AI cheats at this game.

[TheMeInTeam]

They can trade fish for ivory, which is ghetto because it won't treat humans that way (collusion). But that's just foul play, not cheating.

Cheating is when they can trade fish for ivory through your borders, when you have closed borders with each of them.

Cheating is when they can build military units in a city that has no access to strategic except through your land, and they can build military units in said city no problem, even totally surrounded by your culture (including blocking coastal sailing routes).

We can't do this. AI uses different rules not associated with bonuses. This is cheating. When people tell you the AI doesn't cheat, they are LYING to you .

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Hmm - if that's right, I wonder if it means the resource connection logic is using the same code routines as the religious spread mechanic.

Do you have a save that demonstrates this? Did you happen to notice if the AI city screens showed that the resource is connected?

 

[Manco Capac]

Take your fill or you'll mass murder...

That little fact about still trading without trade routes is quite interesting.
Bother to give us some save.

 

[Manco Capac]

Hmm - if that's right, I wonder if it means the resource connection logic is using the same code routines as the religious spread mechanic.

Do you have a save that demonstrates this?

Hypothetic trade routes? That would be ridiculous!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I have one for MP where it turned up.

The at war version is from long ago, but when it crops up again I'll post it. Look out for it also however.

View attachment Ditto AD-0940.CivBeyondSwordSave

Just close borders with churchill/boudica again. I reopened them after I figured out it doesn't do anything to close it.

 

[Seraiel]

it's the same for the player afaik. I can also trade ressources with someone I have closed borders with.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

it's the same for the player afaik. I can also trade ressources with someone I have closed borders with.

Okay, so how about the situation that actually happened in the OP ?

 

[Seraiel]

Don't understand, Ressources have nothing to do with open Borders, you can see that in the beginning of the game, when the Civs don't even have Writing but already got Sailing, you can trade Ressources without open Borders agreement. It's the same for the player than for the AI, how is there a cheat?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Don't understand, Ressources have nothing to do with open Borders, you can see that in the beginning of the game, when the Civs don't even have Writing but already got Sailing, you can trade Ressources without open Borders agreement. It's the same for the player than for the AI, how is there a cheat?

AI can pass resources through closed borders, including borders where they're at war. The human definitely can't do the latter; it will cancel your production of the unit.

 

[Manco Capac]

I made some tests. Minimalist environments are needed, no froufrous of typical maps.

In conclusion, if all parameters were well-adjusted, you are wrong. AI's can't force trade through warlands.

In addition, IIRC, DanF5771 made us a religion 101 (and congratulated your work VoiceofReason ) and civs with with we are at war forbade natural religion spread to the other side if we need to go through the warlands.

BUT you are right the AI cheats in resource trading. Come on, gems does not equate iron!

 

[Htadus]

So, Artificial Inteligence do exist huh? Very scary.

The damn programs rewriting its code. We are all in danger , like totally.

I wonder if it is Sids brain that was used for the original code.




N e e d s l e e p

 

[Jet]

AI cheats at this game.

I'm looking forward to your Civ 4 AI that moves units well enough not to need to see into the fog of war.

And to a proof of your original claim.

 

[Manco Capac]

And to a proof of your original claim.

Better not! I'm nailing him.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I hope I AM wrong. That seemed really wonky though. AI was building swords and the following scenario was the case:

1. City was coastal
2. Iron was not located there
3. My culture surrounded the city enough to block coast line trade, and there were no land routes to another AI except through a river that was in my borders
4. However, the city had some tiles of culture in the water. Nobody had astronomy yet.
5. Actual iron belonging to the AI was in a different city belonging to it, with roads between but in my culture.

My only thought is maybe somehow the river was counted as being in someone else's land? I really wish I had THAT save.

Let me play with the saves and see what I can come up with.

The AI definitely cheats and that has been 100% verified, the only question is whether this is one of the ways it does so .

I'm looking forward to your Civ 4 AI that moves units well enough not to need to see into the fog of war.

I'm looking forward to automated workers with comparable competence to AI workers. How come the AI workers never build improvements right on THEIR side of the border while at war?

AI movement sight cheat rarely effects its success in a real war, because for the purposes of moving its actual attack stacks it doesn't make effective use of it, instead preferring to send knights on suicide runs to attack workers or catapults and get stranded within range of enemy cities. Some "help" that cheat is giving it.

Much more ludicrous and stupid is the "we know you traded with someone even though we've never met you" map hack. Too bad they decided to drag that idiocy into civ V too.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Okay, I did some testing of my own, and have been unable to reproduce this. I'll keep my eye out for it again, because it's happened to me a few times over the past months. Rather than cheating, there has to be something about trade networks I'm not understanding.

BTW, what ARE the river rules? What "tile" is the river actually in, and who controls it/gets to use it as a trade network? Without having the map in question on hand, I'm strongly suspecting this is the culprit. Rivers are confirmed in my tests to be limited the same way as roads...but only when they're in the war blocker's borders...so when is that 100% the case?

And while the human can trade through closed borders too (apparently), what was failaxis smoking that you CAN get resources from distant civs through closed borders lol? What kind of "closed borders" lets massive amounts of resources pass through them?

 

[vicawoo]

Civ 1, 2, and 3 border each other consecutively on the coast. If Civ 1 just discovers writing and nobody else does, he can trade with civ 3, even though civ 2 technically has closed borders. Therefore at least at peace closed borders don't matter along the coast.
Maybe it's the same at war. although barbarian cities do block coastal routes.

A seemingly unrelated problem: if I, civ 1, don't have sailing, but build a road connection to civ 2, I am connected civ 2. If civ 2 has sailing, he's connected to civ 3, so by transitivity, I should have a trade route to civ 3. But it doesn't work out that way, or with rivers. So I assume a coastal connection is calculated between the two partners and ignores the status of any interposing civs. Except barbarians.

 

[vicawoo]

Okay, I did some testing of my own, and have been unable to reproduce this. I'll keep my eye out for it again, because it's happened to me a few times over the past months. Rather than cheating, there has to be something about trade networks I'm not understanding.

BTW, what ARE the river rules? What "tile" is the river actually in, and who controls it/gets to use it as a trade network? Without having the map in question on hand, I'm strongly suspecting this is the culprit. Rivers are confirmed in my tests to be limited the same way as roads...but only when they're in the war blocker's borders...so when is that 100% the case?

And while the human can trade through closed borders too (apparently), what was failaxis smoking that you CAN get resources from distant civs through closed borders lol? What kind of "closed borders" lets massive amounts of resources pass through them?

If you play without sailing for much of the early game a lot, you'll notice this:
let's say a river borders both you and another civ. His capital is connected to the river. You don't have sailing, but road to the river. You do NOT get the trade route, unless you continue the road inside his territory connecting the river to the road.

 

[Seraiel]

River counts for all tiles that touch it, you should know that from levees

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ Therefore it is impossible to block trade on rivers unless all sides of it are in your borders?

I'm thinking barb cities block routes because they're "at war" with everyone or some such. I'm not a code guru though. It would be consistent with the tests though.

 

[r_rolo1]

Moderator Action: In spite of this being a issue that tends to bring passionate responses, I would like to ask everyone to moderate their language. This is supposedly a family friendly forum and some people might be offended by some language, even if self censored :/

Well on rivers, they technically are in the northern and eastern tiles across their path, but all the tiles that are considered riverside behave equal. And yes, you can't blockade trade through a river if you don't control the tiles in both sides. You can find a somewhat related explanation ( by DanF5771 himself ) in this thread, that explains in some detail the conditions for existence and collapse of trade network plotgroups ( that is what determines if a resource is available in a city or not )