Alarming silence of Firaxis

[Perfxion]

People who are upset are forgetting THREE MAJOR rules of software.

1: Consoles have set hardware, every PS3 is th same, every X-Box, every Wii, they are all the same. So making software to match the hardware is easy and does not have the long bug test process as PC games because every code change can be predicted.

2: On the other hand, no 10 people have the same PC. Just look at how many different companies make PCs, and look at all the different internal products available to customize a PC. Software/games have a hard time testing because there are SO MANY people with different products that bugs will spring up. And fixing one bug will create new bugs that will create new bugs fixing those. It is a long process. The biggest exclusion is Mac is they are built mostly the same, but still changes and other programs conflicting could be a (minor) problem.

3: Customers are now demanding everything as soon as possible. And in the PC would, they have the ability to patch any problems so they can keep up with the demand. It just takes time. Time is needed to go through all the red tape of releasing something, working a set hours so OT is not being used. Do whatever other projects are needed to be done. They have 40 hours a week to do everything and it takes time to really and fully code everything correctly. Flaming someone from the site for taking time out of his life to answer a few questions does NOT help anyone and only hurts EVERYONE.

Maybe a few of the people voicing the loudest about the problems need to step back and look at the big picture and see on the realm of importance a patch to a video game is in the grand scheme of life.

 

[Dagta]

There were maybe 10 loudmouths persistently posting in that thread. It is extremely unprofessional for company representatives to alter their public behavior based on such a tiny sample. Unlike the average poster, this is their full time job, they ought to be above such petty nonsense.


I wish I could agree with you, but his statement was merely an exaggerated version of the truth. I have worked in software development, and I know firsthand that some bugs are inevitable in any complex system. However, the kind of bugs that would be obvious to almost anybody during normal use of the software are not inevitable, and point to the fact that Firaxis has a completely broken QA/release process. I'm not pointing fingers at any individuals, but it is sadly obvious that 3.13 testing was far from adequate. And let's not even get started on 3.03 - "built from a wrong branch"??? Such a thing would not be even remotely possible at any software development shop that wasn't completely screwed up.

Agreed. I've been programming since 1995 and it seems obvious to me that there was very little testing done on the last version of the patch. 20 minutes might not be far off the truth.

 

[Smidlee]

Actually, Soren (who was lead before BTS) left Firaxis totally to work on Spore.

This statement says a lot.

 

[Wodan]

This statement says a lot.

Come on, there's no idea why he left. Maybe they simply offered him a big salary increase.

Wodan

 

[Smidlee]

Come on, there's no idea why he left. Maybe they simply offered him a big salary increase.

Wodan

For what ever the reason the captain jump ship.

 

[Antilogic]

Ha! Don't get me started on Master of Orion 3!

At least this time I've got source code to work with.

Bh

Are you the genius who put out that patching program for MoO3? If so, I owe you a long overdue "thank you" for making that game playable! I enjoyed it for awhile after all the fixes...

All right, I really don't have anything on topic to contribute. As far as I'm concerned, the game is quite playable in the current form, and if patches take another week to be released, I'm fine with it. I'm so busy now I don't get a lot of Civ time anyway. If that culture-not-showing-up-in-the-build-list bug is really annoying you that much...look in the Civilopedia or download the unofficial fix. It's a minor issue, and I'm more than pleased they produced the game and the expansions, as much as I disagree with some of the content they included. I'll mod it. End of story.

 

[Duuk]

Personally, I think if people would read (for example) the title of this thread, they'd understand that "we the whiners" aren't asking for the patch RIGHT NOW. We're asking for Firaxi$ to say "we're going to patch it. no really". Then we'd sit and be happy for a month.

And if they'd pop on every monday morning and say "not done yet but still working on it" we'd be content for a while.

It's the deafening silence, suggesting that BtS is "done" and Civ:Rev is the only project of the future, that is alarming.

I won't be purchasing anything from Sid Meier again. Pirates, Railroads, and Civ4 have shaken my faith.

 

[ezwip]

I love BTS it is my favorite game right now. I have not played anything else since purchasing it. The AI is great and I've had alot of fun playing this game. It will never be complete to everyone's satisfaction. They gave us the ability to mod the game so if you hate something all is not lost. I do not play online but perhaps if I did I'd be on the side of those complaining about bugs. I have been playing 3.03 with Solvers patch and I'm quite content. I have faith that Firaxis will eventually release another patch to calm you guys down. Give them a little bit of time there are companies like "EA games" that would never address any of your concerns. They'd just charge you another 50 bucks with a promise of solving the problem, and lie to you. Firaxis FTW!

 

[TheWilltoAct]

There were maybe 10 loudmouths persistently posting in that thread. It is extremely unprofessional for company representatives to alter their public behavior based on such a tiny sample. Unlike the average poster, this is their full time job, they ought to be above such petty nonsense...


...And let's not even get started on 3.03 - "built from a wrong branch"??? Such a thing would not be even remotely possible at any software development shop that wasn't completely screwed up.

To the first part: I agree 100%

To the second part: ROFL

 

[Bhruic]

There were maybe 10 loudmouths persistently posting in that thread. It is extremely unprofessional for company representatives to alter their public behavior based on such a tiny sample. Unlike the average poster, this is their full time job, they ought to be above such petty nonsense.

The company hasn't altered their public behaviour. But individuals within that company have.

Such a thing would not be even remotely possible at any software development shop that wasn't completely screwed up.

Making such absolute statements without being aware of the reality of the situation really doesn't mean much. There are many times when an outsider's perspective just can't encompass the internal situation. That doesn't stop speculation, of course, but it'd be nice if it stopped these sort of grandiose statements.

Bh

 

[Stilgar08]

Personally, I think if people would read (for example) the title of this thread, they'd understand that "we the whiners" aren't asking for the patch RIGHT NOW. We're asking for Firaxi$ to say "we're going to patch it. no really". Then we'd sit and be happy for a month.

And if they'd pop on every monday morning and say "not done yet but still working on it" we'd be content for a while.

no offence, duuk, but that's just plain wrong. Before Alexman posted the changelog of 3.13. there were continuous requests and complaints and "whinings" from a wide variety of users: When will it come out??? I remember ongoing debates about when this will stop and that HRE or Poland-threads were missed!

After Alexman's post we all know what happened.. If I would be working at Firaxis I wouldn't bother posting to open myself for accusations and attacks anymore and would prefer working on improvements (updates/patches) and get the satisfaction of positively surprising the civvers when releasing a new patch...

 

[gps]

If I would be working at Firaxis I wouldn't bother posting to open myself for accusations and attacks anymore and would prefer working on improvements (updates/patches) and get the satisfaction of positively surprising the civvers when releasing a new patch...

No problem if they do. But are they?
There hasn't been another PtW-patch after the release of Civ III Gold.
There hasn't been another Conquest-patch after the release of Civ III Complete.
And last week Civ IV Complete hit the shelves!

 

[Naismith]

My suggestion: Wait before buying a new game, expansion or patch. Review the complaints and issues. For BTS, I didn't even buy it until 3.02 and Solver's patch were available. I never installed 3.03. I didn't install 3.13 until Bruic's patch was out for almost a week.

For those of you who can't wait, resign yourself to being out there on the bleeding edge. It sucks, but that's the reality of software products these days.

 

[Stilgar08]

Comparing Firaxis with other developers I find they're supporting their products quite long after the release... Don't hit me for that, but I honestly have the feeling you can count on them to patch until major gamebreakers are gone... (Played CIV I-IV and Pirates).Concerning Conquests I haven't encountered MAJOR gamebreakers after the last patch but maybe I'm not a too in-depth player for that.

I'm pretty sure they'll at least fix the problems that have been made for MP with 3.13. (I usually don't play MP, so I cannot say anything about that...) - I'm trusting them far enough for that.

Mistakes have undoubtely been done but compared to other games I recently bought the Firaxis-support and connection with the fan-base is pretty good.

Medieval TWII for instance was/is a nightmare updating and the latest patch had about 600MB!!! (no flatrate here...)

EA has been mentioned few times already and Activision is one of the companies where I refuse to buy a game from anymore... I made a lot of bad experiences with games not finished (enough) from shelf but CIV hasn't been one of them...

P.S. @Naismith: Could that be "Admiral Naismith"? McMaster Bujould? Great novels!

 

[Naismith]

P.S. @Naismith: Could that be "Admiral Naismith"? McMaster Bujould? Great novels!

Yes, the little Admiral - I don't really have his flair for strategy or tactics, though. Bujold is probably my favorite author.

 

[warpstorm]

Agreed. I've been programming since 1995 and it seems obvious to me that there was very little testing done on the last version of the patch. 20 minutes might not be far off the truth.

Well, I've been a professional programmer since 1984, and it's obvious to me that hundreds of hours of testing went into the patch.

Throwing about the number of years you've been a programmer (which in my case is actually true), carries little weight in an argument. It's about as meaningful as saying that since I ate lunch at the same restaurant as Sid (true fact) or that I am in the credits for Civ (true fact) or that the fact that I have a high post count (yet another true fact) makes me an authority on how much testing Firaxis did. It is meaningless.

 

[T.A JONES]

Well, I've been a professional programmer since 1984, and it's obvious to me that hundreds of hours of testing went into the patch.

Throwing about the number of years you've been a programmer (which in my case is actually true), carries little weight in an argument. It's about as meaningful as saying that since I ate lunch at the same restaurant as Sid (true fact) or that I am in the credits for Civ (true fact) or that the fact that I have a high post count (yet another true fact) makes me an authority on how much testing Firaxis did. It is meaningless.

NO offence but throwin around your close relation to fireaxis makes it look like your coverin for em...true fact

The masses say theres no testin then thats that truth. Oh well the same masses will take what they make and they will like it. Or they put up with it and buy the next offering . So in the end whats the point on complaing.

WHy should Fireaxix change their ways when their income statment tells em where all suckers. (no losses in research and testing dept yet high return in sales,,oh and the best moddin moddin team in the world to fix their mistakes for em)
Come on wake up, they expect all you to pick up the slack.

 

[Methos]

The masses say theres no testin then thats that truth.

Oh really? By your statement if the masses claim someone is guilty of a crime than they are guilty, even if the evidence states otherwise. Truth and fact are not derived from the masses opinion.

 

[jpinard]

I think a lot of the concern really has to be the fear the Civ IV staff has been dramatically cut back. It freaks people out there are so many loose ends that need to be tied up. No doubt, there's a ton of great stuff in BtS and I love it. But I am equally frustrated by some of the things that are messed up and some outstanding issues that are a bit sloppy (much fewer of course thanks to Bhruic).

One thing that bothers me about Firaxis right now? Look at Sid Meier's Railroads. There are still terrible design issues that broke the game for many people - and never got fixed. The game has no support from Firaxis, and the mod community is nearly non-existant. Ironic since it was built off the exact same Civ IV based engine (Gamebryo) so the potential is there. And can you believe it was only released a year ago? The community was pretty much neutered in just 6 months. So there is very good reason for people to be afraid we'll be abandoned. Railroads is the prime example.

Some interesting trivia:

At the end of the Civ Revolutions movie Sid says, "This is the game I always wanted to make". Sid said the exact same thing about Railroads.

 

[gps]

Railroads is the prime example.

Hmmm, for me C3C/Conquests is the prime example: the immediate predecessor of the game we're talking about right now. Second expansion is out and still has several bugs left, that somehow don't want to dissappear even after a handfull of patches, while everybody at Firaxis allready has it's mind focused on the next Civ-Project - and suddenly the company closes it's shutters and it's silence ever after. Does that sound vaguely familiar to anyone???