ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Mehmed must be expanding the eastward (although not very well, if his score is any indication). Interesting. Any chance of training a scout or chariot to head that direction and learn what is going on?

As I mentioned before, I chose Metal Casting as the free tech. I probably won't build courthouses for some time, nor switch to Caste System ever, and I already have a religion, so Code of Laws lost a lot of its usual appeal, even though I'm Organized. Then again, if the courthouses are cheap, that's all the more reason to delay them--until the cities have the production (and maybe Organized Religion and a forge) to build them even faster.

Wha?? That logic there is pretty drunk. The conclusion might be all right, but the way you get there? wow.

I've some small sympathy for the suggestion that you should hold of on buildings until OrgRel comes in, but I doubt that the forge should matter (for example: why not wait until factories and build the courthouses even faster than that?)

Beyond that, it's a question of leverage. You want to go to war (what a surprise ) which makes production useful. You'll want to get courthouses up fairly quickly in your captured cities, but you need the army to capture them first, plus time to march to war. You can worry about researching code of laws when you march. Fine. But the rationalization you wrote is just goofy.

Speaking of which... did you really start a Worker in Bombay when that city was one turn from growing? Whiskey Tango....

Edit: Reminder - the Barbarian Textile Mill really needs Ironworking to be of any use.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

No amount of gold that you get to save from ancient era courthouses can possibly match the gold you gain from a fast military campaign. I would not even worry about code of laws until after you get iron working. Because jungles are pretty useless, and grassland is just asking for cottage spam, which means you could afford to turn down the science slider until you finish off Ragnar, and then catch up by building a lot of workers and cottage spam the grassland.

However, to do that, I would have researched iron working rather than alphabet, but since you're already a third of the way in, whatever. Because if your opponants have iron working to trade to you, that's a bad sign on this map.

 

[Thomas G.]

What I would do:
If your workers ever get some free time, road towards your neighbours.
If Buddha walks over and makes a second home there they may become an ally.
And in any case you can use the road for quicker attack.

I would do this anyway for the attack-route, but in this case (you have the sole religion in the area) religious spread will be fast and furious by the AIs own missionaries. And this will make your future shrine a lot more valuable.

 

[uncarved block]

One thing that might be informative, perhaps even fun, is to show a couple screenies of Mehmed's territory. Seeing how the new patch has changed city placement, tile improvement priorities (will there be tons of cottaging already?), and defensive units (heck, you were going to scout before war, right?) might be a useful highlight, especially as this is your first time through Warlords. There's been a lot of discussion of the changes in general at CFC, but having some specific data in front of us might be useful.

Only if you have time, of course. This is already at 11 pages, and a diversion like that may not be welcome.

 

[Agent Cooper]

I usually go with Metal Casting as well, when finishing The Oracle and choosing my free tech. CoL with courthouses can wait a bit longer, but is absolutly essential unless you wanna go broke during peacetime.

I also consider the Great Library in my science city very useful during the early/mid-game, and prioritize researching alphabet & litterature when the fundemental techs are aquired.

 

[pigswill]

In terms of expansion I'd reckon settle stone city and fishing village while building up stackette to capture barb science city. You've got a long way to go in the game; bulding cities in unclaimed land doesn't commit you to any course of action which may be premature.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sounds like a plan: build up some units, starting with a Chariot or Scout to send Mehmed's way. Maybe a Chariot with Flanking I who could get Sentry later; I always like having one of those in my stack.

Meanwhile, I could also build a settler or two. Good point about the triple health bonus from the fishing village, ace94d.

As for my reasoning, VoU, I think I reverse-engineered it after a pint of Guinness.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 5: to 550 BC

I basically decided to finish researching Alphabet in this round and see where that left us.

For starters, I decided to build a library in Delhi:

It's pulling in over 10 flasks per turn, so it seemed to make sense. I thought of building a barracks instead, but I could forsee running out of gold to run research at 100% soon, so I decided to give myself a little tech boost.

I also adjusted the build in Bombay--VoU was incorrect, the city had 9 turns to go before growing, not 1, but his point was valid; it made sense to let the city grow before building the FW. What happened there was a barb Warrior was encroaching on the city and its sole Warrior defender while it was building the FW, so I felt obliged to insert a Chariot into the queue and then whip it to completion, which reduced the city to 1 pop, but may have saved it.

I gave that first, victorious Chariot a Flanking I promotion, and once he'd healed, I sent him south to have a look at the barbarian city:

So it's defended by three Archers at the moment. If it had been Warriors, I'd be happy to throw Chariots at the city, but this is going to require Axemen and possibly Swords. Oh, my Chariot survived an attack by that barb archer to his NW and earned another XP. Yes, the barbs are still stupid enough to attack across rivers.

The Chariot hung around for awhile, waiting to see if any other Archers would come out to play. None did, so I decided to have a look around Mehmed's territory:

3 clams and rice--not bad. Potential GP farm. I myself would have put the city 1SW so it got the dye as well. Does anyone think I should plan on razing and rebuilding (unless it contains a wonder, of course)?

Here's a look at his marble city, Ankara:

And he has another city further south, Edrine. My Chariot went down there and encountered another barb Archer on open ground--too good an opportunity to pass up. He earned his Sentry promotion:

Then he had to heal for a while.

Meanwhile, given Mehmed's predilection for southern territory, I decided to snag that very desirable site we'd been eying for so long:

Ha! Clammy Horse is MINE! And you'll also notice my FW is building a trade (and attack) route to Ottoman territory. Ain't I a stinker?

Finally, in 550 BC, with the help of the new library in the capital, I finished my research:

I immediately started shopping around. Tokugawa first, just to get him out of the way:

He's not willing to trade a thing; no surprise there. He and Ragnar, however, seem to have been separated at birth:

I guess he'd rather acquire techs by force?

So that left Mehmed. I first checked how everyone else regarded him:

Huh. I have the same score and deals, but the AIs obviously like each other more than the human. Oh well. At least Mehmed was willing to trade:

It was a little generous on my part, but under the circumstances, it was a good deal. Bangalore will need a fishing boat once its borders pop, I could use some additional city defenders once hostilities commence, and Swordsmen would be handy for prying open cities.

He's not willing to trade Polytheism, and he has marble, so that leads me to believe that he's building either the Parthenon or the Temple of Artemis. More power to him--I'd love to take it from him! (Just FYI, the Great Wall, Great Lighthouse, and Stonehenge have been built--all of them, I suspect, on the other continent)

So here's a look at the map:

We have one source of iron up near the fishing village which will be outside of its fat cross, like the wine, unfortunately. The other potential source is down near the barb city which I have pegged as my science city--and will also be outside that city's fat cross. If anyone has any suggestions regarding adjusting the planned city sites, I'd love to hear them.

Aside from that, you might notice that I'm trying to decide what to research next: Code of Laws? Mathematics, towards Construction, War Elephants, and Catapults? Monarchy to work the wine and for the happy from units? How likely is Ragnar to loosen up and start tech trading so we could get the latter from him?

My Sentry Chariot is going to explore the south as much as he can. I'm continuing to build units, mostly Axemen, to grab that barb city. One of my Fast Workers just finished the stone quarry (though I may build a city right on top of it), so he'll head up and get the iron on-line so I can start building Swordsmen.

I think I ought to build a Buddhist monastery in Delhi. My religion is just not spreading on its own fast enough--It still hasn't spread to Madras though the road has been in place for several turns now. I think missionaries are called for. I may also build a monastery in Bangalore once Buddhism spreads there--it will need cultural buildings to compete with Istanbul's culture.

My plan to take the barb city before going after any AI civs holds, but should we reconsider our targets? Mehmed is the only one willing to tech trade, after all. Then again, I really want to get that marble from him for the Great Library. Perhaps I should spread Buddhism (to which I still haven't converted--no need just yet) to Ragnar and when he converts, follow suit--maybe then he'll consider tech trading with me.

What do you think?

 

[ace94d]

Hmm.

Perhaps you should Settle on the cows(By the crabs and fish). You get, in your fat Cross, 1 Iron, 1 Wine, 1 Crab and Maybe the Fish(I can't Really tell)

Also, If you don't want it in your fat cross and even if you do, You should Hook it up ASAP(So that you can Build Swords for City Raiding).

Another Possible place to Settle is 2E of the Gold by the Cows in the South(Not now perhaps, but before someone else), That Gives you BOTH Gold and Enough Food Resources to work them I believe.

So, Anywho, That's my 2 Cents.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

The Chariot hung around for awhile, waiting to see if any other Archers would come out to play. None did, so I decided to have a look around Mehmed's territory:

So the new AI doesn't seem to have changed its preference for farms. This idiot has 3 clams, an irrigated rice paddy, a city square, and an inland lake with a lighthouse for +15 food with only -1 from a single hill, and he's still building himself more farms on every grassland he can get his hands on. No wonder he's overweight! Dude, lay off the carbs!

 

[drkodos]

What do you think?

I think you should go after those nations that will prove to be a military threat to you and Mehmed is not one of those nations. Keep him confined to that corner of the board and use him as a trading partner.

 

[carl corey]

ace94d, unfortunately he doesn't get the fish.

-------

Anyway, since this has been played up to Iron-working I'll just say that I went on and played a shadow game from the 2400 BC save.

And you know what?

I got to Clammy Horse first, but only by (half) a turn! Mehmed's settler+archers also came on that hill but I built the city first and they were kicked out.

I also went for Fishing+Sailing+IW instead of Priesthood, and took out Mehmed's capital with chariots and axemen. I'm a fan of barracks, so it's going to be hard to convince me unpromoted chariots/axemen are really worth it. Maybe when/if I have the time I'll try to run some tests to see if my gut feeling is more than just that.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Get rid of Mehmed first, I say. He's fairly weak and won't be difficult to deal with. What's more, he's easily accessible(i.e. you have roads instead of having to ma. Cross your fingers and hope Buddhism finds its way to either or both of the surly tenants of the continent. Hopefully Ragnar. Then you can pay him off to fight with Toku and trade with him from time-to-time while ensuring those two don't get along...ever. All of this is accomplished while your strengthening your economy and getting some SODs ready, of course!

In any case, your continent is ideally set up for a multi-stage conquest. And, for the kicker, since those dunces are unfriendly and Toku especially is a poor techer, beating them to optics should be very doable. Then you can get chummy with the other continent while dealing with your "friends"...

 

[drkodos]

If you do not get a trading partner, by the time you get optics and subsequently meet your neighbors across the pond you could be seriously behind in techs.


Then again, coming from behind would make a very interesting game.

 

[napoleonbee]

If you hadn't noticed, Istanbul is also right on top of an iron tile. If Mehmed doesn't build a wonder there before you get to him, I'd say it's a definite raze.

 

[uncarved block]

Yeah, Doctor EJ, I noticed the farms too. The only difference seems to be that the AI will replace those farms with cottages later, instead of letting them drag down research. If Sisiutil left him alone (ha!) those farms would probably all be gone by 1 AD, to hazard a guess. (On plus side, only one of Mehmed's cities is on a hill. Rare.)

Lance, I'm not sure that's a good idea. In my experience, once Ragnar doesn't like you, the chances of getting him to change are slim. The only thing that would do it is if Sisiutil spread Buddhism (and converted), and Ragnar didn't choose somebody else's faith instead. Has Judaism been founded? If Mehmed wins that race, expect Ragnar to convert and be your enemy for the rest of the game. Or maybe I'm too pessimistic.

This is, IMOHO, when India's lack of a military UU hurts the most. Of the three AIs, two will be awful trade opportunities, and the one who is will be your first victim. Being able to have War Chariots, say, and just take over the continent would be an appealing option right about now. The mark of a good player is adaptability, though, and having that easy reply off the table will be more educational.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Yeah, Doctor EJ, I noticed the farms too. The only difference seems to be that the AI will replace those farms with cottages later, instead of letting them drag down research. If Sisiutil left him alone (ha!) those farms would probably all be gone by 1 AD, to hazard a guess. (On plus side, only one of Mehmed's cities is on a hill. Rare.)

Lance, I'm not sure that's a good idea. In my experience, once Ragnar doesn't like you, the chances of getting him to change are slim. The only thing that would do it is if Sisiutil spread Buddhism (and converted), and Ragnar didn't choose somebody else's faith instead. Has Judaism been founded? If Mehmed wins that race, expect Ragnar to convert and be your enemy for the rest of the game. Or maybe I'm too pessimistic.

This is, IMHO, when India's lack of a military UU hurts the most. Of the three AIs, two will be awful trade opportunities, and the one who is will be your first victim. Being able to have War Chariots, say, and just take over the continent would be an appealing option right about now. The mark of a good player is adaptability, though, and having that easy reply off the table will be more educational.

Hmmm...it is chancy for it to spread on its own, but if it does happen....Sis CAN try and promote such an occurrance...are you making sure you're getting a Prophet for the shrine? That seems to help the spread of religion just in general.

As for no military UU....the only one that's really a big impact in this era is either of the chariot ones and the Praet. None of the others are game-changers(I guess the Quechua can be, but that's dodgy), so it's alright...

 

[UncleJJ]

It's pulling in over 10 flasks per turn, so it seemed to make sense. I thought of building a barracks instead, but I could forsee running out of gold to run research at 100% soon, so I decided to give myself a little tech boost.

When you built a library, I would have built a temple. Why you ask?

Firstly you are Spiritual and so it is half price. Secondly it allows you to grow the city one pop bigger. Thirdly you can run a priest and add 3 GPP to the 2 you get from the Oracle. That will give you a GProphet for the shrine faster and a shrine will spread your religion and raise you some much needed money and it will give another GPP / turn.

 

[Melon Head]

In my experience, the civs who do not begin relatively friendly can still be converted into excellent allies by sharing a religion. Various civs have different weights for the value of a shared state religion, and I've found that the peaceful builder civs (Gandhi, for example) tend to have relatively low values; +4 to -4 if one of you is the founder, and will still trade with you despite that negative. On the other hand, more warlike civs (Isabella is the best example, though I'm finding Brennus is as well) have far greater bonuses and penalties. I've gotten +7 with Brennus before when he had adopted my state religion, and even after I declared war and took half his empire, (only a -3 or -4 penalty total) he agreed to open borders the turn following the peace treaty, and I was able to work advantageous tech trades.

So it might be worthwhile to spread our religion to either Ragnar or Tokugawa; probably Ragnar since IIRC we have open borders with him. The monastery would do wonders in that regard. Also, I've found that AI civs eventually beeline for a religion tech if they have not founded a religion. (which is what makes it so hard to pick up all 7 religions, but fairly easy to snag a late game one) That code might be tied to the AI civ having a religion in most of its cities, so if you can spread buddhism to Ragnar well enough he might never pick up a religion, in which case he'd be an amazing ally.

Ragnar's warlike enough that he'd be great at either helping you double-team someone (Toku comes to mind here, or if you can get him to dogpile Mehmed for early relationship bonuses that might be better; just make sure you snag the important cities) or Ragnar'd be good at distracting a powerful AI civ.

Furthermore, Ragnar's financial, which means he'll be a beastly researcher especially given Blake's improved AI code. If he's your friend, you could leverage some phenomenal tech trading, even more so if you keep him angry at the other nearby civs so he trades soley, or primarily, with you. (keep in mind that the AI won't trade with you if it doesn't have contact with another civ)

Ragnar seems distant enough that you could deal with Mehmed first, Toku second, then polish Ragnar off when it comes time to consolidate your continent. His UU won't really affect that conquest, since it might be late enough that you're moving up to grenadiers/riflemen, and even if not it's bonuses primarily rely on attacking cities; since an active defence tends to be better, his bonus attacking over rivers or attacking cities shouldn't be a big deal. Just stick to the forests/hills when moving your SOD, and keep in mind that rivers won't help protect you.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

nah save Mehemed for last UNLESS ragnar converts and becomes your buddy, remember to take out Toku before he gets three promotion riflemen