ALC Game 12 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Tokugawa

[Winston Hughes]

Castles (plural) are rarely of any real use unless you need them for defence. A castle, on the other hand, if placed in your most powerful trade city (especially with ToA), can be very nice indeed.

The key to making loads of from trade routes is to concentrate the best routes in the best cities; but anything that gives more routes to your top city will take those routes away from lesser cities. If all of the best routes are going to your capital/ToA city, then extra routes elsewhere aren't going to be worth that much.

The castle gives you so little benefit other than the trade route (and that doesn't last), that it's usually not worth the effort to build it anywhere except the main trade-hub.

 

[cabert]

I vote for conquest!
kill'em all!

 

[dutchfire]

One thing, don't know if it has been mentioned already, Samurai need IRON, not copper.

 

[NaZdReG]

damn uncleJJ, I thought drafting was powerful but I've never abused it quite in the way you explained. I hope sisuitil follows your suggestion, it would be great to watch

NaZ

 

[JackRules]

Is there a thread or article around that explains trade routes? After ALC 11 I played as Carthage on an archipelago map and cruised into space (I'm playing at warlord level right now). Fortunately my awesome teching overcame my poor production. I built Artemis and GL and many Cothons (harbors) and probably had a ton of trade route income but really don't understand how that all works. Thanks.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I vote for conquest!
kill'em all!

Don't be silly....

First off, I will be changing from Normal to Epic speed. This is in response to ALC 11 (Carthage/Hannibal), where the UU got short shrift. I'm hoping that by using a slower game speed I'll get more of an opportunity to highlight the unique unit.

We're going for a Time victory, with the subplot of trying to ensure that the Samurai are still king of the hill when the buzzer sounds in 2050.

 

[Elandal]

If you reduce every AI to one tundra or ice city with axes (and keep them to one city from that on), will they get to gunpowder before 2050? Now THAT would be a challenge

 

[Sisiutil]

One thing to keep in mind here is that this will be a fractal map, which I understand is essentially vanilla's original continents map script.

That means we could end up on a smaller continent with one neighbour to conquer early. That would then lead to Astronomy being a higher priority than Nationalism. On the other hand, we could end up on a virtual Pangaea, which is what I've had in my last two off-line games: all the civs (including me) on one large continent while two others are off on a smaller one. That would lend itself to the Nationalism/drafting strategy being proposed. Or we could have an isolated start, again prioritizing Astronomy.

Don't get me wrong, these are all good ideas, keep them coming! We'll just have to see what the map looks like and then pick and choose from the various strategies we're throwing around--more so than on a continents map.

I did use drafting in the Carthage game, but not as ruthlessly as UncleJJ has outlined. I'd like to try that in this game, especially leveraging the Globe Theatre in a high-food city.

Castles we'll just wait and see on. I tend to find that only one or two cities really get good trade routes anyway, the capital often being one. It's too bad Castles aren't available earlier; Economics tends to follow fairly close on the heels of Engineering. If they were available with Monarchy, say, they'd have a longer lifespan.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

One thing, don't know if it has been mentioned already, Samurai need IRON, not copper.

Ironically, the Japanese developed their amazing sword-forging techniques because iron was scarce and valued.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

If you reduce every AI to one tundra or ice city with axes (and keep them to one city from that on), will they get to gunpowder before 2050? Now THAT would be a challenge

On deity they will, with speed of ~20 turns for gunpowder era techs.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I did use drafting in the Carthage game, but not as ruthlessly as UncleJJ has outlined. I'd like to try that in this game, especially leveraging the Globe Theatre in a high-food city.

What's the general sense of balance on drafting at the Globe Theatre?

Having experimented some with Heroic Theatre, and decided that it exploits a poorly implemented Globe Theatre concept, I've been assuming that using the draft in that city is similarly broken. But it isn't something I've actually looked into to a significant degree (I don't draft enough anyway to have a solid baseline of comparison).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

If you reduce every AI to one tundra or ice city with axes (and keep them to one city from that on), will they get to gunpowder before 2050? Now THAT would be a challenge

You probably need to reduce every AI city to two tundra cities, well separated, so that they get killed by the maintenance costs.

 

[uncarved block]

If the main restriction on expansion is going to be economic, it seems to me that a high priority will be finding a good commerce city site, and getting a Market or three going in the top three cities. Courthouses are good, but I'm finding, as in the earlier Civ games, that Markets are an often overlooked key to expansion. A good commerce city Market can help defray two, sometimes three captured cities, while a Market in a heavily cottaged AI capitol can have the city paying for itself almost immediately. Currency is hardly a neglected tech, sure, but IMO it's going to be the cornerstone of any Samurai powered expansion era, should one be possible--without a map to work with, general thoughts are all we can argue.

Does anyone else play with the Toroidal map option on a regular basis? I like the options they provide (the "other side of the world" is a lot closer if you can use the Y axis, for one), though the choice does seem to change the land masses dramatically. It might be too big of a change for the first ALC to use a Fractal map, but might be worth keeping in mind for a later one.

If circumstances dictate, it's worth pointing out that Grenadiers upgrade to Machine Guns-- with the Protective bonuses, you can create some really fearsome city defenders for the era if you have the $$$. (MGs upgrade to SAM Infantry, so you can get their offense back later.) A CG3 MG can mow down waves of counter-attackers while your troops heal. This may be old hat for some of you, but I only recently started warring heavily in the later game (I really like Space wins) and discovered this little trick.

So does the first installment go up tonight, Sisiutil? Given all the discussion the first couple turns generate, it seems these first couple entries in each ALC are the least time consuming, though I could be wrong.

 

[Lidjis]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster. Sisuitil, you and Aelf have tought me alot about this game, the ALC and EMC have turned me from a warlord player into a Monarch player. Anyway, I look forward to shadowing this game with you, and learning more about how to compensate for my biggest weakness, a fear of warmongering.

Anyways....I play toku rarely and I have never built a samurai, but I would recomend avoiding going to coast heavy. Coastal cities generally have less potential to become mid-late game military powerhouses and that is where toku's traits really shine.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Is there a thread or article around that explains trade routes?

This discussion gets into the mechanics of trade routes:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159047

Also, EMC3 featured a trade strategy on Warlords, and included some discussion on the subject (including a few not-entirely-accurate contributions from me):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187982

aelf's typically brilliant use of diplomacy is especially worthy of your attention, though it'll take alot of reading if you want to fully understand his approach.

 

[lilnev]

No one has mentioned one of the big advantages of playing as Tokugawa: you won't have Tokugawa as a neighbor.

How do fractal maps compare to shuffle? That's what I've been playing lately. I find them highly unpredictable.

peace,
lilnev

 

[ShredZ]

I dont think there much I can add, I think Toku is a rael lame duck, good for the AI, but bad for the Human. (good for an ALC game)

The only way I can see this game being different from the rest is if maybe you make an attempt to warmonger for more than the majority of the game.

Maybe turn on the 'no peace' button

 

[Sisiutil]

If the main restriction on expansion is going to be economic, it seems to me that a high priority will be finding a good commerce city site, and getting a Market or three going in the top three cities. Courthouses are good, but I'm finding, as in the earlier Civ games, that Markets are an often overlooked key to expansion. A good commerce city Market can help defray two, sometimes three captured cities, while a Market in a heavily cottaged AI capitol can have the city paying for itself almost immediately. Currency is hardly a neglected tech, sure, but IMO it's going to be the cornerstone of any Samurai powered expansion era, should one be possible--without a map to work with, general thoughts are all we can argue.

Does anyone else play with the Toroidal map option on a regular basis? I like the options they provide (the "other side of the world" is a lot closer if you can use the Y axis, for one), though the choice does seem to change the land masses dramatically. It might be too big of a change for the first ALC to use a Fractal map, but might be worth keeping in mind for a later one.

If circumstances dictate, it's worth pointing out that Grenadiers upgrade to Machine Guns-- with the Protective bonuses, you can create some really fearsome city defenders for the era if you have the $$$. (MGs upgrade to SAM Infantry, so you can get their offense back later.) A CG3 MG can mow down waves of counter-attackers while your troops heal. This may be old hat for some of you, but I only recently started warring heavily in the later game (I really like Space wins) and discovered this little trick.

So does the first installment go up tonight, Sisiutil? Given all the discussion the first couple turns generate, it seems these first couple entries in each ALC are the least time consuming, though I could be wrong.

I'm fond of CoL slingshots because courthouses are more valuable the earlier you get them. Early cities with young cottages have little commerce for a market to multiply. And, of course, courthouses save a few GPT in a non-commerce city. And if you get them in place early enough you can build the cost-reducing Forbidden Palace, too. But you're right, markets are very valuable in any commerce city, and I often leave them too late. With Toku's lack of economic advantages, I'll have to prioritize them. I think careful city specialization is the key to success here, along with a little

Refresh my memory--is the Toroidal map the one with the poles on the ends instead of the top? I'll have to try one in an off-line game first to see what that's like and if my brain can handle the change in perspective.

The first couple of rounds are indeed very quick for me to start and post, so the effort is indeed inversely proportional to the amount of discussion that ensues. I'll see about getting the start posted tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

 

[indianer]

Toroidal wraps around in all directions... think donut, for which toroid is but a fancy word

Instead of the poles being barred by ice, you can move directly from north pole to south pole just as if you were moving from west to east.

 

[LosBlack]

Toroidal wraps around in all directions... think donut, for which toroid is but a fancy word

Instead of the poles being barred by ice, you can move directly from north pole to south pole just as if you were moving from west to east.

poor guy, getting schooled on 3-D geometries..who's the teacher now, Sisiutil?!?! not that i can talk, being 29 and still in school myslef, but c'mon, spatial relations here! be the donut..ne-ne-ne-ne-ne..weren't you an english major or something?

never played on Epic speed before, looking forward to the new thread. try not to obsolete the Samurai too quickly.

*edit* on that line of thinking: will you intentionally put off gunpowder units just to keep the Samurai around for longer? please say no..