ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[cabert]

settle where you are, you won't get significantly better after a lost turn.
You're coastal and that's good. You're on fresh water and that's even more important.

What to do? I'd go for warrior then settler while researching BW. You're spiritual, so switching to slavery is no cost. You will probably have the settler on the exact same turn you would have it if you start with it right away. but a lot more commerce (somewhere like a free tech) and a free warrior.

Or go for hinduism+masonry+monotheism, while building warriors, then settler at size 3 (or even 4!)? It opens a dual GP source : one for prophets, the other for engineers. But it's really low on military.

Or go for worker techs? agri then hunting then AH? Better to go worker first then. If you have horses nearby, it's a good tech path. If you don't... well... you still have elephants, if you manage to go all the way to construction

BW option is better IMHO. No gamble here. Go for copper, and you're done.

 

[Fetch]

I bet with just one resource in your default fat cross a metal will show up in it. Moving 1 tile will hopefully keep the metal within reach.

 

[voek]

Why is copper better, there are pigs within the fat cross.

And you need hunting for Elephants at the end.

 

[cabert]

Why is copper better, there are pigs within the fat cross.

And you need hunting for Elephants at the end.

Because you can research hunting later while moving your settler to either a copper site or the plains tile on the same river (=instant trade route).
But you can't whip with HA.
In fact, if you go warriors until size 4 then settler while researching BW, you don't have a worker for a while and you'll have plenty time to research hunting before the worker is done :
whipping the settler for 2 pop, then going for a worker will take 15 turns without another whip, or 8 turns, if you're ready to go all the way back to size 1. 8 turns, at size 2 is more than enough to research hunting + growing to size 4 will take more time than BW research time. Enough to research agri IMHO. So it will give you things to do with your worker while researching AH.

The weak thing with hunting + AH (or my personnal variant with agri in between) is you cannot rush anything. So you'll have to wait for your settler to be slowly built (meaning you're better off going for a worker first, settler being too slow at size 1 with unimproved tiles).

 

[drkodos]

Whatever you do, don't settle on that plains hill. It looks like the only decent source of hammers for your capital and would be wasted on gaining a +1 for the city tile itself.

Too late, my friend, it has been done. I am committed to my plan and here is why:

You don't need hammers to build workers and settlers, and that is the first three builds for me in the first city. Chances are my capital will get moved later anyway.

By the time I am building units, I will be be whipping and the fat cross will have expanded to pick up those elephants. Eventually, with all the cottaged flood plains, it will be a commerce city anyway.


You will see. Yes you will, my precious.

 

[Eggolas]

Sorry, no sea resource. NIce elephants though.

Settle in place and get started. Trade off: early religion or work the tiles for food and happiness in Ivory/Pig Farms. The religion path is always a gamble and the ivory is a definite +1 happiness/+1 hammer with a camp.

 

[Mannu]

hmm... I am so tempted to suggest moving onto the plains hill and founding your first city there. You will lose 1 turn for research, but I think the early advantage of having a city on a plains hill (+1 extra hammer) is worth the later disadvantage of having a city with less hammers.

I envision the capitol being moved and this first city being turned into a commerce city. There is a lot of risk in settling there, namely unrevealed tiles that might be more desert. I don't think you have to worry about tundra, but maybe so. Best case scenario would be a food resource out in the ocean to compensate for giving up the pigs (2nd city will work those though).

I'd also like to see a possible early religion though, if there is another civ on the river. Start with Polytheism. Send your warrior down the river and if he finds the end without another civ on it, then switch to a worker tech.

 

[voek]

In fact, if you go warriors until size 4 then settler while researching BW, you don't have a worker for a while and you'll have plenty time to research hunting before the worker is done :
whipping the settler for 2 pop, then going for a worker will take 15 turns without another whip, or 8 turns, if you're ready to go all the way back to size 1. 8 turns, at size 2 is more than enough to research hunting + growing to size 4 will take more time than BW research time. Enough to research agri IMHO. So it will give you things to do with your worker while researching AH.

I think it's a crime to delay building a fast worker in favor of whipping a settler at size 4. You can delay hunting ofcourse, not needed right now and it's just a small bonus for agg. I think agg - AH - BW. Fast enough to whip. The high (improved) food will result in fast settler and worker production. Having large pop to whip units.

 

[cabert]

I think it's a crime to delay building a fast worker in favor of whipping a settler at size 4. You can delay hunting ofcourse, not needed right now and it's just a small bonus for agg. I think agg - AH - BW. Fast enough to whip. The high (improved) food will result in fast settler and worker production. Having large pop to whip units.

it requires going for a worker first, which takes 15 turns.
IMHO, it's better to go hunting then agri then AH, because you can just finish the camp on the elephants before going to the pigs if I count well.
After that it's wheel and cottage = more builder tech, then writing and alphabet (because it's too late for an early axe rush anyway)?

 

[voek]

I am not convinced to research hunting or not. The elephants give production which is good, on the other hand you can mine the hill first too (slighty less good, but saves research time). Somebody prob. will calculate it, i am too lazy tbh.

And with 3 food I prob. would go worker first yes, esp. since its a fast worker. Oh and if he is bored, remember it the best scout in the game.

Wheel and pottery depends. You don't need cottages fast, since who is going to work them? You always work resources first. The wheel is prob needed to hook up copper or horses. Pottery prob can be delayed. AI will research alphabet faster.

Back in discussion, huh Cabert

 

[cabert]

I am not convinced to research hunting or not. The elephants give production which is good, on the other hand you can mine the hill first too (slighty less good, but saves research time). Somebody prob. will calculate it, i am too lazy tbh.

I'm very reluctant to go deep into the tech tree then go back for prereqs of techs I already researched...
hunting and agri are both prereqs of AH, so the most cost effective tech order is agri+ hunting then AH.
What you could forgo researching here is agri, since hunting is needed for the elephants, while agri is not needed at all right now.

And with 3 food I prob. would go worker first yes, esp. since its a fast worker. Oh and if he is bored, remember it the best scout in the game.

makes sense
I'm really fond of instant trade routes, but it's not a good argument...
Anyway, if you go BW first, you can have a free warrior, then build/whip a fast worker and send him mining (1 hill!) while researching hunting, then camping (1 elephant) while researching AH... 0 turn of unemployment is quite good IMHO. Not the fastest growth rate however.

Wheel and pottery depends. You don't need cottages fast, since who is going to work them? You always work resources first. The wheel is prob needed to hook up copper or horses. Pottery prob can be delayed. AI will research alphabet faster.

pottery opens writing (same thing about prereqs ) + is needed for a granary + I work 2 flood plains cottages over a pig and an elephant every time...
Pig + 1 cottage is better of course for growth.

Back in discussion, huh Cabert

job is going slow today

 

[voek]

I know the point of cost effective research. It *saves* beakers, but esp. from playing immortal I have learned you don't have the time for it and only should research the techs you realy need even if it isn't efficient. Maybe I am thinking too much of the AI on Monarchy, but with the new AI I would want to get to alphabet ASAP. Anyway a few turns later it will be better to judge wether to skip pottery and/or hunting or not. But cost effective research shouldn't be a closing argument.

 

[cabert]

But cost effective research shouldn't be a closing argument.

I totally agree, for once
It's a closing argument if and only if you're going to research the prereq soon afterwards.
Which IMHO will be the case for hunting.
For pottery, and agriculture, it's not a sure thing. You could as well trade for those.
But trading for a handful of beakers isn't always a good move.

 

[johnny_rico]

What about a construction slingshot via the oracle followed by whipping a few elephants. If you build the roads with your fast workers, you could conceivably get to an enemies front door with elephants before the cities have a cultural defense. Truly puts meaning into, "Fear my elephants!"

This is probably a silly idea at the expense of a lot of other things. But, if you cranked out alphabet following construction, I'm sure you could trade backwards for just about everything.

It would only be worth thinking about if you can find a nearby opponent with an insane capital.

 

[drkodos]

This game is moving with the speed of a glacier.

This is the longest first turn of a game I have ever experienced. It is almost as if time itself has slowed down. I might not even be aging at this point.

 

[johnny_rico]

actually, you're getting younger...and time is moving backwards. If you squint hard enough, you can see the diplomacy victory earned in the last ALC with HC.

 

[drkodos]

actually, you're getting younger....

No wonder.

It feels exactly like all that sex I had as a teenager when I would also finish way ahead of my partner.






I just hope something good is keeping him away and busy and not something negative.

 

[NaZdReG]

Sisuitil,

while I will defer to the fact that you play on a higher difficulty than me, I must warn you about the improved AI abilities post-patch. do not go for a balls to the wall campaign strat like opening settler before getting used to their improved skills.

I normally sit on the border between prince and monarch, and just got my ass handed to me by caeser.. unusual display of AI stacks and city placement, trade skills etc. much harder to keep them pleased to say the least.

I would settle in place.. dont risk losing a single turn against the AI. the ivory is a boon and you'll need the elephants anyway. go for a worker early.. definately looking forward to seeing your early strat. but lets get the game going already

NaZ

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I put my balls to the wall earlier today on Prince where I've been struggling of late, and it gave me an early boost that's kept me ahead of fricking Mansa Musa(my only "friend" on my continent). I'm probably going to beat him into medieval and beat the living crap out of those accursed skirmishers with macemen and vassalize him. Why not put his ridiculous teching abilities to use for mighty Russia?(I'm playing Peter)

The point is...I would only ever do it if the terrain was VERY favorable and the prospective city is nearby, like I did with my second city that game. I scouted out some sites, and there was this one sweet-heart deal with fish, cows, and rice, lotsa grassland, and a grassland hill....that popped copper!(on the sole plains tile nonetheless!), and all of that sexiness in the second ring. In Sisiutil's case, he's got a lot of floodplains lying around. I founded that sucker immediately....and then pounded 'Henge out in my capital practically immediately afterwards. Still had time to get military up before there were any barbs. I know he's above a level, but Monarch isn't a bad jump. I think he can put this to damned good use in this situation. All he needs is one good resource out there, nearby, and he's gotten back his investment because food is rarely a problem with floodplains....

 

[pigswill]

I'd reckon settle on the hill; grow to siz 2 while building a warrior, then go for settler. Techwise go for BW. Ivory gives 1 happy but its a long time before you can build elephants. Plainhill city and a couple of floodplains gives one of the best returns on unimproved tiles(3c,4f,2h).

Religion wise look for Oracle slingshot (CoL or Theocracy);getting second city early helps with this as one city builds units while other builds Oracle.