AI All-terrain transport development

[Ahriman]

I have done some autoplays with my local version, which is about to become 1.5.4. The Fremen are in serious trouble.

I wonder if some of this is from being forced to adopt Paradise civic and build catchbasins in every city, and the -3 water kills their economy? Without terraforming, catchbasins are useless, and in your proposed design where terraform rates within your bordrs depend weakly on catchbasins controlled by all civs, rather than strongly on your own catchbasins, catchbasins will still be very weak and the AI will suffer from building them.

I also strongly, strongly suggest that you deactivate the slavery/serfdom/imperial levy whip/drafting for any autoplays, you can get very misleading results without them. Catchbasins also have a magnified effect with whipping; you build a catchbasin, use whipping a lot, and so have a small population which magnifies the % loss of -3 water (ie: city with 10 population bringing in 20 water, -3 is a 15% reduction; city with 3 pop and 6 water, -3 water is a 50% reduction).

I see AI moving crysknife fighters and bladesmen across desert tiles, but not attacking with them; the Fremen assault stacks seem to consist of suspensor transports and escorts, with siege units, vehicles and guardsmen; but no melee troops.
So yes, the AI seems to be confused by the sandrider promotion: Fremen need to lose the transports, gain sandrider on their guardsmen, and get some new assault AI.

 

[davidlallen]

I wonder if some of this is from being forced to adopt Paradise civic and build catchbasins in every city ... I also strongly, strongly suggest that you deactivate the slavery/serfdom/imperial levy whip/drafting for any autoplays.

The Fremen get way, way behind even before building catchbasins. I have removed whip in these autoplays.

I see AI moving crysknife fighters and bladesmen across desert tiles, but not attacking with them ... Fremen need to lose the transports, gain sandrider on their guardsmen, and get some new assault AI.

This may be an additional problem, but I am concerned by lack of peaceful expansion. Probably if we find/fix whatever is causing that, then they will either go to par with other civs for war, or perhaps (my goal) even exceed them.

 

[Ahriman]

This may be an additional problem, but I am concerned by lack of peaceful expansion.

Hmm. I haven't noticed this. Perhaps because I am playing low desert levels, so there are fewer islands and so worse amphibious tactics aren't a problem? Since they're settling fine across land.
See screenshot.

Another potential issue:
they don't get the scout thopter, and so don't have an early cross-continental transport. Maybe this hurts them in terms of settler spread?

 

[davidlallen]

Another potential issue:
they don't get the scout thopter, and so don't have an early cross-continental transport. Maybe this hurts them in terms of settler spread?

Well, their settler, worker, and warrior can cross desert at high speed, if the AI can use it. So that would seem to be a benefit, not a liability. I agree this may not show up, if you have more of a pangaea map.

 

[Ahriman]

Well, their settler, worker, and warrior can cross desert at high speed, if the AI can use it.

This is my point; I'm guessing that their settler won't cross desert tiles without a transport, despite its ability to do so when used properly. So their slower access to transports cuts them back in expansion; hence their need for an AI tweak.

Its a liability *given their current AI*.

 

[cephalo]

Much of the unit AI depends on what area you are standing in and what the team strategy is for that area. Because ocean is currently AREAAI_NEUTRAL, as soon as the Fremen step into the desert they will forget what they were doing. That might also be true for settlers actually.

 

[davidlallen]

Much of the unit AI depends on what area you are standing in and what the team strategy is for that area. Because ocean is currently AREAAI_NEUTRAL, as soon as the Fremen step into the desert they will forget what they were doing. That might also be true for settlers actually.

Thanks for the info! Why don't transports forget? If I have a game running, how can I tell a settler with amnesia, from a real one?

 

[Deliverator]

Does it make sense for desert to be AREAAI_NEUTRAL in this mod considering several units can move on the sand? Would there be major downsides in changing this?

 

[Ahriman]

Does this mean that the AI won't use thopters and suspensors to attack incoming stacks? Ideally they would try to do that before they land and unload.

 

[cephalo]

Transports have an AI that is meant to cross ocean, so they are ok. Fixing this problem might be as simple as setting ocean to AREAAI_OFFENSIVE, but I'm not sure. I would think that thopters and suspensors would not attack unless they were already in the immediate vicinity. There are some default routines that attack any nearby enemy if the combat odds are high.

 

[Ahriman]

Transports have an AI that is meant to cross ocean, so they are ok.

The problem with Fremen is that we are intending to remove Fremen access to transports, so that they actually don't use them, they just walk across the desert.

 

[davidlallen]

@ Cephalo, there was a comment in the 1.5 feedback thread that it is still too easy to pick off incoming enemy transports. Ahriman suggested that transports should automatically unload their cargo after moving and then reload and move at the start of the turn. Obviously they would not do this if their move ended on water, and there is no need to do this in friendly territory.

Do you think this would be possible to add, or would the mission of the group be lost? If a transport was on an assault mission and unloaded and forgot what it was doing, that would obviously not be good.

I was thinking that the existing "worker threat" function might help. A worker which could be reached by an enemy automatically goes off automation. I don't know what that function is, but perhaps calling it for transports could trigger this unload.

 

[cephalo]

@ Cephalo, there was a comment in the 1.5 feedback thread that it is still too easy to pick off incoming enemy transports. Ahriman suggested that transports should automatically unload their cargo after moving and then reload and move at the start of the turn. Obviously they would not do this if their move ended on water, and there is no need to do this in friendly territory.

Do you think this would be possible to add, or would the mission of the group be lost? If a transport was on an assault mission and unloaded and forgot what it was doing, that would obviously not be good.

I was thinking that the existing "worker threat" function might help. A worker which could be reached by an enemy automatically goes off automation. I don't know what that function is, but perhaps calling it for transports could trigger this unload.

I'm not sure I have time to mess with it right now, but I think the function you want to look at is CvUnit_AI::seaTransportMove. You can drop them off anytime you are in enemy territory, or maybe do something like the worker retreat.