AI suggestions

[BlueGenie]

I build all the buildings you mention in various posts as not wanting to build Joseph, though, granted, not all in every city but I do build them where I think the gain outweighs the loss, and surprisingly often it does.

So your question of "So why have bldgs ppl won't build?" is really moot as some do build them. At least one person anyway.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I also build them when the gain outweigh the loss. In the case of the graveyard that turns out to be almost all cases.

 

[BlueGenie]

I checked out Karadoc's mod-thread and must ask this:
Is the AI in C2C capable of setting up build queues in cities? I've never seen them do so when my espionage was high enough. (Or tech queues, though that's less of an issue as most often one can't get more than one per turn.)

Which leads me to the second point: AI and espionage with the new system doesn't work. Period. It/they keep building -espionage buildings because they give +gold and don't build +espionage buildings because they give -gold. This also leads to more revolutions a lot earlier as the rev index increases staggeringly fast for the poor sods.

I'd consider Karadoc a good addition to the team too as he seems to have a bit more insight into OOS's in the game in general, and might be able to troubleshoot OOS save games. Not my call though.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

Hydro wrote:[color-red]...but they should not effect games if people just don't build them.[/color]

@BG , I think you missed the point.

Nor did I say that "no one" would build them. I have even stated that I won't build coliseums or arenas until I "have to" to combat the redfaces. But the question still stands.

I also find it strange that Hydro would post that statement, because now we are building in redundancy? Not intentionally I'm sure, but that is what is happening.

I hope Koshling took a look at the link I post from karadoc's K-Mod. I think the answer to better AI city placement has been found. No need to invent the wheel twice as they say.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Won't that be ok then if i put back in the Immigration Mod? I believe thats what it was set up for in the first place??

Do you have a GOOD working copy of the way "we" changed it?

If I remember correctly the changes 'we' made to it were almost all in the Main Screen Python code. Since I bought a terabyte hard disk so I could back up every version of RoM, AND and C2C I had, I expect I can find it.

If food was not incoming. I'm operating under the assumption that the gov't would want to keep its people.

Who said anything about them leaving the country? I meant leave the city for other cities, perhaps that new one just settled.

Foreign food tastes funny anyway.

 

[EldrinFal]

Who said anything about them leaving the country? I meant leave the city for other cities, perhaps that new one just settled.

Foreign food tastes funny anyway.

I know you did. I was saying the possibility could exist for them to leave the country, as does happen, illegal or legal. Though there would need to be significant circumstances.

 

[Hydromancerx]

As for not building certain bldgs, that is already happening. So why have bldgs ppl won't build?

I give you the choice NOT to build them. Not all buildings may fit the way you play. In fact if you just build every building you can build, then you are loosing the whole strategy of building that I tried to put in my buildings. Every building I make has a purpose however there are some combos of buildings you may not want to build while other you may want to build one building before another.

For example the Crime buildings. One may say why build them if you are getting all this , and - not to mention it will slowly destabilize your nation. But the units they give and the money the provide are awesome! Many times my economy was starting to tank and with the boost of a Bandits Hideout saved me. Morally I am a horrible leader, but from a gaming point of view it was awesome. On the other side of the coin you can use things like the Gallows to keep the peace. All making your , go down the toilet even worse. Is it not worth it? You decide. However building a or building could allow you to have your cake and eat it too.

No one is forcing you to build them or not to build them. That is the whole point of having all these buildings. The more you build the more you must balance them, but the more cool things you will unlock if you do so.

You ask why? Because it makes a more interesting game and you unlock features you may not otherwise get if you had not built the building.

 

[Koshling]

I checked out Karadoc's mod-thread and must ask this:
Is the AI in C2C capable of setting up build queues in cities? I've never seen them do so when my espionage was high enough. (Or tech queues, though that's less of an issue as most often one can't get more than one per turn.)

It's irrelevant - the AI gets multi-build/multi-reserach wihout queueing because unlike player it gets a chance to queue something else up when it completes mid-turn. That's why you never see it queueing, bu that doesn't mean it doesn't get full benefit from multi-production.

Which leads me to the second point: AI and espionage with the new system doesn't work. Period. It/they keep building -espionage buildings because they give +gold and don't build +espionage buildings because they give -gold. This also leads to more revolutions a lot earlier as the rev index increases staggeringly fast for the poor sods.

I hadn't realised poor espionage totals increased the REVN index! Educate me please!![/QUOTE]

I'd consider Karadoc a good addition to the team too as he seems to have a bit more insight into OOS's in the game in general, and might be able to troubleshoot OOS save games. Not my call though.

Cheers

Totally agree. I exchanged messages with Karadoc yesterday to get the fix for the settler issue he posted about. I'd be very in favor of him contributing if he wishes to...

 

[Koshling]

I did (thanks for the pointer). I have got the code fix from Karadoc. However, so far as I can see it doesn't really mean the the AI would found in a place it didn't intend to, just that sometimes it would not move its settler there efficiently (or perhaps just wander around and never get there), not that it would instead found in a worse spot. As such I don't think this effects city placement per se, just the AIs ability to get a settler to found at all in some circumstances.

 

[BlueGenie]

Alright, have to admit I am not totally sure what the REV Index really is. I meant that they get higher instability because of it. As for educating you probably already know that the -EP+Gold buildings also give +Instability.

 

[Koshling]

Alright, have to admit I am not totally sure what the REV Index really is. I meant that they get higher instability because of it. As for educating you probably already know that the -EP+Gold buildings also give +Instability.

I yes, I thought you meant an implicit link rather than the direct link from the instability mod on the buildings.

The problem in the AI in regard to REV is VERY obvious. In at least civic evaluation, it doesn't consider the instability mods AT ALL (it does somewhat for buildings but I think it weights them incorrectly). The problm is (in fixing this) that the code for REV is a nasty mismash of C++ and Python with a ton of inter-dependencies. In particular it's the C++ that works out the instablity aggregate values, but the Python that interprets them to determine their impact. Since it has to be the C++ that evaluates them for the AI, that means the C++ has to second-guess the Python's interpretation (yuck) to weight them in terms of their impacts. In reality I'm probably going to wind up just putting in fairly arbitrary weights at first and adjusting them based on what happens (not ideal and very tedious to tune, which is why I haven't leapt into it yet)

 

[strategyonly]

I yes, I thought you meant an implicit link rather than the direct link from the instability mod on the buildings.

The problem in the AI in regard to REV is VERY obvious. In at least civic evaluation, it doesn't consider the instability mods AT ALL (it does somewhat for buildings but I think it weights them incorrectly). The problem is (in fixing this) that the code for REV is a nasty mismatch of C++ and Python with a ton of inter-dependencies. In particular it's the C++ that works out the instability aggregate values, but the Python that interprets them to determine their impact. Since it has to be the C++ that evaluates them for the AI, that means the C++ has to second-guess the Python's interpretation (yuck) to weight them in terms of their impacts. In reality I'm probably going to wind up just putting in fairly arbitrary weights at first and adjusting them based on what happens (not ideal and very tedious to tune, which is why I haven't leaped into it yet)

I hope you really don't too soon either, C2C stuff is way more important than another author's mod, HE is the one that should be fixing the problems, not us. Help yes, fix, no.(well maybe)

 

[Koshling]

I hope you really don't too soon either, C2C stuff is way more important than another author's mod, HE is the one that should be fixing the problems, not us. Help yes, fix, no.(well maybe)

It bugs me in my games, so it's fairly high on my list ;-p

 

[strategyonly]

It bugs me in my games, so it's fairly high on my list ;-p

I guess then its up to you, but please do pass, whatever you find on to the mods author as well, thx.

 

[BlueGenie]

SO, it's about C2C and how AI handles Instability/Stability for it's cities and Empire. Right now it does not.

Edit: Unless the Rev mod is separate from C2C? In either case it's the C2C buildings that cause the current massive AI problem with revolts all over the place and in my opinion that's pure C2C "fixing".

Cheers

 

[strategyonly]

SO, it's about C2C and how AI handles Instability/Stability for it's cities and Empire. Right now it does not.

I really do understand that, BUT the word i see is REV, and anything that is wrong with that needs to be reported to the author, even though "we" have it included in C2C, i'm just sayin'

But you'll are right, i tried to play with REV on once inawhile, but errors always happen, and then i quit the game right away, and say to myself, "i knew i shouldn't have started a REV game, geez".

 

[Koshling]

I really do understand that, BUT the word i see is REV, and anything that is wrong with that needs to be reported to the author, even though "we" have it included in C2C, i'm just sayin'

But you'll are right, i tried to play with REV on once inawhile, but errors always happen, and then i quit the game right away, and say to myself, "i knew i shouldn't have started a REV game, geez".

I never play without it. Don't get errors at all - just the AI doesn't handle large civs well is all.

The issue may well be caused by C2C use of REV features, but the lack of rev-cognizance in the AI assessment is a REV bug. However, this is like arguing how about many angels can dance on a pinhead - it may be a REV bug, but its exposed by C2C usage.

 

[strategyonly]

I never play without it. Don't get errors at all - just the AI doesn't handle large civs well is all.

The issue may well be caused by C2C use of REV features, but the lack of rev-cognizance in the AI assessment is a REV bug. However, this is like arguing how about many angels can dance on a pinhead - it may be a REV bug, but its exposed by C2C usage.

ahaha, i like it when a person makes me laugh, thx i needed that But true.

 

[JosEPh_II]

SO, it's about C2C and how AI handles Instability/Stability for it's cities and Empire. Right now it does not.

Edit: Unless the Rev mod is separate from C2C? In either case it's the C2C buildings that cause the current massive AI problem with revolts all over the place and in my opinion that's pure C2C "fixing".

Cheers

To be the Devil's Advocate here; I don't play with Rev On and so in my Non Rev games the AI handles the C2C buildings just fine. As I reported before the empires in my games are not stricken, shriveling Empires because of massive Rev hemorrhages but vibrant strong opponents. So it's really a Rev problem.

Why? Because the premise that Rev is built on was for a more Vanilla BtS game. Less tech, less buildings, less Wonders than what C2C has. If the Rev team had 1st played C2C (or RoM) Then built REV, I'm positive you would see a better mesh between the 2 Mods. But that's not how it happened. So to say that C2C is the problem is putting the cart before the horse, imho.

Maybe (being the advocate again) Rev players should play a game or 2 of Non Rev C2C and then compare apples to apples.

As for me, once WW and Pacifism gets fixed properly, the AI is a strong opponent in C2C sans Rev and with those fixes will be even tougher.

Edit: @ Hydro,
I understand you completely and I like your take on how things interact, but that part of your statement I quoted just struck me as very odd. Also sometime the game dictates which buildings you can/need to build vs what you would Really like to build to see what new avenues you've created. I'm a Fan of your work, but sometimes I just need to say Whoa, slow down a bit you're moving too fast. Do you understand where I'm coming from? I think you do.
JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

To be the Devil's Advocate here; I don't play with Rev On and so in my Non Rev games the AI handles the C2C buildings just fine. As I reported before the empires in my games are not stricken, shriveling Empires because of massive Rev hemorrhages but vibrant strong opponents. So it's really a Rev problem.

Why? Because the premise that Rev is built on was for a more Vanilla BtS game. Less tech, less buildings, less Wonders than what C2C has. If the Rev team had 1st played C2C (or RoM) Then built REV, I'm positive you would see a better mesh between the 2 Mods. But that's not how it happened. So to say that C2C is the problem is putting the cart before the horse, imho.

Maybe (being the advocate again) Rev players should play a game or 2 of Non Rev C2C and then compare apples to apples.

As for me, once WW and Pacifism gets fixed properly, the AI is a strong opponent in C2C sans Rev and with those fixes will be even tougher.

Edit: @ Hydro,
I understand you completely and I like your take on how things interact, but that part of your statement I quoted just struck me as very odd. Also sometime the game dictates which buildings you can/need to build vs what you would Really like to build to see what new avenues you've created. I'm a Fan of your work, but sometimes I just need to say Whoa, slow down a bit you're moving too fast. Do you understand where I'm coming from? I think you do.
JosEPh

1. I have had some games where rev gets out of hand while others where I never seem to have to worry about it. And yes I have played games without Rev on. Personally I think rev is a bit nerfed from how it use to be. There are way more ways to counter them, than in the past. I have only had a few games where rev went out of hand, but they have made the most interesting games. Most of the time I don't even notice I have rev on.

2. No problem old man. Just wanted you to be aware of all the "Easter eggs" I have hidden in this mod. One could play the mod over and over and not unlock some features unless the right set of circumstances line up. That is one thing i love about this mod is how no game is the same even if you try to play the same way. As for slow down, LOL I sometimes think I mod too slow compared to everyone on the team.