ALC Game 12 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Tokugawa

from elandal: "If you reduce every AI to one tundra or ice city with axes (and keep them to one city from that on), will they get to gunpowder before 2050? Now THAT would be a challenge"

from VoiceOfUnreason"You probably need to reduce every AI city to two tundra cities, well separated, so that they get killed by the maintenance costs."

that is beautiful. that made me laugh so hard it scared my dogs. the plans you two come up with! ps don't forget to build versailles yourself to keep it away from their filthy hands :crazyeye: .

from lilnev: "No one has mentioned one of the big advantages of playing as Tokugawa: you won't have Tokugawa as a neighbor"

i sometimes do pick who to play next based on who ticked me off lately. yesterday hubby called from work RIGHT after something bad had happened. he said 'hi honey how are you?' my answer was 'mehmed just pissed me the m&therf*&( off!!!'. he could barely stop laughing enough to mention that to his boss, who plays civ sometimes too. but he'd asked how i was, that was the answer. well and truly pissed!!!!!! ps i got my revenge.
 
I'd like to throw my support behind a beeline to samurai and then much wailing and smashing of enemies.

It plays right into your civ's strengths; an excellent military. Samurai are incredibly effective from the instant you get them up through musketmen. (str 9 vs str 8.8 and 2 first strikes...and the samurai is 10 :hammers: cheaper) The archery units (longbows and crossbows) you'll be using to defend your ill-gotten gains are also more effective. All of this means that your military will either be smaller than a typical military in the middle ages or significantly more effective. That saves you :gold: in unit upkeep. Furthermore, the first strikes means your mainline offensive units take less damage, so waste less time healing. If you're doing a lot of fighting, you'll likely have a couple of GG's. Using the first one or two on medic 3 units means you might have a turn, two tops healing after each enemy city before you move on. The extras can go towards MIs, which will make your eventual gunpowder armies simply unfair. Six promotions out of the gate on a rifleman? That's a touch obscene, and easy to get - barracks, MI, vassalage/theocracy. Yeah, yeah, I know running both vassalage and theocracy is lame...but it's so much fun! CG 3, Drill 1, Pinch, Combat 1 riflemen are also almost impossible to displace from cities, and give even artillery and infantry a run for their money. This means you can hang onto your conquered cities for a long time to come.

As far as medieval offenses goes, I'd smash at least one civ, preferably one and a half or two. One and a half means finishing somebody with gunpowder units. Maybe you could kill one with samurai and then build up your cats to move onto the second; if you move quickly enough off your beeline, you might not need cats/trebs to take out one AI, although I don't know how that'll go at Monarch.

By the time you finish your medieval offenses, you should be big and bad, and poised to transition to a building period, defending your territories with ridiculously over-promoted units; both vets and newly built riflemen/grenadiers.

Another option is to take out one civ early in the middle ages; either starting with axemen moving to samurai ASAP, or just samurai, (I'd say samurai) then wounding another civ and vassalizing it. If you vassalize a nice techy AI; Mansa, Liz, Washington, though Gandhi would be best, you can extort techs from them for a long time to come. That can help you get out of the tech deficit such a large military effort can get you in.

On second thought, take out the peaceful civ first, and vasselize them. If you take the feudalism route to civil service, that gives you very nice options for putting together your army. Since you won’t have taken over too many of their cities, you won't need courthouses as badly. Plus, you can backfill CoL while smashing faces. Then get the vassal civ in on your second offensive; against another nearby neighbor, to get some shared military struggle bonuses going with your vassal. I find happy vassals are much more productive than angry vassals, and the keys to that are sharing a religion and sharing wars. Unfortunately, I can't think of any civs who have really high shared religion modifiers and are also relatively tech/trade emphasized. Brennus I know has an amazingly high shared religion modifier, (he was friendly with me while I was crushing his empire; +7 shared religion, which was really nice post-vassalization) but I don't recall how crazy he is about techs and trading.

This strategy also has the bonus that you can probably extort construction from the peaceful civ you vasselize, giving you the tools for your second offensive, and the lack of catapults wont hurt as much since a more peace-mongering opponent will be easier to knock over in the early game (Gandhi builds a big army in the modern age, sure...but early? not so much).

Relatively early offenses also have the benefit that they'll help you deal with the whims of the map generator. You'll want to do some serious exploring to find prime victims and determine what kind of map you're on, and then the war gives you a chance to grab weird sites fractal has set up which can be advantageous.

A couple of key concerns.
First, make absolutely sure you get iron. Samurai are incredible and you want them. If you only have copper, find someone with iron and destroy them. Salt their land. Crush their homes. Level their temples. Et cetera.

Second, don't worry too much if your economy looks like it will tank. Remember back on ALC 10 when everyone was wailing over the GNP graph? GNP only gives commerce. It doesn't pay any attention to beakers brought in from, say, specialists. Which are really nice. An SE, for instance, might make a lot of sense (more on that later).

Third, don't get distracted. ALC 11 you got a bit distracted about war what with the NCs sucking and all. Samurai are amazing. You want them. Don't forget it. As tasty as the great library is, or other cool things on that tech tree, I think you've gotten a little dependent on them. Try something new! When was the last time you went for CS via feudalism? Or, really, saw anyone else do that? Remember; things like the GL, or even liberalism, are not necessary for victory. They're sure nice, but you can get by without them. If you want them, make sure the opportunity cost is worth it.

So, my last comment is about the idea of a SE. You may not be philosophical, but SE can still be really cool. It also means you can run a lower science slider and still get techs decently, (bulb and trade; higher diff means more AI techs for trading) which supports your warmongery ways. I think you should go for an SE for a couple of reasons. It gets more effective at higher difficulties, primarily because of AI trading, so as you move up, I'd try to get used to it. (I shouldn't talk too much about that, though, as I primarily play noble & prince) Second, SE means you don't have to fuss as much about your lack of economic civ traits. Third, it's more flexible with regards to whipping, which also dovetails with a military offense. Fourth, it means you can grab one or two good GP farms, then focus the rest of your empire on other (military) concerns, which also has synergy with warmongeryness.

The only thing I'd watch out for with the SE is the tendency to go the upper tech path for philosophy for pacifism. I'm not worried about running pacifism; I'm worried about getting distracted from samurai. GET SAMURAI FIRST. At the same time, though, I don't think pacifism will hurt you as much as it normally would. The big cost is a large military. Sure, you're going to want a big military, but it'll be okay. Two reasons. First, you'll have a smaller military than most for it's strength (not power, as promos don't count there) since your units get so many promotions and are so nice and smashy. Second, conquest earns you cash as you conquer cities. This can be used in the short run to pay off the city maintenance and the pacifism upkeep. Pacifism's strength is short-ish bursts to grab a couple of quick GPs, and this again has synergy with the quick bursts of war cash. (also if you extort peace from the civ, that can be sweet)

An interesting diplomatic trick could be multiple peace settlements with your second opponent. It'll get you more cash in peace settlements, and more shared military struggle bonuses. If you're planning on exterminating the civ, then the diplo penalties won't be too bad so long as you aren't planning on being friends with any of the victim's friends.

Anyways, that's the long, really rambly way that I say, "Crush, maim, destroy!"

C'mon! You know you want another conquest victory, right? And if you're feeling pansy-enough to go for a space race victory, you can use shale plants to get some extra boosts in that direction. All your traits point towards early warmongering and later building. Sure you have those tasty gunpowder units, but they can just be used for a second or third batch of warmongeryness. As if that's a bad thing!
 
Yeah, Sisiutil, I realized a couple minutes after posting that it might sound as if I was advocating skipping Courthouses altogether. (As always, the fault is mine.) The discussion about the allocation of Hammers, though, for the Globe and Castles started me thinking about the relative values of Markets vs Courthouses. (Checks Civ manual, notices Courthouses were left off the list.) At 120 Hammers for a Courthouse against 150 for the Market, circumstances would seem to dictate which building goes up first. I would note two things: you'll be going to war just about the time your cottages really start maturing, and also that the AI loves to cottage its first 2-3 cities (cottaged Hills? Really?) By the time your Samurai show up, those cities should be ripe for a Market.

Toroidal maps are easy to get used to, though having to go north-south as well as east-west for the circumnavigation bonus takes a couple times through to feel "right". I don't play Fractal maps, but did note that on Hub maps going Toroidal seemed to stretch things east-west quite a bit. It's really handy on Oasis and Lakes maps, though, because leaders like Monty or Gandhi can't just sit on the other side of the map and use distance as protection. But I digress . . .
 
poor guy, getting schooled on 3-D geometries..who's the teacher now, Sisiutil?!?! not that i can talk, being 29 and still in school myslef, but c'mon, spatial relations here! be the donut..ne-ne-ne-ne-ne..weren't you an english major or something?
Yes. And we didn't talk much about spatial relations in my English classes.

But I can parse those messy sentences for you, if you'd like... ;)
 
The first couple of rounds are indeed very quick for me to start and post, so the effort is indeed inversely proportional to the amount of discussion that ensues. I'll see about getting the start posted tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

Sounds like a plan.

I just started a game using Tok on same map kind (not warlords though) and i'm on a quite large island by myself, not played it much but size of it should give 8-10 cities so will be hard to make use of UU, I hope your map is kinder. Keeping up in tech without trading could be hard, so caravel is early on my tech list to get, its something to consider.

Without knowing its a "continents/balanced" map its hard to really plan anything beyond general ideas/aims when the map could give anything.
 
Sounds like a plan.

I just started a game using Tok on same map kind (not warlords though) and i'm on a quite large island by myself, not played it much but size of it should give 8-10 cities so will be hard to make use of UU, I hope your map is kinder. Keeping up in tech without trading could be hard, so caravel is early on my tech list to get, its something to consider.

Without knowing its a "continents/balanced" map its hard to really plan anything beyond general ideas/aims when the map could give anything.
In that circumstance, I agree the UU would likely go to waste unless you get another continent within pre-astronomy reach like I did in the Incan game. But in those circumstances I would probably try to bee-line to Astronomy (maybe through Liberalism if I thought I stood a chance), then build Galleons and gunpowder units to take someone on.
 
@Melon Head, feudalism route to Civil Service is kind of a Breaker waste because AIs reseach that tech relatively early and it is quite an expensive tech... probably as expensive as Civil Service. Beelining to Civil Service through a cheaper Route would generally be the better choice, Sisiutil wants those Sumarai ASAP

Here's a Idea to Lightbulb CS... but it requires at least 2 Great Prophets, Use the Oracle to Either Theology or COLs and Lightbulb your 1st Great Prophet on watever tech you've missed eg-(COLs or Theo) Once you have Maths, Lighbulb CS. Rememeber to Ignore Monarchy or you'll go down the Divine Right Route.


A SE introduced by Melon Head is actually a good Idea... I've Heard that this economy is MUCH MORE Synergetic to Mass Drafting for the war Effort, I Don't have much detail about it because I havn't tried this out. Maybe Someone else on this thread will have more information on the synergy of SE & Drafting
 
Well, at least at first glance it clearly has more synergy. For a SE to work well you need big cities (to work food tiles + specialists instead of cottages) so when you start drafting you'll have where to draft from. Plus you can grow back to size faster with the high food tiles. And you don't lose "cottage growth" time, whenever you grow back to size you have the full advantage of the tile/specialist you've been working, nothing more nothing less.
 
If circumstances dictate, it's worth pointing out that Grenadiers upgrade to Machine Guns-- with the Protective bonuses, you can create some really fearsome city defenders for the era if you have the $$$. (MGs upgrade to SAM Infantry, so you can get their offense back later.) A CG3 MG can mow down waves of counter-attackers while your troops heal. This may be old hat for some of you, but I only recently started warring heavily in the later game (I really like Space wins) and discovered this little trick.

The main reason for not upgrading grens to mgs is that the veteran grens are most likely CR-promoted (with maybe some Drill-grens from crossbow line mixed in). CR is useless for mg, and they can get Drill so the extra value of inaccessible promotion is lost with xbow -> gren -> mg promotion line.

MGs are good in some cases - eg. Drill-mg is good stack defender (and CG MGs are good city defenders). But little additional value can be gathered from upgrading gren to drill. In case of Tokugawa, it might be worth training some grens and upgrading them to MGs though, as grens get the full agg/prot free promotion set which MGs don't get. This applies to grens trained, not veteran samurai-come-grens though.

On fractal maps again: I did roll some starts with Tokugawa on fractal map, but yet again the RNG clearly interpreted my wishes and avoided giving me that.. I got total isolation, I got pangaea, but I didn't get a single "continents with islands" maps which is what I most would like to see. Same RNG-luck was apparent earlier when I had decided to play Qin and spent an hour rolling for stone in capitol before giving up - I definitelly got good starts, marbelous starts, and so on, but not a single stone. Of course I did get stone for half of my Tokugawa rolls when that wasn't what I was looking for from the map..
 
No one has mentioned one of the big advantages of playing as Tokugawa: you won't have Tokugawa as a neighbor.:D
Could be worse...could be Isabella!!

I don't have much to suggest, since I'm a builder/peacemonger and therefore rarely play any civ that doesn't have Ind, Fin, or Phi as a trait...however, I have been experimenting with Aggressive civs played with a peaceful/build strategy, and with Tokugawa, you pretty much have to go to war. (He's actually quite good for early commerce, thanks to quick pottery access, but as a builder he sucks.)

In other words, you might want to quiet your Wonder-building side...Oracle is always good, and maybe the Great Lighthouse if you start on the coast, but forget the rest. Great Library? Pshaw...take it from whoever builds it. :lol:

On a historical note...I checked Wikipedia, and learned that Shōgun was loosely based on the life of the real Ieyasu Tokugawa (he was Lord Toranaga in the novel/miniseries.) I never knew that before!

P.S. Forgot to add...Macemen/Samurai don't obsolete until Rifling.
 
Maces (as well as Berserkers and Samurai - had to check XML as I had already made a mistake with Praetorians) upgrade to rifles and grens. A unit is obseleted (in the sense that you can't build one) when you can build all units it upgrades to. Therefore, Samurai are obsoleted (can't be built) when you can build both grens and rifles. Generally this means rifles indeed - chemistry is often a better deal to go for first, especially as it opens steel (and thus cannons).

Wonders.. Oracle benefits only the one who builds it (free tech - unless you count the 2GPP that you can get by capturing as well), so often it's a good one to go for. Great Library is best in a city that can run more scientists, so it's often good to build it yourself as you never know which city the AI builds it in. But for most parts it doesn't really matter which city a wonder is in, so capturing is just as good as building.
Just remember that nobody can guarantee that a neighbour of yours is going to build GL. If it's built on another continent in the far reaches of the world, it's going to be obsolete before you capture it. Of course same holds for other wonders as well - if you really want it, you have to build it, having it conveniently built by your neighbour is lucky.
 
Oh for crying out loud, can we get the show on the road :p :p :p I want to see the start for some major philosophing on what to do. I like the starts the best and everybodies thoughts on it.
 
Well, at least at first glance it clearly has more synergy. For a SE to work well you need big cities (to work food tiles + specialists instead of cottages) so when you start drafting you'll have where to draft from. Plus you can grow back to size faster with the high food tiles. And you don't lose "cottage growth" time, whenever you grow back to size you have the full advantage of the tile/specialist you've been working, nothing more nothing less.
You can draft fine with cottages, especially since the optimal size to draft at is around 6-8. Ideally you want your city to grow back the 2-pop lost every draft cycle in time to be hit again (and smaller cities well under your happy cap can be drafted more regularly without worrying about unhappiness).

Cottage enough squares that the city can work them all when not drafting for a bit of a commerce boost, with farms/high food everywhere else. When you draft you'll lose some commerce, but the gain in hammers and military might offset that nicely. These cities don't need any production to speak of since you can build any necessary infrastructure with the whip thanks to the food available. Since you shouldn't be drafting your best, biggest cities unless you really need to (pre biology they'll likely grow back slower costing your economy more in the meantime) any overall hit to your research is fairly well absorbed.
 
Of course same holds for other wonders as well - if you really want it, you have to build it, having it conveniently built by your neighbour is lucky.

Stone Thrower's gambit: send him Alphabet, send him Literature, send him Marble, send him Maces, War Elephants, and Catapults.
 
Possible, but it's a gambit. Better chance if the neighbour is wonderhappy one (eg. not Monty).
 
@Melon Head, feudalism route to Civil Service is kind of a Breaker waste because AIs reseach that tech relatively early and it is quite an expensive tech... probably as expensive as Civil Service. Beelining to Civil Service through a cheaper Route would generally be the better choice, Sisiutil wants those Sumarai ASAP

Darn, I hadn't really taken tech costs into account, as I simply have so rarely researched feudalism myself that it hasn't really sunk in yet. Oh well. I stand by the rest of my advice, and I for one would love to see some skilled vassal use, as I haven't really been able to get the system to work to my advantage.
 
Protective crossbowmen are fairly potent with that extra free strike. Since you'll need machinery for your UU, it might not be a bad idea to research machiery early and start building some crossbowmen. You can wage a pretty effective war with just crossbowmen and siege weapons...your only threat would be mounted units which will probably come a little later due to all the tech and resource requirements. I like to build a couple crossbowmen with nothing but free strike promotions. Then by the time you get all the tech done for samuri you'll have an effective crossbowmen army and you wont have to "lose" any of your more expensive UU to deal with macemen because the crossbowmen will chew them up.

Protective crossbowmen are underrated but very effective...and basically the only archery unit worth a darn in offensive combat. I think its a waste if you are Protective and only build a couple longbowmen for defense. Why wait till gunpowder for buffed offensive units when you dont have to?
 
Elandal, it's admittedly a niche option. Usually that's a down time for warring, with Infantry so close and Tanks not far behind them. But as the last ALC showed, sometimes wars last a lot longer than expected, and those extra six points of strength are worth sacrificing the offensive option of a few Grenadiers. I often have a few defensive Grenadiers wandering around, mainly because it's very annoying to work up to a CR3 Gren only to have it wiped out while recovering from taking a city :mad:

If the game plan is war, war, and maybe a little war after that, then the chances Sisiutil might actually use this option seemed higher than normal, especially with the change to Epic speed. Whether or not there will be Gold enough to afford the upgrade remains to be seen.
 
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