ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[Thomas G.]

Your friend is Ragnar, your enemy is Toku.
You attack your enemies.
Drill&CG musketmen atm still will to a couple Trebs + cleanup.

Give some gift to R if you can, donate a resource-deal, anything to make him less likely to attack you. While you cripple the nasty Japanese. Travel thru Rs territory, taking Tokyo if you can. A great city-busting collateral stack should tear up much of his forces while they bunch up in the capital. This will be your deceicive battle of no return. I can't open the save, but with theo+vassal+barrack you should have a bunch of CRII trebs ready to make a mess.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Are you sure? I've had vassals with something like a -15 attitude who were still willing to trade all their resources, even their only supply. Technology was red, but resources weren't. I think they always have to be willing to trade resources.

They're always listed as available, because you can demand them, but I've had vassals refuse to trade or cut off existing trades. The manual makes it sound like they can't do that without provoking war, but that isn't how it works. Or at least it's not how it worked before the patch. I haven't confirmed that it's still the same.

As far as I know, you can demand 1 resource for free as the master. You can trade for whatever else they're willing to offer. You can also demand more than 1 resource, and sometimes they'll comply just because they're scared of you. However, the option is available to them to refuse all demands after the first.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

It's no surprise the other continent is more backward than yours since they're outnumbered 4-3 and don't have anyone financial.

Maybe no surprise to you, but I wonder what our resident pessimists are thinking about now? Don't forget that just a few turns ago this game was hopeless, lost already, "Surrender Dorothy" ...

Advice: start working on cultivating relations with the other continent. You're going to need to go to war against both Tokugawa and Ragnar at some point in order to get them under control. That means you'll need some foreign trading partners. Tokugawa's isolationism will probably work to your favor in that regard. Right now he has you and Ragnar as good buddies (or at least he has until recently). I can't imagine he'll ever make any trades with the foreigners.

 

[Eggolas]

I'm officially shocked -- Churchill not Lizzie? and not a tech leader? Wow! Probably means that either Toku or Ragnar is the GNP leader.

One advantage to being on a tech leading continent is that if your early war phase can do great structural damage to the tech leaders, you won't have to worry much about the other continent running away immediately as we previously worried.

I'd say use your better human warfare skills and attack! Prepare for a large SoD running into your territory, so those barrage II cats will become very important in protecting your territory.

You're going to have a mother of all battles here. Enjoy!

 

[patagonia]

Advice: start working on cultivating relations with the other continent. You're going to need to go to war against both Tokugawa and Ragnar at some point in order to get them under control. That means you'll need some foreign trading partners.

Why do you need war against Ragnar? He's Friendly and would make for a powerful ally - I don't see the need to take him out just because he's on the same continent. A friendly AI never attacks you or gets afflicted by WFYABTA so why turn on them? Cleaning up Mehmed and Toku will give you more than enough land for any of the non-conquest oriented victory conditions.

In terms of the other continent, you've got Izzy who's a non-starter in terms of being any use, Alex who's just plain unreliable and Churchill who has been somewhat erratic whenever I've come across him. I'd value a friendly Ragnar on my doorstep over any of that bunch across the water.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Why do you need war against Ragnar? He's Friendly and would make for a powerful ally - I don't see the need to take him out just because he's on the same continent. A friendly AI never attacks you or gets afflicted by WFYABTA so why turn on them? Cleaning up Mehmed and Toku will give you more than enough land for any of the non-conquest oriented victory conditions.

I guess it depends on victory condition and various unforeseeable future events, but my theory was that Ragnar needs to be reined in somehow. He's currently way out in front on the technology race. A good war might help get him under control.

But you're right that it may not be necessary in some cases. For example, a diplomatic win would definitely benefit from keeping him around as an ally. We might also be able to win a space race by using Tokugawa's land to increase our power enough to surge ahead of Ragnar or at least to catch up.

On the other hand, I don't agree that Mehmed and Tokugawa will give enough land for any non-conquest victory condition. For domination, we'd almost certainly need to conquer at least one other civilization. That wouldn't necessarily need to be Ragnar, but I'd question the wisdom of trying for domination without controlling your own continent first. It's just so much easier to wage a local war that Ragnar would be at the top of any target list I'd make.

 

[futurehermit]

Going to war against someone who's so ahead in the tech race can end up being suicide, however, if that tech lead includes (or becomes) military techs...

I'd say mop up Mehmed and Toku then work toward space race. If you can't pass your good buddy Ragnar then try for diplomatic victory. I think you will have to try and cultivate some good relations overseas without upsetting Ragnar...could be tricky.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

A few things to consider before accepting capitulation ...

If you leave him strong enough to eventually build a wonder, you'll never be able to capture it from him, since you can never declare war on your vassal.

If you leave him with enough territory that he owns a useful resource (either currently or eventually after its discovery), you'll never be able to capture it from him, since you can never declare war on your vassal. This is partially mitigated by the ability to demand a resource from your vassal, but as far as I know that's limited to a single resource at a time. So if he gets two important resources, then you're out of luck.

If you leave him strong enough to eventually found a religion, you'll never be able to capture the holy city from him, since you can never declare war on your vassal.

There are probably some weird tricks you can play to work around some of these issues (ex. declare war on someone, let them take the city you want, then recapture it later), but basically you don't want to vassalize someone unless you've completely broken them and taken everything you can imagine ever needing from them. If you've done that, then a vassal agreement is a fun variation on the game and a good way to save yourself some hassle.

All excellent points, as usual (from the many posts of yours I've read ). I guess to clarify a bit, Raggie had 3-4 cities left and would offer to capitulate, but in both games at least one or two of those were those wonderful Igloos the AI likes to build near Ice tiles. In other words, he was down to one or two actually productive cities, and pretty much lacking in most resources. But yeah, he was too out of it for anything on the scale of a wonder production.

As to the resource demanding, I didn't know it was limited to one at a time, that's good info to find out about, so many many thanks for that one. The only strategic resource he had left was aluminum (I gifted him oil to build a few tanks later in the game), so I demanded that and never had to try demanding another.

Anyway, most of this is probably moot at this point as the next round appears to be posted, so I'd best get a-readin'

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

As to the resource demanding, I didn't know it was limited to one at a time, that's good info to find out about, so many many thanks for that one.

Don't consider that gospel. I think it's correct, but I'm not positive.

You can always demand more than 1, but as I understand it, only the first will count as the one that's part of your vassal agreement. They can refuse the second or third demand without provoking a war. I know it used to work that way, because I've had it happen, but I'm not sure whether that was intentional or if it was a bug that got fixed in the latest patch.

 

[Jeff1787]

How bout increasing research to 80% and you get Philosophy one turn quicker at a cost of 68 gold??

That one turn might make a difference in getting Liberalism first.

 

[patagonia]

Just had a look at the save and the tech situation's actually quite deceptive. Toku's the only one out there with paper and you're up Education on him so Liberalism should be in the bag, especially if you focus (something the AI's still not very good at). This is made even easier by the fact that neither Ragnar nor Toku has made contact with the other continent yet.

Izzy is Alex's worst enemy and on balance you're probably Churchill's so an easy way to give things a boost is to sell Alex CoL for his gold, then sell Churchill paper for the same deal (do it that way round and you won't get a worst enemy penalty by possibly turning Alex into Churchill's worst enemy). That'll buy you the gold you need to crank up the tech rate and reach Liberalism ASAP - this is a situation which calls for some deficit research.

Before you get to Liberalism, check the tech situation again. If you still hold a monopoly on Education, try trading with Ragnar for Gunpowder+Music (if you can) or Nationalism if he's reached it yet. Then you can either risk researching Nationalism yourself and grabbing Military Tradition as the free tech from Liberalism, or grabbing Nationalism and researching Military tradition the old-fashioned way. Cavalry will keep you safe militarily for a long time to come, because even assuming the worst, Toku's three techs away from rifling.

In terms of the war, Mehmed's got to go due to the cultural pressure Edirne's putting on Calcutta and Bursa (you could do with more culture in Cuman and Madras too), so I'd add 4 Trebs to your army in Cuman and move the stack in Haithabu down to take Tokyo, then open the war on two fronts simultaneously once Liberalism's secure. Toku's very kindly parked his stack in Satsuma (Buddhist city) and even with a few emergency upgrades, there's nothing there to be scared of.

On the home front, you could do with more cottages around your core cities and an investment in universities so a civics switch back to bureaucracy, OR and serfdom fairly soon is probably in order (you can time a switch back to slavery for when your new cities come out of revolt to whip the unhappies into new trebs or courthouses - none of the established cities should be feeling it any more). Ragnar's the current GNP leader (although that graph is somewhat broken), but he's got workers farming over a town next to Birka so I'm not sure how much longer that'll continue.

 

[Jeff1787]

Actually, with some switching of the tiles worked in your cities, you can get Philosophy in 3 turns and Liberalism in 7 turns. That might pretty well ensure that you get it. That would deplete your surplus money though. But then you can drop your research back to around 70% and be making some dough.

 

[Sisiutil]

Just had a look at the save and the tech situation's actually quite deceptive.

That's what I was thinking after I posted. I realized I'm doing what you're supposed to: research techs the AI doesn't so you can trade them. Once Liberalism is in the bag (which I firmly believe it is), I'll have lots of prezzies to dole out--in return for some of the stuff I don't have, of course.

I like patagonia's tech trading plans and will do my best to put them to work. Ditto for the plans to have 2 initial stacks, going after Edrine and Tokyo. I have enough Trebs to make that a possibility.

A minor note: I'm mixing my promotions for the Crossbows. Since both Tokugawa's and Ragnar's UUs are melee units, I've been giving half my Crossbows Combat I and Shock (the other half get Drill I/II). My only problem with that is once gunpowder units become the norm, Shock units aren't much good for anything but inland city garrison duty.

I took today off work, so I may play the next round and post it a little later today.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Don't consider that gospel. I think it's correct, but I'm not positive.

You can always demand more than 1, but as I understand it, only the first will count as the one that's part of your vassal agreement. They can refuse the second or third demand without provoking a war. I know it used to work that way, because I've had it happen, but I'm not sure whether that was intentional or if it was a bug that got fixed in the latest patch.

Well, if I ever get the time to play another game instead of Civving vicariously through Sisiutil and aelf, I'll definitely test it out, since vassalizing *can* be fun like you said before.

Regarding the game at hand, I can see why you said the game was far from lost before. That other continent is looking like Oakland to our continent's San Francisco.

Looking towards the future, I agree that war with Ragnar will probably have to happen at some point, whether to deny him a space race vic (through a relatively short campaign to kick his production in the hindquarters) or to give us a domination vic (I also think consolidating our continent would be a key component of that). That war could easily be held off until late in the game, when we've had a chance to consolidate the former Nipponottoman holdings and have been able focus tech research towards closing the military tech gap with Ragnar.

In the meantime, Sisiutil, I'd go ahead and make the switch to Toku as Public Enemy #1. My military advice, for whatever it's worth, would be to move your main force S through Viking territory and strike East to Tokyo and Osaka. From there, keep going eastwards to Kagoshima (by way of Kyoto) if at all possible. Rip out his heart as fast as possible, don't worry too much about Mehmed at first. You've got solid defenses near him and could always use a reinforcement elephant or two as a temporary counterattacker if he gets frisky and starts pillaging. Edrine's cultural push won't be strong enough to worry about yet. Think of Mehmed as a terrorist cell - he can cause a bit of a disruption but doesn't have the muscle to be a bigger threat.

The focus of the war should be to cut out the heart of Toku's production first, so that even if he does manage to suddenly spring cavalry on you, it'll only be a minimal number. Remember your WW2 history - Hitler may have had the Messerschmidt Me-262 Jets by war's end, but his production capacity was so wrecked the few he was able to produce weren't able to make a big enough dent to affect the outcome. If there's even a risk of being outclassed technologically, you have to make sure that he can't put that superiority to use. If you can secure the 4 cities in his production heartland, you can turn north or use future reinforcements to take out Mehmed afterwards without too many problems. At that point Toku will either be asking for capitulation (not likely knowing him) or you'll be in mop-up mode.

Good luck, soldier! Now...MOVE OUT!

 

[aelf]

Go to war with Toku and bribe Ragnar to join in. That's the best way out. Although the Japanese cities are a little far off (as I've mentioned earlier), at least this way you don't have to take on Toku yourself. And attacking your only friend when you have enemies near enough to you isn't usually the wisest decision.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

And getting Ragnar involved in some warfare should help knock him down a peg.

 

[aelf]

And getting Ragnar involved in some warfare should help knock him down a peg.

Yes, especially since his territory would probably be absorbing most of the damage Toku will deal.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

This is a fascinating situation and what happens in the next 25 turns will decide this game. Amazingly, the other continent is not really competitive so it is you, Toku, and Ragnar.

It is essential that Ragnar be dragged into the war v. Toku to slow up his tech and to treat him to some Toku pillaging. If that can't be done, by the time you are done with Toku and Mehmed, Ragnar may be far ahead in tech - a difficult domination target or space race competitor.

IMHO the tough call now is whether to attack Mehmed or Toku. The case for going after Toku's big production cities has been made and is strong. But razing those cities would be a terrible waste and keeping them would cost a fortune in maintenance. They would also be hard to defend and to defend from pillaging.

An alternative would be to bribe Ragnar to attack Toku first and then you attack Mehmed. You can take Mehmed's cities and strive to decimate Toku's SODs if they come north to defend his vassal. As Toku and Ragnar battle it out, you can wait for the right moment to attack Toku's cities.

Both options would work if Ragnar plays along.

In any event, I join the others in urging you to get Liberalism, trade like mad for a turn or two, and then ATTACK.

This should be fun to watch.

 

[Melon Head]

I'm going to throw my vote in for attacking Tokugawa as well; we've done enough work to set up some antagonism between him and Ragnar, and he's starting to get uppity, and it'll let you finnish off Mehmed...there are so many reasons.

Don't worry that it's far away; you haven't built your FP yet and being ambitious about where to place it will really pay off once you take over Ragnar as well. FP in Toku's lands, Versailles in Ragnar's? Maybe vice-versa, since you're so close to Nationalism anyways. Besides, it's actually an advantage that Ragnar's between you and Toku. Sure it makes war a bit slower and you can't get reinforcements as quickly, but that just means you need to prepare better and have a large enough force initially (don't wait too long; rifling will kill you). Also it means Ragnar will take the brunt of Toku's SOD's if you can get him in on the war, which you should. He shouldn't manage to take any of the cities you want, but will hurt Toku significantly and free up worry for you.

Watch out for attacks coming via the green meany in the corner. Sure he's vassalized and weak, but Toku might route some units through there.

You may also want to avoid giving your units promotions as yet. I wouldn't worry about giving crossbows shock; it's a good promo, and you won't have the cash to upgrade all of your units (or shouldn't, anyways; just make better ones and upgrade the cream of the old crop), but there's no reason to pick drill or shock yet. Once you're on the offense, promoting a couple for stack defense would be fine, but not too many. Promotions heal half of the damage you've taken so far when you use them, so at 7 xp (3 barracks, 2 vasselage, 2 theocracy), you'll be able to heal 75% of the damage a unit takes before using it to attack, which can be nice. It also lets you specialize your units to what you need at the moment; nothing's worse than having too many shock promos when all you're doing is busting down the doors of longbow-defended cities.

Also, don't forget to build some cats. Trebs are simply phenomenal, but they cost twice what cats do. This means that cats are more efficient for accuracy duty (three accuracy trebs vs four accuracy cats), and they're versatile not attacking cities. I haven't done the math on which is more efficient at suiciding, but cats still have their place. Plus you can produce more of them before your final offensive begins, as your lesser production cities can crank them out without too much effort.

 

[pigswill]

Its worth thinking about razing rather than keeping Tok's cities. (Does he have a holy city? Any decent wonders? Keep those, raze the rest). It'll keep Ragnar and Mehmed busy reclaiming the territory instead of building military and teching away.
Then take out Ragnar.