ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[patagonia]

while I will defer to the fact that you play on a higher difficulty than me, I must warn you about the improved AI abilities post-patch. do not go for a balls to the wall campaign strat like opening settler before getting used to their improved skills.

I'm not so sure about this. The new AI definitely places its cities better, grows them larger/faster and builds more cottages, but I don't think it's sufficiently harder to beat.

Send a decent sized stack of axes/swords at one of its cities and you'll win just like always - having more land and specialising your cities better is the easiest way to succeed.

 

[cabert]

I'm not so sure about this. The new AI definitely places its cities better, grows them larger/faster and builds more cottages, but I don't think it's sufficiently harder to beat.

Send a decent sized stack of axes/swords at one of its cities and you'll win just like always - having more land and specialising your cities better is the easiest way to succeed.

I tried a monarch/ patched warlords game and got kicked. Hard.

The better city placement is good for you when you capture the city, but it's also good for the AI before you do/if you don't = faster teching, better production.

 

[Vikciukas]

I tried a monarch/ patched warlords game and got kicked. Hard.

The better city placement is good for you when you capture the city, but it's also good for the AI before you do/if you don't = faster teching, better production.

I totaly agree. Better AI cities, means better AI production, means better AI commerse, means that when you come knocking on their door they are simply better prepared. I am very eager to see how this ALC will turn out, because I think patched AI is harder to beat. How much harder? Sisiutil will have to show us

 

[Mitch Connor]

The improved AI may be harder but it isn't that difficult. We shouldn't leave the AI alone though so a few wars might be in order. I want to go for a axemen/swordsmen/chariot rush to knock someone off very early though.

 

[drkodos]

The improved AI may be harder but it isn't that difficult. We shouldn't leave the AI alone though so a few wars might be in order. I want to go for a axemen/swordsmen/chariot rush to knock someone off very early though.

Agreed.

Where the game engine finds the meat of its new torque band is in mid to late game. At the early stages, it has not been granted any magical or super powers aside from whatever advantages have been bestowed by level of play.

The crux now comes mid to late game, rather than early as it did previosuly.

Where one usually could feel if a game was won by let's say 500 AD , now it is much more common to see one of the computer engine civs come roaring back from the abyss and make very strong mid to late game run.

Of course, it is still pivotal to play opening moves solidly to create a good foundation, but the real tests will now routinely come after 1200AD and again after 1500AD.

Overture, curtains, lights,
This is it, the night of nights
No more rehearsing and nursing a part
We know every part by heart
Overture, curtains, lights
This is it, you'll hit the heights
And oh what heights we'll hit
On with the show this is it

Tonight what heights we'll hit
On with the show this is it

 

[NaZdReG]

While I have no way of directly confirming it, it seems that the AI almost has a rubber-band like catchup effect. I beat washington down to just 2 cities, and at like 500ad Isabella DOW on him. he responds with 3 stacks consisting of 8 trebs 5 maces and 2 pikes. shocking evenness to his war stacks I was a little surprised.

my 2nd post patch game again got my ass handed to me on prince.. unusual as I used to almost keep up on monarch. yeah some of you NOT feeling this way about the AI are of higher skill level but thats to be expected.

Sisuitil, like I said just be on guard and don't go expecting an easy win!

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

Sorry for the delay. I got caught up razing Montezuma back to the stone age in an off-line vanilla game. Very satisfying, as you can imagine, but distracting.

Perhaps I haven't made a move yet because I'm having a hard time deciding upon the starting city site and I'm waiting for more feedback. Here's the issue for me, and it's a long-term one which I don't think I've seen addressed here yet: if the first city becomes the Hindu holy city, it should subsequently be a commerce city to take advantage of the shrine income. If I settle in place, I'll have a lot of plains tiles, which make for a mediocre commerce city. It may make more sense to move back to where more flood plains are available for a better commerce site. However, that costs me one turn and, ironically, puts Hinduism at risk.

Urk! What to do? I'm paralyzed! Somebody help me, or at least give me a good swift kick in the pants.

 

[aelf]

Sorry for the delay. I got caught up razing Montezuma back to the stone age in an off-line vanilla game. Very satisfying, as you can imagine, but distracting.

Perhaps I haven't made a move yet because I'm having a hard time deciding upon the starting city site and I'm waiting for more feedback. Here's the issue for me, and it's a long-term one which I don't think I've seen addressed here yet: if the first city becomes the Hindu holy city, it should subsequently be a commerce city to take advantage of the shrine income. If I settle in place, I'll have a lot of plains tiles, which make for a mediocre commerce city. It may make more sense to move back to where more flood plains are available for a better commerce site. However, that costs me one turn and, ironically, puts Hinduism at risk.

Urk! What to do? I'm paralyzed! Somebody help me, or at least give me a good swift kick in the pants.

Flip a coin!

Honestly, there's no way you can make a truly informed decision with what you have now. Just decide and rationalize your decision

 

[johnny_rico]

It still won't be a bad commerce, just not perfect. You'll be able to use those plains for hammers for producing say, mass amounts of missionaries and have an easier time making all the science and economic buildings as well.

I say settle in place. You're better off founding an early religion instead of catering your plans to popping CoL, theology, or philo.

 

[patagonia]

Here's the issue for me, and it's a long-term one which I don't think I've seen addressed here yet: if the first city becomes the Hindu holy city, it should subsequently be a commerce city to take advantage of the shrine income. If I settle in place, I'll have a lot of plains tiles, which make for a mediocre commerce city. It may make more sense to move back to where more flood plains are available for a better commerce site. However, that costs me one turn and, ironically, puts Hinduism at risk.

Urk! What to do? I'm paralyzed! Somebody help me, or at least give me a good swift kick in the pants.

Looking at what we can see on the map, by my calculations if you mine the plains hill (possibly windmilling later), pasture the pigs and cottage-spam-a-go-go everywhere else, you'll have enough food to work all your available tiles (possibly with one or three left over - other people are better at this counting lark than me) so what's not to like about that?

Alternatively, if you're running a more pure CE in this game, you'll want to pasture the pigs, farm the floodplains and have merchants to go with your shrine (which with wall street and a dedicated missionary spam should hopefully be lucrative enough to provide all the coin your empire needs at 100% research on the slider everywhere else). You'd be best off moving the capital mid-late game to truly exploit that approach.

 

[drkodos]

I say settle in place. You're better off founding an early religion instead of catering your plans to popping CoL, theology, or philo.

I think it is just as reasonable to capture another religion and a holy shrine city. It is often more tactically advantageous as well to let others do the grunt work and just come in to grab the spoils. While they are making their little temples and prosteletyzing, we can be building an army instead.

Again, I think either is a viable alternative, but I prefer the latter.

Same with wonders, with clear exception to Oracle.

 

[johnny_rico]

I think it is just as reasonable to capture another religion and a holy shrine city. It is often more tactically advantageous as well to let others do the grunt work and just come in to grab the spoils. While they are making their little temples and prosteletyzing, we can be building an army instead.

Again, I think either is a viable alternative, but I prefer the latter.

Same with wonders, with clear exception to Oracle.

I guess I'm just unlucky. My neighbors never seem to found a religion. It's always such a hike to the nearest shrine. I suppose that's not all bad since the shrines aren't worth much until the religion is wide spread, except the shrine helps spread the religion, in the advent of missionaries.

 

[drkodos]

I guess I'm just unlucky. My neighbors never seem to found a religion.

I try thinking like a Viking (regardless of who I play) and look for the holy cities even at a distance so I can go Lindisfarne on some unsuspecting nation.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Here's the issue for me, and it's a long-term one which I don't think I've seen addressed here yet: if the first city becomes the Hindu holy city, it should subsequently be a commerce city to take advantage of the shrine income.

I think it will make a better commerce city than you give it credit for. True, there are a lot of plains tiles, but you also have a huge amount of food.

Overall there is 38 food available for 19 tiles. You break even on food. You can easily irrigate one or two flood plains temporarily if you want additional growth for a while, but there's no reason that your long term development can't be 13 cottages, 3 coast, 1 ivory, 1 pigs, and 1 mine.

Maybe that's not the best commerce city ever, but it's quite good. I've said before that I like a minimum of 14 cottages for a cultural win, and I think that's also a good rule of thumb for an Oxford or Wall Street city, but you're only 1 tile off from that with 3 coast and the ivory to partially make up for it. You could even windmill the hill eventually.

If I'm counting correctly, you'll also be getting 15 hammers per turn at full population but before Universal Suffrage and railroads. Those will add another 8 hammers per turn for a total of 23. That's huge for a commerce city, and that's without even considering Bureaucracy.

 

[drkodos]

I feel a disturbance in the CIV force.

 

[LosBlack]

I think it will make a better commerce city than you give it credit for. True, there are a lot of plains tiles, but you also have a huge amount of food.
...
Overall there is 38 food available for 19 tiles.
...
If I'm counting correctly, you'll also be getting 15 hammers per turn at full population but before Universal Suffrage and railroads.

i agree with DrEJ. at first glance, plains always look so brown and unappealing, but when you do the math, you see it can be a really good city. ironically not "perfect" because it's balanced. that was a problem i had for a while: avoid all plains tiles..too brown, too icky.. of course, being close to fresh water is a bonus.

another thing i realized about "plains-heavy" locations: the effect they have on dragging down your food production is asymptotic as you approach the size limit of the city because they're the last tiles you'll probably work. they won't hold you back until later in the game, and in a case like yours, you're still going to break even. if you're game lasts long enough, Biology makes the plains less of a burden anyways.

settle and get that religion..it's how we roll.

 

[njorls]

Question: Why is making your holy city a commerce city so important? I thought that the shrine bonus was a flat bonus and didn't take into account buildings such as banks or Wall Street. When I send a missionary to a new city, say when I'm running a 10gpt surplus, after the religion is spread I'm running an 11gpt surplus. I was under the impression that it didn't really matter what city a shrine was in.

 

[patagonia]

Question: Why is making your holy city a commerce city so important? I thought that the shrine bonus was a flat bonus and didn't take into account buildings such as banks or Wall Street. When I send a missionary to a new city, say when I'm running a 10gpt surplus, after the religion is spread I'm running an 11gpt surplus. I was under the impression that it didn't really matter what city a shrine was in.

All the gold multiplying buildings - banks, markets, grocers, Wall Street - apply to shrine income so each extra city of your shrine's religion can end up being worth 3 gold overall. However, the commerce multiplier for bureaucracy doesn't apply to shrine income, since that's directly gold rather than raw commerce.

 

[Honkoid]

I don't know wether this was suggested before, but it would be nice if you could add links to the other games of your series in the first post of the ALC-threads. Interesting to read, keep on

 

[LosBlack]

I don't know wether this was suggested before, but it would be nice if you could add links to the other games of your series in the first post of the ALC-threads. Interesting to read, keep on

just look in Sisiutil's sig..reading for days.