ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[aelf]

You can always capture a strategic resource that shows later. In the meantime, you need to find a better starting position.

It's not about capturing strategic resources. Anyone can do that. Strategic resources like copper, iron and horses give good hammers for your capital, which will be multiplied by Bureaucracy later on.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I like the starting location. Cottage spam that and you've got a massive science city.

Another thought is 1W, on top of the forest. It reduces the Flood plains in the capital and gives more flood plains to a second city to be build later.

 

[WTBCzero]

Bit off topic here, but did Sisiutil miss out Saladin (Arabian Empire)? He started with Monty (Aztec Empire).

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 1 - 4000 BC continued

Sorry for the delay, guys, but I got caught up in an off-line vanilla game. I'm sure you can relate.

An inexcusable delay, really, since all I had to do was move the Settler! Anyway, looky at what he found:

Elephants! +1 Happy with a camp, and we can make War Elephants when we get Construction. We pick up a desert tile if we settle here, unfortunately, and I don't see any seafood. Then again, settling in place would have given us a single, sub-optimal coast tile.

But hey, elephants! Going by their edges, the tiles in the fog appear to be mostly plains. It looks like a city in this location would have 4 flood plains, 1 pig, 1 ivory, 1 plains hill, 2 grasslands, 3 coast, 7 plains, 1 desert, a fresh water bonus, and will be coastal. 5 of the tiles have forests, I think. Not the best capital I've ever had, but not bad either.

What do the rest of you think? Should I instead move back to the start and settle there next turn, leaving the ivory for a later city? I could settle on the desert tile, but I'd lose the pigs and have no idea if there's another food resource nearby. Remember, too, that this is the improved-by-Blake AI teasing me with that blue circle back where I started. Hmmmm...

Here's a look at the map as revealed thus far, just to help out with the decision-making:

WTBCzero, I played my Saladin game off-line and then asked for advice before it occurred to me that I was doing things backwards. I may make it back around to him eventually.

 

[stuge]

Settle right there. There's no guarantee that there will be a good city site up north to grab the 'phants later, and you wouldn't jeopardize the chances of getting hinduism.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

yeah settle in place and make another semi-commerce city in the rest of the FloodPlains

 

[asabahi]

Settle on the spot. The tile that your warrior is standing can be a spot for your next city, depending on what the rest of the map looks like. With the elephants maybe go for Great Lighthouse?

 

[MrMahk]

I agree to settle where you are standing now. It is a pretty nice spot and note there are some unexplored spots in the fat cross that might even have another resource. You can also make a nice city down-river later on.

 

[drkodos]

I agree to settle where you are standing now. It is a pretty nice spot and note there are some unexplored spots in the fat cross that might even have another resource. You can also make a nice city down-river later on.

Better would be to move NW onto the desert tile to at least make it productive and get that other hill in the NW into the fatcross for some production.


Why lose the extra food in the flood plain by settling on it? It would be better to work that floodplain than settle on it, in my not-so-humble opinion.

 

[acidsatyr]

and loose +2 health from water and + 6 food from pigs? beats the purpose of working that tile at the first place doesn it?

 

[wioneo]

Isn't a grassland-pig-pasture and +2 health better than a cottaged/farmed-floodplain?

EDIT: I thought that I was being witty ...

 

[drkodos]

and loose +2 health from water and + 6 food from pigs? beats the purpose of working that tile at the first place doesn it?

Good point.

But, I was thinking along the lines of going after religious techs anyway, so pigs would not be worked for a while and by then 2nd city would grab the pork or get health bennies when the cultural border allows working them. Since I am convinced we are at the Northern edge of a continent (the conifers), the next city will almost definitely being going south along the river for intercourse between our cities ( I am already fond of the plains tiles immediatly south of the lower blue circle.)

I am tempted to Shadow game (the suspense is killing me), but then I won't feel right posting "speculative" moves about the game at hand. So a question for Sisiutlil: If I play a shadow game I certainly won't spoil anything, but is it okay to post up the differences that develop AFTER things go down?

In fact, this is one start I consider going onto that hill and using a controversial settler first build strategy I've been working on. On this size map, real estate will be at a premium and the only way to beat a neighboring AI to a good site close to our capital is going to be getting a settler out ASAP (or bum-rushing the opponent, which is always a good choice, to me).

Keep in mind, I respect and acknowledge all the standard strategies and tactics for this stage of the game, but I think (hope?) this start may allow, or even call for, something more radical.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Hmm...settler first? Normally I'd say no because you don't know much about the surrounding land...but there's an awful lot of floodplains. That basically guarentees any city you found near them will have plenty of food(and can start paying for itself). If you pop a warrior or scout, all the better. You can use them to screen the settler from animals. But, in this case, the settler-first gambit may just pay enough dividends to justify the risk and the slow start in the capital...

 

[Sisiutil]

Interesting ideas, drkodos, and a good point that I won't be able to work the pigs for quite some time.

Go onto the hill and kick out a settler first, huh? Intriguing. What does everyone else think of that approach? We usually get several turns' bye from barbs and the AI before they'd think of attacking an undefended city. It might be cool to try it for a change of pace. There is the risk of a barb animal eating the Settler, but if we're patient, careful, and keep the Warrior close at hand, we should be safe.

If we're wrong and I get crushed within the opening rounds, we'll just start over like aelf did. It's not like none of us have never done that before...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, drkodos, several other people have played and posted about a shadow game in a similar fashion in previous ALC games, so be my guest.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

nah, because settler first means lots of food and if you are going for Hinduism you need to work those tiles not

EDIT: Doh you will work floodplains which have commerce in them dont even read my first post

 

[drkodos]

Go onto the hill and kick out a settler first, huh? Intriguing. What does everyone else think of that approach?

Regardless of whatever everyone else thinks (no offense) I have started a shadow game and have commited to this tactic. As soon as this thread catches up to me, I will let you know if it was a good idea or just another one of my follies.

Independent of this game and what happens, settler first is a strategy I have been mucking with lately. I think it is very underrated and overlooked. I have had tremendous success with it up to Emperor level. To me, the game comes down to tiles. The more tiles you control, the better the chances are of winning. Nothing gets a second city up and running faster than settler first if you can get on a plains hill and have a lot of food, so this is really one of the more ideal starts I could pick to try it on this level, especially with the new AI.

My plan is to go for Pottery asap and spam cottages in those floodplains to keep up with tech. I will completely eschew all religious techs, no wonder building at all, and aim for military techs so that I spend every available hammer on units with minimal buildings. Already those elephants have me thinking Construction beeline with a buildup for catapult/elephant rush to take out the first neighboring civ. No doubt, my whip hand will get tired, but end up looking like Rod Laver's forearms.


I would ask you all to wish me luck, but I think actual skill would prove more useful to me.

 

[Vikciukas]

Hi there. It's my first post, so I just wanted to say that this is a great thread and, Sisiutil, you are doing a great job here.

I have played about five starts with newest patch and noticed that now AI seems to prefer founding hinduism instead of budism. Maybe it was just a coinsidense, but I wanted to let you know. Unfortunately I only play MP games (very specific setup), so I can not say how soon AI founds a religion in general. But I can say for sure that AI is now much better than it used to be before patch. Before patch I could get hinduism every time, now I managed to loose a race to it.

Regarding building settler first, I think it can interfere with founding a religion. I play an epic speed, so maybe it is not true on normal, but I usualy get a population growth before founding a religion and new citizen can remove few turns of research if it works a tile with commerse.

 

[voek]

Settler first doesn't seem to be a good idea, wasting the pigs for some time. Besides you want a worker fast. It's your UU, you need to exploit it's use ASAP. It's advantage is first of all in the very few first turns. Next to that I wouldn't go for a religion either. The AI will expand even more aggresive since city placement has improved. Delaying attack (going religious) is going to be even more dangerous. If you find out you are alone you can always lightbulb a religion for hapiness. I would go for AH and hunting early on.

 

[Jet]

I complained that the hill would be low production, but the elephants help, and I have to admit it would allow every single flood plains tile to be worked.

I'd be really tempted to move the settler one tile SE and found the Temple of Doom, with an idea towards getting a shrine or two into the city and then running a priest based economy.

Temple OF DOOM? Holy kamole! I just might have to start a succession game.

 

[patagonia]

Interesting ideas, drkodos, and a good point that I won't be able to work the pigs for quite some time.

Go onto the hill and kick out a settler first, huh? Intriguing. What does everyone else think of that approach?

Whatever you do, don't settle on that plains hill. It looks like the only decent source of hammers for your capital and would be wasted on gaining a +1 for the city tile itself.

Settling where you currently are seems fine and won't waste any turns, so I'd go ahead and do that. If you're going to shoot for Poly, worker first is going to be a waste so I'd build a couple of warriors initially in that case. Settler first is an interesting idea, but it'll take you 25 turns to build one and then another 15 before you've got a worker available. Of course, by 40ish turns in, you'd have two cities, two workers and be able to finally start on some military, but that'll be cutting it fairly fine with the barbs.