ALC Game 12 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Tokugawa

[Elandal]

Are you sure about that? In my experience upgraded units retain their promotions, however they were obtained. For example, when I upgraded Carthage's Numidian Cavalry in the previous game, they retained their free Flanking I promotion.

They do retain their existing promotions of course. Probably this will be C1 CR2-3, maybe even C2 CR3 for some as their first strikes allow them to beat the odds quite well. Just that they won't get the free protective promotions you get for gunpowder units you build.
And Samurai's first strikes are a unit ability, not promotion, so that's not retained in the upgrade.

Also, aren't Grenadiers considered gunpowder units? So won't new Grens also get the free CG/Drill I promotions?

Yes, grens are of course gunpowder units and will thus get C1 CG1 Drill1 when built.

What I was trying to say is that when you upgrade C1 CR3 Samurai to Grenadier, you get a C1 CR3 gren. When you train a new gren, it'll have C1 CG1 Drill1. Also with the cannon reference I mean that when you get cannons, the old CR-footsloggers are pretty much obsoleted. CR-cannons are better in attacking city than CR-grens. This will change again when you can upgrade the CR-grens to CR-infantry, which again will be obsoleted by artillery then tanks (I seem to be left with a super-SoD of old veterans with a new SoD of tanks for pincer-attacks when industrialism comes around).

 

[Killroyan]

I don't understand how samurai are not considered to be among the strongest UU. With their combat 1 you get that 8,8 str unit with a free drill 2 promotion build in. Now all you have to do to make them city busters is upgrade the CR promotions and the enemy drops like flies. I for one love the samurai for this. Your stack is so strong with only these already. Who needs crossbows when samurai do a better job? Ok crossbows do get 2 promotions and cost 10 less but even with the drill 1 promotion samurai still outshines them. Too bad the civil service slingshot is not really available anymore in warlords otherwise that would have been the road to go.

 

[Elandal]

If I had to list my three favourite UUs, they would be Samurai, Berserker, and Cho-Ko-Nu. This is due to a few reasons:
- they have long lifespan
- they're available when I'm most likely to be in the thickest of my warring
- they all have synergy with leader traits (both mace-based UUs are for agg leaders, ckn for prot leader)

Out of the three, Samurai is often the strongest. Two first strikes (which is better than Drill2 - that'd be 1-2 FS) is truly fearsome, especially as the base unit is strong. Berserker's +10% city attack is also excellent, as that's what maces most of the time end up doing.. Amphibious promotion is more situational, at times being a complete non-issue while at other times extremely beneficial. And as I do use crossbows a lot in any case, CKN's collateral damage makes it a very poweful unit.

Definitelly with Samurai available, they will be the main attackers of the army. Obviously cats / trebs are still needed, as are pikes / 'phants (anti-mounted) and crossbows (anti-melee). Samurai can be promoted to shock for anti-melee duty, but I'd rather use crossbow in that saving the samurai for the CR-duty.

 

[indianer]

Hi all, and firstly thanks Sisiutil and Sis' little helpers for these incredibly helpful and interesting threads.
Also: hooray, I've got insights!

The best way to show off the Protective trait is to get Crossbowmen. You should stick with the old rule of thumb to trade for Archery, then go for Machinery to get both Samurai and Crossbowmen. If you build your Crossbowen in cities with Barracks, you can have the option of promoting them to Combat I to give you a unit that can attack pretty well against melee units (Spearmen, if you catch the AI still defending with them, and they come in handy against Axemen as well) as well as defend your cities.

Even better, one of the Protective promotions (I'm guessing Drill1) unlocks the first tier of counter promotions right away! (This continues to work. Drill2 opens up the Formation promotion). Sadly, Medic is not one of the opened up promotions. That calls for some seriously kick-ass medival archery units. As someone said before, I would rather choose Longbowmen over xbows, since Samurai already take care of every melee unit there is, and lbows cost less. That's just my unenlightened opinion, though. And if the AI has mainly melee units to attack cities, xbows may be at advantage when defending.

Too bad if you build Barracks, you aren't likely to build a Warrior... get the Combat I promotion, and you can make the Warrior a Medic right away, and then you're guaranteed he'll never defend if your stacks are attacked! Unless, of course, you really want to be devious and build a Barracks in a city that isn't connected to resources, then build that Warrior to become a Medic.

Are Warriors locked as soon as you get Bronze? I never noticed. Otherwise, what is to stop Sisiutil from simply building a worrior for those puny two or three turns, at most?

 

[Ruler]

Toku is one of my fav I don't know if somebody said this already bu why Toku is warmonger. The extra promotions are just perfect for peace-monger, you have no many cities thus production is low and units therefore the extra promotions are more than nice especially if you are in tech lead and attack when necessary with better units than AI.

Have you thought to try play as Toku AI. Don't go crazy with warmongering play peacefully and quietly and attack when you have to. It's all about a map if it's favorable it's doable. Just something to think.

 

[pigswill]

It all depends on the map but if you're looking at playing both traits why not go for early (peaceful) rex featuring archers and walls; maybe look for your archers to get drill promotions then upgrade via crossbows to grenadiers. Chariots are good axe bashers; drill archers should cope with barb warriors and archers.
Beeline CS obviously; maybe go for CoL via Oracle. Could go for founding and spreading confucianism using oracle prophet for shrine. Then medieval warfare featuring samurai then either turtle up in a medium size empire (?diplomatic win with Tok, that might be different) or straightforward domination.

 

[kniteowl]

If your warring in the Res and Ind Eras, Why not Draft most of your Units in that Era.... It' quick, only cost 1 pop and +3 Unhappy Citizen Unless you draft from your Globe-threatre City and combined with Theology & Barracks, you'd get 4 Promotions Fresh from the City and you can get three of these Units every turn (on standard sized maps).

Personally I Think this is quite overpowered if not... then broadering overpowered.

 

[UncleJJ]

For me Toku's traits scream for a drafting strategy in the mid game. Drafted gunpowder units (muskets, rifles and infantry) will get the free combat 1, drill and CG1. You should run Theocracy to get drafted units with at least 2 xp (drafting halves xp for the unit) and early on that means 3 musketman per turn with pinch as well as the other free promotions... Later drafted riflemen with C1, drill, CG1 and pinch (or CG2 for defenders) are going to run over anything and massacre the counter attacks the AI throws at you after you take the first city.

So I would plan and develop a drafting economy right from the start. You need to prepare to get the best out of it and you need to research Nationhood quickly. So I'd recommend the usual drive towards Liberalism, take Nationhood as the free tech and then research Gunpowder. Then mass an army of musketmen as you research Engineering (for trebs and faster movement).

You could draft samurai (while researching Gunpowder) but they don't get the protective promotions and only cost 70 hammers anyway, whereas musketmen cost 80 and rifles 110 hammers and paying one pop (worth 37 hammers with slavery) for 70 hammers isn't quite as good a deal for me .

The power of drafting is in the free hammers it injects into your war economy and the +2 happiness from barracks is good in all your cities anyway when you're at war. You don't have to draft in all your cities. It is better to prepare special cities that pump out most of your units. These cities don't have to be very big as the minimum size for drafting is 6. If your universal happiness cap is say 12 they get 2 drafts before they need any special attention (see later ideas ). Obviously they need a good food supply so farms are favoured over cottages.

How to maintain happiness while drafting? There is the old trick of using the Globe Theatre in high food city and draft one unit per turn (and with a good food supply also grow 1 replacement pop). That is a great long term drafting strategy but has 2 problems:
a) it is only in one city
b) it takes a lot of investment (6 theatres and building The Globe) that takes time to build.

Another trick is to use HR to maintain happiness in the city as you draft units. The unhappiness from drafting 5 units is -15 and can be countered temporarilly by keeping the drafted units in a stack and moving other military units needed for war there as well. When you go to war just move the stack out and use slavery to reduce the very unhappy city to size 2 where is doesn't cost much in maintenance. After the war just bring your big stack back and the unhappiness from slavery and drafting will have worn off enough for the city to regrow. This is a very good way to raise a powerful army by sacrificing one or preferably 2 small cities. Obviously they should not be on prime commercial sites but only need work a few farms. If the war goes well, and it should with 10 drafted units plus the extra ones built with slavery as the cities are whipped down to size 2, you will have traded 2 second rate cities for a huge army and probably conquered one or two enemy empires. Meanwhile the big cities in your empire get the +2 happiness from Nationhood to resist war weariness.

That is what I recommend Sisiutil tries in this game to fully exploit the power of Toku's traits.

 

[vormuir]

Can someone confirm that castles now give +1 trade route?

Because, if true, this makes them pretty useful -- especially if, as here, they're half price.

By the classical period, if you're in touch with three or four other civs and, trade routes in your larger cities are usually +2 or +3. Nothing to sneeze at, especially if you're in a coastal city and running a harbor for 50% more. Remember, while Tokugawa is a great warmonger, you have no economic benefits at all. So every bit helps.

Further: is it true that walls and castles help your power rating? If true, this will make other civs less likely to surprise you with an attack, and a bit more likely to pay tribute.

Finally, note that castles give +1 culture. Pretty teensy, but it's something.

Walls are normally 50 hammers, and castles 100. So for you, they're just 25 and 50 (or 17 and 33 if you have Stone). The wall-castle combo is thus less than a temple or harbor.

You'll probably never use the defense bonus. But 75 hammers to get one extra trade route, a boost in your power rating, and +1 culture? That's not too bad. It makes castles, if not a priority, then at least worth doing.

Final thought: walls need Masonry, and castles require Engineering. So you wouldn't build them until the midgame anyhow.


Waldo

 

[vormuir]

Osaka Castle
And all that I have ever done
Is but a dream
Within a dream.

-- Attributed to Ieyasu Tokugawa

 

[kniteowl]

I wouldn't want Sisiutil to Neglect his UU because he beelined to Liberalism, Nationhood and Gunpowder for the drafting benefits of Toku's traits.

I'd prefer that he benefits as much as possible from his UU and tech normally, Once He reaches the Res Age or close to either Liberlism, or Gunpowder then switch to a drafting strategy.

I still say Castles are weak even cheap with the Protective trait and stone... The AI isn't far from Banking and will Switch to Mercantilism suddenly decreasing the economic benefit significantly, I'd say use those Hammers to build units instead of castles, You'll make up for the Land you conquered for the lack of an economic trait.

 

[Elandal]

The problem with Castles is that normally there's no need to build walls or castles for defensive purposes, thus you have to count the hammers of wall + castle for the benefit of +1 trade route. If Engineering is researched early, this may be a good choice (for protective with stone at least), but most of the time Engineering comes close to guilds and banking (and the AI often goes for those) and thus mercantilism. Even then, assuming Liberalism beeline, Economics is then close by, obsoleting the castles.
Additionally, when Engineering comes around, you're more likely to be building units not infrastructure, and for infrastructure builds there are usually many options that end up priorized over walls+castles..

Castle is one of the weakest buildings in the game in the end. The AI does benefit from them more than the human, as most often it's the AI cities that are under attack, not human player cities - and in that case the bombard resistance requires the attacker to bring some more sieges with the stack.

 

[UncleJJ]

Further: is it true that walls and castles help your power rating? If true, this will make other civs less likely to surprise you with an attack, and a bit more likely to pay tribute.

Waldo

Walls do indeed boost your power rating but not by much and castles don't add anything in Warlords although they do in vanilla. With a power rating of 2000 soldiers walls are equivalent to a single archer. See all the factors affecting power in this excellent article; The inner workings of the Demo screen explained

I wouldn't want Sisiutil to Neglect his UU because he beelined to Liberalism, Nationhood and Gunpowder for the drafting benefits of Toku's traits.

I wasn't advocating a dedicated beeline for Nationalism and hence avoiding researching samurai although I do believe that is the best way to use Toku. The samurai is a fun unit but is rather a dead end since the upgrade to grenadier loses the free strikes, it just becomes like the standard upgraded CR3 maceman and macemen are rather redundant in the age of trebuchets as CR3 grenadiers are in the age of cannons. As I said above you could draft some samurai before Gunpowder is researched especially if we need Astronomy before a major conflict can take place ... but would you? Are they good enough at that stage of the game?

I am sure Sisiutil will steer a course that benefits both and we'll see samurai as well as the superb drafted musketmen and later rifles. The drafting cities I advocate can whip out a few samuarai for a mid game war while we research to Nationhood. I don't think Sisiutil has mastered the art of drafting yet and it is time for him to try a new approach. In this case I'm sure we can have our cake and eat it

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I wouldn't want Sisiutil to Neglect his UU because he beelined to Liberalism, Nationhood and Gunpowder for the drafting benefits of Toku's traits.

Samurai are draftable. My advice - skip gunpowder until you need it for Cavas, Grens, or Rifles.

 

[Gyathaar]

About the shale plant:
- it does not require coal to give the power
- if you later build a hydro/nuclear plant or three gorges, you get no unhealthines from the power.. and still get the +10% production bonus

 

[vormuir]

Uncle JJ, thanks for the info! So, walls help power, but not by much, and castles don't help at all. Okay.

Trade routes: while it's true that the AI civs tend to like Mercantilism, it's also true that it tends to be a passing fad. Most switch to Mercantilism when they get Banking, but about a quarter of them will move on to Free Market once they get Economics (especially Mansa and Elizabeth, for whom it's a favorite civic), and almost all of them will go to State Property once they get Communism.

This leads to a strange conclusion: castles may be most cost-effective in the late game. Build them when almost everyone has emerged from Mercantilism and trade routes are paying +10 or more. By that time most of your cities will be able to build them in two or three turns. In your larger cities, the extra trade route will be like having two or three free specialists. That's surely worth a couple of turns of production.

Don't think of them as defensive fortifications. Think of them, rather, as micro-Wonder tourist attractions! Buckingham Palace, or the castle of Mad King Ludwig in Bavaria. Or Cinderella's Castle in Disneyworld.

Final thought: he's playing a Protective leader. So, castles!


Waldo

 

[Elandal]

Because Castles are obsoleted by Economics, that requires avoiding the tech. It's certainly not impossible for a while, but eventually Economics will be needed - and if there's a free GM waiting to be snatched (depends heavily on tech paths taken and the AIs in the game), Economics may well be too juicy to pass.

Now, if the AI does grab Economics and it gets 'round, and the AIs switch to Free Market.. Then Castles provide the benefits of the civic without needing to run it. What you save there is the upkeep difference between Decentralization (Low) and Free Market (Medium). However, Assembly Line (infantry, factory, shale plant, pentagon) requires Corporation which requires Economics. Corporation also provides an added trade route, negating the loss from obsoleted castles. Jump from Economics to Corporation takes a while though, as Constitution is needed in between.

So when are Castles worth it? A few conditions:
- lifespan needs to be extended, either by researching Engineering early or delaying Economics
- enough AI cities are within trade range (on the same continent and with open borders - I'm assuming Nationalism sling with Liberalism therefore delaying Astronomy somewhat) that an extra traderoute will be foreign, not domestic (not always necessary, but not doing the math)
- there's a time when you don't have higher priority builds - a long peace when you aren't building units for the next war and have built high priority infrastructure already (this I doubt will happen)

Lifespan extension by early engineering is unlikely as machinery + CS gives us Samurai, and thus war. Engineering is probably a good idea as soon as the samurai-buildup has started, but not before.

Extension by delaying Economics is more likely to happen. It's fairly common for AI to go for guilds + banking and then Economics while the human player beelines liberalism, backfilling guilds + banking later on (these aren't needed before Replaceable Parts, and grens + cannons, maybe with cavs mixed in, are most often good enough, rifles being thus delayed a bit). If the free GM isn't hanging from the Economics tree anymore, the only benefit available will be Free Market civic. If Castles have been built, there's no gain from getting Economics and switching to Free Market - there's a small loss in higher civic upkeep instead.


With all that said, I still don't expect Castles to be built... Yes, if there's a big good coastal city that is pulling good trade income and has some free hammertime. But that's too good to be true.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Can someone confirm that castles now give +1 trade route?

Consult the book of Armaments​

Castle.iTradeRoutes = 1.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

You may as well just leave Economics if there isn't much chance of getting it first, until civs are getting Corporation and willing to trade it. Then you can trade for Economics, and next turn trade for Corporation and +1 trade routes for ALL cities, so the Castle effects are restored.

Early Engineering also opens up those sexy Trebuchets, don't forget.

 

[Eggolas]

A trade route strategy is not inconsistent with early to medieval warmongering. Depending upon the map, it may require a move to Optics to find an isolated or tech backwards civ with whom you can establish some nice trade routes. Even if the AI gets banking and makes the civ change, not all of them will do so at once. Protective may not be a strong trait, but it's certainly not useless.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the initial position and what the map looks like early.