ALC Game 13 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Mansa Musa

[Sisiutil]

It's been interesting to read comments about how Mansa's starting techs don't really go with his traits or UU. The truth is, a lot of Civs are like that in some form.

In playing as Hatty, you get tech that allow you to get a jump on your UU, but not to found an early religion (and Hatty is Spiritual). Play as Alex, and you get a leg up in your UU race, but still need two more techs on top of that. Those are just two examples.

To me, prioritizing techs is all about knowing what the lay of the land is and going from there.

For those who say Wheel is meaningless early on, what should happen if the starting spot does not have a river? Answer: Only Roads can get resources to the capital. And again, Wheel is half the Pottery equation, and you bet you want Pottery for a Financial civ.

It's also important to note that Sisuitil always tries to play to the traits of the civ in his challenges. Sticking with the same strategy over and over means he isn't doing this. As good as "produce, produce, produce" can be for an early strat, if it's the same thing done in every ALC, then what's the point in doing it? We all know then what to expect. A little variety can be a good thing.

Maybe one of these days somebody needs to take up a challenge of "you can't enact slavery at any time, no whipping allowed." I wonder how many people are game for that at a high difficulty level.

AAAHHH!!! Play without my beloved whip? Surely you jest!

As I said earlier, with Tokugawa, I went after Archery early to take advantage of the Protective trait. With Mansa I'll go after it early to take advantage of the UU. Same diff, same ultimate goal: leverage the leader's characteristics rather than trying for a cookie-cutter strategy every time.

One of the advantages of not jumping a level just yet is that I'm confident enough now on Monarch to feel like I can stray from a tried-and-true strategy. We tried that with Hannibal and found his UU to be difficult to access and therefore leverage; we tried it with Toku and it worked out great, revealing an underestimated strength of the much-maligned protective trait. Who knows what we'll find out about the Skirmishers? We have to try.

So a good point there, and another good one about the various leaders and their characteristics. I often have to assume that the game designers knew what they were doing when they game most of the leaders non-synergistic trait, UU, UB, and opening tech combinations. Just as an example, I've heard rumours that Caesar initially had the Aggressive trait, but that (obviously) made the Praetorians ridiculously overpowered. He was given Organized and Expansive (in vanilla)--hardly powerful traits for a warmonger--for game balance reasons. It's the same reason so few of the leaders have a UB that their traits also make cheap (only Frederick and Shaka, IIRC).

That being said, they still screwed up with the Celts. Why give the UU a free promotion that the UB also grants for free?

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

This is more about fractal maps in general than about MM, but something to keep in mind: Optics. The benefits of caravels are obvious when you get an isolated start, but even if you don't, there are still 2 huge reasons why you want to get them ASAP (preferably first):

- Isolated AIs. They often tend to be backwards in tech (and thus not contenders to win, anyways), but relatively high in population. "Trading" them an old, obsolete tech for 10 gold nets an instant +4, and may come in extremely handy in the event that Diplo becomes a viable victory.

- Goody huts. Fractal maps tend to produce a few isolated little islands. The last fractal game I played, I popped Astronomy. Unfortunately, sometimes you'll also find barbs camping on the huts, so you have to wait for galleons to be able to transport an offensive unit.

 

[uncarved block]

Sisiutil, thanks for the long response. I was unclear in my original post, and maybe made it sound as if I never built Forges. I do, and for all the excellent reasons you note. The problem I have is that they come at an awkward time, or at least seem to, since I don't race for MC. I'm either trying to consolidate the gains of an early war, or building up to get some land ("land is power!") via war so that I can pull ahead of the AIs. Simply put, by the time MC rolls around, I seem to be either building Markets and Courthouses, or units. Add in a tendency to switch to Caste System fairly early, and run Pacifism as much as possible too (I play as Saladin, or some other religion geared leader quite often) and the prospect of spending all those turns for a Forge to shave a couple turns off of later buildings becomes less appealing. If I had to pick a word for it, I'd pick "pace"-- you seem to pull things off ten or even twenty turns before I'd even think about it. (Which helps explain the difference in difficulty levels.) One more reason I'm looking forward to studying the saves from this ALC, to pick up tips at playing in ways that don't come easily or naturally. (Macemen once came at an awkward time for me as well, but that pacing "problem" was solved rather quickly )

Thanks again, but I've got a game up where Catherine has just gotten Cossacks. Time to give Kublai a beat down, methinks . . .

 

[Sisiutil]

This is more about fractal maps in general than about MM, but something to keep in mind: Optics. The benefits of caravels are obvious when you get an isolated start, but even if you don't, there are still 2 huge reasons why you want to get them ASAP (preferably first):

- Isolated AIs. They often tend to be backwards in tech (and thus not contenders to win, anyways), but relatively high in population. "Trading" them an old, obsolete tech for 10 gold nets an instant +4, and may come in extremely handy in the event that Diplo becomes a viable victory.

- Goody huts. Fractal maps tend to produce a few isolated little islands. The last fractal game I played, I popped Astronomy. Unfortunately, sometimes you'll also find barbs camping on the huts, so you have to wait for galleons to be able to transport an offensive unit.

Good points, but map dependent. In my two most recent off-line games (as Augustus and Ramesses), my fractal map was a pseudo-pangaea, with one big continent and one smaller one accessible via galleys. Optics, Caravels, the circumnavigation race, and even Astronomy became much lower priorities.

As for better results from late huts--this is why I save a Scout, if possible.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

AAAHHH!!! Play without my beloved whip? Surely you jest!

As I said earlier, with Tokugawa, I went after Archery early to take advantage of the Protective trait. With Mansa I'll go after it early to take advantage of the UU. Same diff, same ultimate goal: leverage the leader's characteristics rather than trying for a cookie-cutter strategy every time.

One of the advantages of not jumping a level just yet is that I'm confident enough now on Monarch to feel like I can stray from a tried-and-true strategy. We tried that with Hannibal and found his UU to be difficult to access and therefore leverage; we tried it with Toku and it worked out great, revealing an underestimated strength of the much-maligned protective trait. Who knows what we'll find out about the Skirmishers? We have to try.

So a good point there, and another good one about the various leaders and their characteristics. I often have to assume that the game designers knew what they were doing when they game most of the leaders non-synergistic trait, UU, UB, and opening tech combinations. Just as an example, I've heard rumours that Caesar initially had the Aggressive trait, but that (obviously) made the Praetorians ridiculously overpowered. He was given Organized and Expansive (in vanilla)--hardly powerful traits for a warmonger--for game balance reasons. It's the same reason so few of the leaders have a UB that their traits also make cheap (only Frederick and Shaka, IIRC).

That being said, they still screwed up with the Celts. Why give the UU a free promotion that the UB also grants for free?

Because the UB doesn't effect Melee units
If it did, it'd be a lot better....even if it was just like having drill for Gunpowder for Protective on melee units. The Warriors start with it though. You'll get to the Celts....eventually...

 

[jerVL/kg]

It's been interesting to read comments about how Mansa's starting techs don't really go with his traits or UU.

In my opinion, that's what makes playing Mansa so much fun -- there's no obvious strategy for the early game, so he's inherently flexible. You can beeline Skirmishers and attempt an early rush; or pick up pottery quick & start cottaging; or do the MC Oracle slingshot; or, with a high-commerce start, take a stab at grabbing one or two early religions! The sky's the limit with Mansa, and if one strategy doesn't work out, it's not so painful to switch gears and try something else.

Anyway. I'll begin the game and post the start tonight.

Woot! Let's hope for a sweet start like the last game!

 

[Sisiutil]

The game is afoot!

 

[Sisiutil]

Sisiutil, thanks for the long response. I was unclear in my original post, and maybe made it sound as if I never built Forges. I do, and for all the excellent reasons you note. The problem I have is that they come at an awkward time, or at least seem to, since I don't race for MC. I'm either trying to consolidate the gains of an early war, or building up to get some land ("land is power!") via war so that I can pull ahead of the AIs. Simply put, by the time MC rolls around, I seem to be either building Markets and Courthouses, or units. Add in a tendency to switch to Caste System fairly early, and run Pacifism as much as possible too (I play as Saladin, or some other religion geared leader quite often) and the prospect of spending all those turns for a Forge to shave a couple turns off of later buildings becomes less appealing. If I had to pick a word for it, I'd pick "pace"-- you seem to pull things off ten or even twenty turns before I'd even think about it. (Which helps explain the difference in difficulty levels.) One more reason I'm looking forward to studying the saves from this ALC, to pick up tips at playing in ways that don't come easily or naturally. (Macemen once came at an awkward time for me as well, but that pacing "problem" was solved rather quickly )

Thanks again, but I've got a game up where Catherine has just gotten Cossacks. Time to give Kublai a beat down, methinks . . .

We cross-posted and I missed this before.

Remember that the forges come along at a time when your cities are growing and often struggling with the happiness cap. Provided you've accessed a precious metal or two, they'll lift it. That means bigger cities and more citizens working tiles, which in turn means more hammers and faster builds. So it ain't just a couple of turns we're talking about here, potentially, especially when you factor in whipping and/or chopping too. Forges are hugely beneficial, though that's hard to quantify (though I'm sure someone like VoU could and has--he's one of many in past games, IIRC, who urged me to build forges once I was able to do so).