Afonso I of Kongo

[Stringer1313]

Given the speculation that he's in the game based on the leader portraits I thought it might be worth a separate thread for comments on that. Based solely on reading Wikipedia and having close to zero knowledge about major African civilizations and leaders, I would be disappointed if he were the choice. Based solely on Wikipedia, it seems that all he did adopt and incorporate a foreign religion from a European power which he was at the mercy of, and he seemed to constantly grovel before Portugal and beg them (unsuccessfully it seems) to stop trading his people as slaves. It would be in poor taste to have a rare African leader in this game whose main accomplishment is being subjugated by a European power.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It is kind of mystifying considering Anna Nzinga would have been a way better Big Personality choice.

 

[Krajzen]

It is completely insane for me that he is going to be in game instead of Nzinga.
She is very famous, very interesting, very characteristic, succesfull, legendary and female. Yeah she wasn't exactly ruler of Kingdom of Kongo but of one of neighboring kingdoms, but this should not be any concern for firaxis given much more ahistorical leaders im the past games (Iceni Boudicca leading Celts, Hawaiian Kame leading Polynesia, wife of Justinian lonely ruling Byzantium, ruler of singular city state ruling entire Maya civ, Alexander with capital in Athens!...)

what is wrong with you firaxis? You waste perfect female character opportunity and instead give France ridiculous Medici as leader?

Does every civ game needs to have some terrible civs and leaders? "Native american" conglomerate, joan of arc, maria the insane of portugal, stalin/mao, gandhi and now medici instead of nzinga? Why firaxis, why?

To add insult to injury, Nzinga would speak in Kongolese but Afonso will probably speak in Portuguese (he even has alien name). Firaxis is crazy about political correctness when it doesn't need to be (token female characters a la maria) and simultaneously manages to be almost insulting in another areas (india 'overpopulation' trait and 'fast worker' unit, for example)

Seriously I love firaxis games themselves but I have very mixed feelings about their historical research. It's a decades spanning fight with a specific kind of Western ignorance

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I actually consider Catherine de Medici a rather bold choice. She ruled France de facto and was not a person to be meddled with. I doubt I will enjoy being her neighbor, but I like that she was selected.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Their female leader choices have not been the best possible. Scandinavian countries, Ethiopia, Nubia, Vietnam etc. have great female leaders, but they have never been used in this series. But they have used some ridiculous female leaders just to have female leaders.

Some examples:

Margaret I of Denmark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_I_of_Denmark

Zewditu - Empress of Ethiopia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zewditu

Trung sisters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C6%B0ng_Sisters

 

[DeutschDachs]

After reading about Alfonso he kind of strikes me as a dull choice compared to many other leaders in the game. He basically adopted Portuguese culture while not allowing the country to be ruled by or influenced by Portugal. I mean I guess that's good but not really all that interesting. But I am new to his history so perhaps the text I read didn't give him enough credit

 

[smartcanuck1988]

I actually consider Catherine de Medici a rather bold choice. She ruled France de facto and was not a person to be meddled with. I doubt I will enjoy being her neighbor, but I like that she was selected.

She is featured in Ed Beach's "Virgin Queen" game, perhaps we can get a tiny hint from how she might play in Civ based on that game's designer notes on her: http://www.gmtgames.com/virginqueen/VQ_ScenarioBook.pdf

 

[Hannibal XIII]

Afonso is a pretty great choice, especially considering that Nzinga was a) Mbundu rather than Bakongo, b) the ruler of a sub-kingdom in the Kongolese orbit and c) still eventually got whupped by Portugal. Wikipedia doesn't really give you a full picture of who he was...

That being said, if Afonso speaks Portuguese I will REEEEEEEEEEE very hard.

 

[Zaarin]

I actually consider Catherine de Medici a rather bold choice. She ruled France de facto and was not a person to be meddled with. I doubt I will enjoy being her neighbor, but I like that she was selected.

She would have been an excellent choice--for a DLC. No way does she deserve to be in before Louis "The Biggest Personality in History" XIV.

Afonso is a pretty great choice, especially considering that Nzinga was a) Mbundu rather than Bakongo, b) the ruler of a sub-kingdom in the Kongolese orbit and c) still eventually got whupped by Portugal. Wikipedia doesn't really give you a full picture of who he was...

That being said, if Afonso speaks Portuguese I will REEEEEEEEEEE very hard.

As Krajzen pointed out, none of that need be considered an objection in a game where Boudicca, Joan of Arc, and Gandhi are acceptable choices of leader. Also, wouldn't you expect Afonso to speak Portuguese to be historically accurate, just like Darius spoke Aramaic instead of Old Persian?

 

[Hannibal XIII]

Au contraire, the fact that Civ has included myth-people/composite peoples before -- and continues to include Gandhi and Shaka "Not Even The Greatest Warlord of The Mfecane" Zulu -- means things should improve going forward by not having those things.

Afonso spoke Bakongo -- and Bakongo was used in administration. In fact, the Kongolese tried getting more Capuchin monks from Italy specifically so that they could break out of the Portuguese clerical sphere in Africa.

Darius speaking Aramaic was correct -- because Aramaic was the administrative language of the Achaemenids.

 

[Zaarin]

Darius speaking Aramaic was correct -- because Aramaic was the administrative language of the Achaemenids.

I know that; that was my point. I assumed Portuguese was also the administrative language of Kongo. I've heard of Afonso before but know absolutely nothing about Kongo.

Also, looking at their list, they clearly haven't improved. We still have Gandhi, we still have Gilgamesh (who, to be fair, is only semi-mythical, but still could have been replaced by Ur-Nammu or others of more established historicity), etc...

 

[Stringer1313]

Afonso is a pretty great choice, especially considering that Nzinga was a) Mbundu rather than Bakongo, b) the ruler of a sub-kingdom in the Kongolese orbit and c) still eventually got whupped by Portugal. Wikipedia doesn't really give you a full picture of who he was...

That being said, if Afonso speaks Portuguese I will REEEEEEEEEEE very hard.

Can you cite any non-Wikipedia articles about Afonso that reflect some of his more positive accomplishments?

 

[redwings1340]

Did I miss something? I'm scanning over these forums and youtube for a video I missed, but can't find one. How do we know about this specific leader?

 

[Stringer1313]

Did I miss something? I'm scanning over these forums and youtube for a video I missed, but can't find one. How do we know about this specific leader?

This is based on the leader portraits thread, where people have been speculating on the possible leaders based on a very fuzzy screenshot in Firaxis HQ.

My own view is that even if we are guessing correctly, Firaxis may well have changed a bunch already, and that the posting was very preliminary. At least that's what I'm hoping at least in Afonso's case.

 

[redwings1340]

Oh wow. Well, endless speculation is fun, anyway.

I wonder if Firaxis did this intentionally. You know, if it was intentional, and Ed is reading this, I guess this is a great way to gauge fan reactions to different leaders without officially revealing anything, lol.

 

[OnceAKing]

Did I miss something? I'm scanning over these forums and youtube for a video I missed, but can't find one. How do we know about this specific leader?

Oh boy you're in for a sugar rush http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=570683

I'll reserve judgement because I'm completely ignorant of the Kongo. But I read that same Wikipedia and the moment I read he changed his name by switching to christendom I was cringing. No bueno....
But again, no strong opinion because I don't know anything about him or other leaders of the Kongo

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Oh wow. Well, endless speculation is fun, anyway.

I wonder if Firaxis did this intentionally. You know, if it was intentional, and Ed is reading this, I guess this is a great way to gauge fan reactions to different leaders without officially revealing anything, lol.

Except that it is definitely too late in development to change any of them. All the animation and voice acting will already be complete. Best way to announce them, even if they aren't sure is officially, to make them sound awesome with their uniques and get people excited about their gameplay and seeing the leader move about. This was a mistake, and it's gunna hurt their outside choices now people have a chance to dwell and moan before they see them properly

 

[Morningcalm]

It is very annoying that a golden opportunity for a strong female leader was passed up to place as leader a guy who kowtowed to Portugal in everything except the slave trade.

See Wikipedia entry on Afonso of Kongo:

Virtually all that is known about Kongo in the time of Afonso's reign is known from his long series of letters, written in Portuguese primarily to the kings Manuel I and João III of Portugal. The letters are often very long and give many details about the administration of the country. Many of the letters complain about the behavior of several Portuguese officials, and these letters have given rise to an interpretation of Afonso's reign as one in which Portuguese interests submerged Afonso's ambitions.

Ah yes, clearly a strong leader. One about whom we know anything only through the Portuguese, and one who in vain tried to stop the Portuguese taking advantage of his willingness to invite them to his country.

The Portuguese would go on to fight Kongo for many years to come. For one example of a battle fought against the Portuguese with disastrous result (Kongo's king decapitated, his items sent to Lisbon as trophies), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mbwila

THANKS AFONSO, FOR INVITING THE WOLF TO THE KONGO.

Nzinga of Ndongo and Matamba, we shall mourn your absence! (But seriously, put her as leader of Angola in an expansion.)

 

[Keperry]

Waitwaitwait. Scythians led by Tomyris?! She's right up there on the Badass Female Leaders list with Nzinga. That's awesome.

 

[Makenshi]

Can you cite any non-Wikipedia articles about Afonso that reflect some of his more positive accomplishments?

Sorry for answering a question not directed at me, but this is info that will probably interest everyone here: UNESCO has compiled a collection of 8 tomes called General History of Africa. It is by far the best work ever about the history of Africa, and there is a nice amount of information [likely more than any article out there] about Afonso and his kingdom on the volume V.

The collection if avaliable in .pdf for free in the UNESCO website.