AI suggestions

[Koshling]

Here is the file and a screenshot. Seems like for most of the game the Dutch make stacks of doom and leave their cities mostly empty. In their stacks are mostly city watchmen.

Red Circles = SOD
Red Squares = Cities with little guards.

Note they usually stand their and do nothing or sometimes go back and forth between 2 tiles.

What follows is off the top of my head based on what I see in the screenshot and what I know of the code. I have not done a deep analysis in the debugger of the save game to verify what each stack this it's up to (I can if you think what I say below can't be right, but it takes several hours).

I don't really see an issue with the screenshot. The stacks are just city defenders it has decided don't actually need to eb in the city right now since the is no attack force nearby, and they are more use increasing it's sight and occupying defensive terrain (they seem to be on hills and forests) than just sitting in the city doing nothing. If you moved in with attack forces sufficient to threaten the city they'd pull back into it to defend (or a least they should). Although they appear to be rather large stacks that's just the ai for you - it's not exactly economical with military units.

I am slightly surprised your footpad is not being attacked though(and that is concerning)

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am slightly surprised your footpad is not being attacked though(and that is concerning)

That is their bandit footpad, i have no units nearby. this is all espionage sight.

 

[BlueGenie]

Wouldn't it be better to designate a few at least as "perma-defenders" so they get the 25% extra Str from fortifying? I know I do it that way. Some mobile troops to supplement the city defenders and strategic point defenders. The two latter whom don't move unless borders or balance shift somehow.

 

[Koshling]

Wouldn't it be better to designate a few at least as "perma-defenders" so they get the 25% extra Str from fortifying? I know I do it that way. Some mobile troops to supplement the city defenders and strategic point defenders. The two latter whom don't move unless borders or balance shift somehow.

The way the AI works that's actually surprisingly hard to do. Howeer, it DOES always leave a fixed minimum + proportion of total in-area defenders in the city. The only issue really is which ones it prefers in that role.

 

[velosepappe]

Yesterday I got to the part of the game where capturing terrain was possible. Could anyone tell me at what technology this unlocks?

Also I only once saw another civ capture any terrain, it was on a resource but it wasnt connected nor developped. While I do think its cool they do this, I wonder if they bother to devellop and connect their 'captured' resources.

If the AI would do this more often units like thief would have an extra use. I thought about ways to drive off units of non-enemies. A neat feature would be to put a bounty on the tile that trades for some gold if the unit is removed and which would be invisible to the target or maybe you wouldnt be able to see who put the bounty. This bounty could attract other AI's or barbarians that are able to attack the nation in question.

 

[EldrinFal]

Alright, so I'm playing a Snail game with the v17 release. Prince level with Raging Barbs. Huge Map - Planet Generator.

Started with the default number of AI for a Huge map, researching Stone Buildings at the moment, and the last AI has just been wiped out by barbs! I lost earlier and had to reload, and the second time through I got lucky with a clubman after my 2 Slingers had been defeated in my capital, otherwise I'd have lost again. Cave Dwelling is the only thing that has secured me at this point. AI... not so lucky.

I would be interested to hear of other players' experiences with Raging Barbs on the new version at Snail or slower.

Edit: By barbs I actually meant Neanderthals. I haven't seen the normal barbs in my game yet!

 

[climat]

My experience was not in v17, but I think there would not be any differences.
Raging Barbs and Barbarian World were on.
Well, you know, Barb cities built units crazily and attacked AIs. Unfortunately, N-men also attacked their cities along with Barbs. It was like Barbs hired N-men mercenaries. AIs were wiped out. No surprise.

 

[EldrinFal]

My experience was not in v17, but I think there would not be any differences.
Raging Barbs and Barbarian World were on.
Well, you know, Barb cities built units crazily and attacked AIs. Unfortunately, N-men also attacked their cities along with Barbs. It was like Barbs hired N-men mercenaries. AIs were wiped out. No surprise.

I didn't play with Barbarian World on, so not sure how much more that would add, but I actually thought the Neanderthal spawn RATE was GOOD, it's just that on Snail, maybe they came a little too early for the AI to handle. Or perhaps when Raging is turned on, the AI needs to boost his defenses more and rush to get Slingers (although they aren't a guaranteed safety net by far.)

 

[Koshling]

I didn't play with Barbarian World on, so not sure how much more that would add, but I actually thought the Neanderthal spawn RATE was GOOD, it's just that on Snail, maybe they came a little too early for the AI to handle. Or perhaps when Raging is turned on, the AI needs to boost his defenses more and rush to get Slingers (although they aren't a guaranteed safety net by far.)

Several issues here:

1. Neanderthals are barbs, so they see each other as on the same side and will to an extent cooperate!
2. Raging barbs option doubles neanderthal spawn rate
3. Ai has no clue whatsoever about the game option and makes no adjustment whatsoever for it

In an ideal world you'd want every spawn region to act totally independently and not even have different groups of barbs cooperate, but practically speaking that's probably more or less impossible. What we could do is modify the game so that it has two separate barbarian teams so that Neanderthals and regular barbs are also mutual enemies. I could also fairly easily make the city production ai cognizant of the existence of the game option, and bias it more towar military production in the prehistoric era in that case. Part of the issue is that raging barbs is intended to present more of a challenge, but any challenge that the player faces, is also faced by the ai, so it's extremely hard to press the player hard without killing the ai. Perhaps when raging barbs is selected we should give the starting ai players one or two bonus units to begin with? Problem with that is that it's likely to be frustrating for the playe since the ai would explore much faster and beat the player to far more f the goodie huts and so on...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Several issues here:

1. Neanderthals are barbs, so they see each other as on the same side and will to an extent cooperate!
2. Raging barbs option doubles neanderthal spawn rate
3. Ai has no clue whatsoever about the game option and makes no adjustment whatsoever for it

In an ideal world you'd want every spawn region to act totally independently and not even have different groups of barbs cooperate, but practically speaking that's probably more or less impossible. What we could do is modify the game so that it has two separate barbarian teams so that Neanderthals and regular barbs are also mutual enemies. I could also fairly easily make the city production ai cognizant of the existence of the game option, and bias it more towar military production in the prehistoric era in that case. Part of the issue is that raging barbs is intended to present more of a challenge, but any challenge that the player faces, is also faced by the ai, so it's extremely hard to press the player hard without killing the ai. Perhaps when raging barbs is selected we should give the starting ai players one or two bonus units to begin with? Problem with that is that it's likely to be frustrating for the playe since the ai would explore much faster and beat the player to far more f the goodie huts and so on...

One option would to be to give the AI some extra defensive units in their city(s) when built but those units be special in that they can't be build and have no movement points. This addresses the exploration issue and forces the ai to defend its cities.

 

[EldrinFal]

Several issues here:

1. Neanderthals are barbs, so they see each other as on the same side and will to an extent cooperate!
2. Raging barbs option doubles neanderthal spawn rate
3. Ai has no clue whatsoever about the game option and makes no adjustment whatsoever for it

In an ideal world you'd want every spawn region to act totally independently and not even have different groups of barbs cooperate, but practically speaking that's probably more or less impossible. What we could do is modify the game so that it has two separate barbarian teams so that Neanderthals and regular barbs are also mutual enemies. I could also fairly easily make the city production ai cognizant of the existence of the game option, and bias it more towar military production in the prehistoric era in that case. Part of the issue is that raging barbs is intended to present more of a challenge, but any challenge that the player faces, is also faced by the ai, so it's extremely hard to press the player hard without killing the ai. Perhaps when raging barbs is selected we should give the starting ai players one or two bonus units to begin with? Problem with that is that it's likely to be frustrating for the playe since the ai would explore much faster and beat the player to far more f the goodie huts and so on...

Hmm... well if the AI were given 2 Slingers, it would still need to know to keep those units for defense and not explore with them.

At the least, I think the AI should be aware of the game options Raging Barbarians or Barbarian World, so that it knows to bolster its defenses. That would be what a player would do.

 

[Koshling]

Hmm... well if the AI were given 2 Slingers, it would still need to know to keep those units for defense and not explore with them.

At the least, I think the AI should be aware of the game options Raging Barbarians or Barbarian World, so that it knows to bolster its defenses. That would be what a player would do.

Oh for sure, but it's exactly the kind of thing that illustrates why i hate game options so much from an ai perspective, so I'll do something to move it in the right direction, but I don't plan to spend much time trying to tune it for any but what I consider the mainstream option choice.

 

[EldrinFal]

One option would to be to give the AI some extra defensive units in their city(s) when built but those units be special in that they can't be build and have no movement points. This addresses the exploration issue and forces the ai to defend its cities.

That isn't a bad idea, but it sounds like more work involved since a new unit would need to be created. Would a free building that provides +% city defense work just as well?

Oh for sure, but it's exactly the kind of thing that illustrates why i hate game options so much from an ai perspective, so I'll do something to move it in the right direction, but I don't plan to spend much time trying to tune it for any but what I consider the mainstream option choice.

I agree that not a lot of time should be spent on this, but I do think it's a feature others use. What about-- as a possible alternative to AI tweaking-- giving the AI some kind of combat bonus against barbarian units when Raging is on? Would that be easier?

It may also just be a matter of timing. Maybe the Neanderthals, on Snail, just need to start spawning 10 turns later? That might be an easier tweak to start. Hopefully someone can comment on this topic who is playing on Marathon or Epic.

 

[BlueGenie]

I still simply remove the Neanderthals.

Besides, Koshling, what is it you consider mainstream options?

 

[Koshling]

I still simply remove the Neanderthals.

Besides, Koshling, what is it you consider mainstream options?

The ones I play with of course! Seriously though, obviously any choice is arbitrary, so I will concentrate on any we have a wide consensus for being 'the recommended choice' shaded by my own views (since this is a hobby not a job).

I like the suggestion of just giving the AI a (small) bonus against barbs - doesn't effect AI-player interactions so not a direct balance issue, but should be tunable to whatever level turns out to be needed to keep the AI alive on raging.

 

[strategyonly]

Wrong area BUT, i am trying to PM you and it says you have way too many PM's now and your box is full??

Let me know when you get rid alot of those thx.

 

[Koshling]

Wrong area BUT, i am trying to PM you and it says you have way too many PM's now and your box is full??

Let me know when you get rid alot of those thx.

Done now

 

[BlueGenie]

As for AI suggestions: The poor AI is still lousy at city placement and/or doesn't evaluate for the third plot ring at all. On resources, one plot away from coast, in a heavy tundra/permafrost/ice region. This is with v17, still. And also still switch Civics a bit too often. In fact Civic switching by Assyria in my latest game had a very bad result for him:
Both of us were pressing culture against each other. With battles swaying the outcome to my side and with civic changes capping his culture growth he lost a city via culture flipping DURING his civic anarchy (which as far as I know is a time when you can't do much about it, if anything can be done at all).

 

[ori]

re: raging barbs: the way I understand it the AI are mostly inept until they have some defenders that are on par with neanderthals (i.e. slingers/axemen/spearmen), the main problem there being that single neanderthal units will enter their borders often one after the other and attack the city until no more defenders are left. The AI needs to focus hard on having lots of units at hand until they have sufficient defenses. Without raging barbs the neanderthals simply won't enter cultural borders so that this is not a problem. A small(ish) bonus won't do much simply because the stone thrower is much too weak to survive terribly well (so you need spare ones even if in a city on hill tops - and its unlikely that you'll have the AI found all its first cities on hilltops). Once slingers come around the problem mostly goes away since neanderthals are really not much of a threat if you have 3 or 4 defenders then.

My main problem with a barb bonus is that it needs to be large enough to overcome the stone thrower vs. neanderthal mismatch but at that point its likely large enough that the AI will steam roll every barb city early on.

 

[EldrinFal]

re: raging barbs: the way I understand it the AI are mostly inept until they have some defenders that are on par with neanderthals (i.e. slingers/axemen/spearmen), the main problem there being that single neanderthal units will enter their borders often one after the other and attack the city until no more defenders are left. The AI needs to focus hard on having lots of units at hand until they have sufficient defenses. Without raging barbs the neanderthals simply won't enter cultural borders so that this is not a problem. A small(ish) bonus won't do much simply because the stone thrower is much too weak to survive terribly well (so you need spare ones even if in a city on hill tops - and its unlikely that you'll have the AI found all its first cities on hilltops). Once slingers come around the problem mostly goes away since neanderthals are really not much of a threat if you have 3 or 4 defenders then.

My main problem with a barb bonus is that it needs to be large enough to overcome the stone thrower vs. neanderthal mismatch but at that point its likely large enough that the AI will steam roll every barb city early on.

Those are some good points. In my game though I found that even Slingers weren't enough in a Raging Babarian setup. There were groups of 2-3 Neanderthals invading my one city every few turns and eventually they took out my Slingers (and a few other Str 1 units I had). I think the other problem with just giving a bunch of units to the AI is that they might use them to explore and not defend.

The Cave Dwelling NW helps a lot as it adds +50% to City Defenses, but you need that in addition to Slingers w/ Garrison promotions. It is definitely possible to accomplish before the Neanderthals get overwhelming, but you really have to focus on that path to get it done in time.