your leisure while beelining optics (lightbulbing where possible) to open up some overseas trading.

My .02$

 

[The Rook]

Oof... Darius didn't waste any time.

 

[The Rook]

Yep, looks like a dog soldier/chariot rush is the way to go here.

Yes, a chariot or 2 could be useful to scout the terrain whilst preparing the rush, hopefully you could pillage any strategic resources Darius might have quickly after you declare.

 

[futurehermit]

Chariots are also good for softening up defenders. Just give them flanking and they have a good chance to withdraw. They are also cheaper than dog soldiers afaik which makes them more appealing suicide troops.

 

[The Rook]

Chariots are also good for softening up defenders. Just give them flanking and they have a good chance to withdraw. They are also cheaper than dog soldiers afaik which makes them more appealing suicide troops.

True. Both have their advantages. Chariots are faster and cheaper. Dog Soldiers have CR promotions and are eligible for the 2 pop whip. I suppose the power of these units may at least partially depend on what Darius has in defence (Spearmen?Chariots?).

 

[ungy]

As for rush strategy, I think we're still pretty early. I've got 2 workers chopping so I should get an army out pretty quick.
My plan is to do my best to get a look at Persopolis before the border pop then when I declare just march my entire stack to Persopolis. Nothing fancy.
I may pillage the pigs if it won't cost me a tempo.
If I get the capital I think I'm still early enough that there will be little further resistance. I think then get a settler out and build the stone city and try for the 'mids--there should still be a chance to get it.

What I don't want to do is find myself in a protracted war with an ai that whips archers in the capital.

 

[ungy]

True. Both have their advantages. Chariots are faster and cheaper. Dog Soldiers have CR promotions and are eligible for the 2 pop whip. I suppose the power of these units may at least partially depend on what Darius has in defence (Spearmen?Chariots?).

I'm hoping I'm early enough that it's just archers. My plan is to build chariots--cheaper, move 2, and chance to withdraw. True the promos aren't as good but the first one is just as good and the game plan is an all or nothing first attack. If he has horse he'll build immortals--that's OK--they do get defensive bonus but no big trouble.

 

[ungy]

Just give them flanking and they have a good chance to withdraw.

I'm not a big fan of flanking--esp flanking 1 for this rush. We need to do max damage the first time out.

 

[Jet]

ungy, do you mean you'll walk your stack around Pasagarde before declaring? That does sound like a good idea. You can get it later, maybe even flip it.

 

[ungy]

ungy, do you mean you'll walk your stack around Pasagarde before declaring? That does sound like a good idea. You can get it later, maybe even flip it.

No Persopolis is to the S of Pasargadae 1 SW of the southern pig so I just ignore Pasargadae.

 

[ungy]

Or possibly try to use a worker as a bait.. That should reduce the amount of defenders by 1 also.

That is an idea although unfortunately my route will be over the pigs on the hill which likely will have a road on it. While one hates to burn a precious worker for that it's clearly worth it--we should recover 2 workers if we can eliminate Darius. I'll bring along a warrior if they both survive--maybe there will be an opportunity there. I'll have a worker in the area to road for the attack--I'll keep the idea in mind.

 

[futurehermit]

I'm not a big fan of flanking--esp flanking 1 for this rush. We need to do max damage the first time out.

I'm not saying that you want to give your whole stack flanking, I'm just saying check your odds. If they're less than 50%, give your unit flanking. It's going to die anyways, might as well give it a better chance to withdraw and live--and still do damage. Then once the defenders are softened up, mop them up with combat chariots. I thought this was standard practice

 

[ungy]

I'm not saying that you want to give your whole stack flanking, I'm just saying check your odds. If they're less than 50%, give your unit flanking. It's going to die anyways, might as well give it a better chance to withdraw and live--and still do damage. Then once the defenders are softened up, mop them up with combat chariots. I thought this was standard practice

Actually not really.
The combat mechanics are complicated and there are some good threads (but I don't remember exactly where). If I remember correctly combat is broken down into rounds, with the victor in each round doing some damage. How much depends on the relative strengths of the units, and there are some break points in terms of getting a total kill. But essentially getting a little more strength gets you more chance to win, as well as doing more damage on average in a loss. Both are important, as getting a little more damage helps follow on battes a lot and getting lucky on a long shot in this case pretty much locks the whole thing up.
The advantage for flanking is an extra 10% chance to withdraw--so if 10 chariots die attacking with flanking you have 2 survive instead of 1. But in this case the big picture is that we most likely have to win the first round and how many units survive is secondary.
So I would say flanking is marginal for chariots in any case. Now for cav, since you can get flanking 2 out of the gate, you take survival from 30% to 50%--a much better improvement and you knock out the FS.

 

[BurN]

I fully agree (hence my original "if" in quotations). As you point out, there are not really any fantastic city sites to the east, and since we can probably expand in that direction at our leisure, west/south west should be a higher priority. We will need 500 culture from the capital to absorb the stone, and if we don't have any religion or additional culture buildings, that could take a while.

I find it very difficult to predict when the AI is likely build the Pyramids at this level, sometimes it seems to occur pre-1000BC, but there have been occasions when it still hasn't been built post AD. The one good thing about building with stone is if you are beaten you at least get wealth*2.

Couple of days ago I ran a few test games on immortal/deity to check on wonder completion. With all ind civs and placed stone into every capital, +- 1400-1200BC for mids. But that's unlikely to happen and it might be even more slower in bts cause of the gw?

Anyways if he plans on getting sh+mids it's very doable from this position. Chop second worker, chop settler, place junk city for stone and it's pretty much 100% sh+mids succes. Tbh if I was given this spot I would go for sh/mids, but to each his own playstyle I guess.

But from how the game looks atm, putting hammers into military rather then mids seems obvious. War should be pretty easy looking at how close the enemy capital is. So many forest in ungy's capital, you can crank out an army in no time.
You could scout north/west up the river for a possible 2nd city if you decide to do so before attacking. If a food resource is around there, there's plenty of hills in that area so it would possibly be a good prod city.

edit: I'd agree with ungy on not taking flank

 

[futurehermit]

Interesting, well I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Maybe I'll stop going with flanking 1 with chariots, but I always felt like if my unit is bound to die, additional chance of survivability can save some hammers and seeing some top players do the same kind of solidified that hunch for me. However, if this different approach pans out then I'll have learned something, which I generally do every day on these forums

 

[aelf]

Oops, I just posted asking if there's interest in a new Immortal Challenge. But no matter - we can have a double-barrelled shotgun

 

[futurehermit]

Nothing wrong with that

 

[MyOtherName]

Interesting, well I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Maybe I'll stop going with flanking 1 with chariots, but I always felt like if my unit is bound to die, additional chance of survivability can save some hammers and seeing some top players do the same kind of solidified that hunch for me. However, if this different approach pans out then I'll have learned something, which I generally do every day on these forums

Ask yourself "what do I hope to gain from promotions?" -- if the answer is "minimize losses", then you'd want flanking to soften up defenders. If the answer is "win one particular battle at all costs", then you'd prefer the combat promotions.

If they go in and find they have overwhelming forces, I would agree with you, and flanking should be used to soften the defenders... but I get the feeling they don't expect to have overwhelming force.