ALC Game 13 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Mansa Musa

[carl corey]

The only question I have about Hunting -> BW is if you can get the first Settler to go to the copper site. It's a little late for me to think about how things are working on Epic, but you probably can do that, so including Hunting for a scout/resource can't be bad. I guess we'd have to wait for the map to give a more precise answer. Of course, if you don't have a close neighbor then you won't build tons of Axes anyway.

As for mints, I agree you should build them in most cities. I'm only wondering if you'll actually be able to build them that early, that's all.

Forgot: you're spiritual, so you can switch to slavery right away without a penalty. Another point for early BW.

 

[Gwil]

if there were a dearth of precious metals within your 3/4/5 city plan, i'd deviate to try a CoL approach - the mints can come after the first war, and Confucianism is nicely placed to make an easy spread to all the cities you found after it's discovery. Add in the fact it'll be in your 3rd/4th city, you have a nice plump turkey sitting with the capital and 2nd city.

 

[jerVL/kg]

if there were a dearth of precious metals within your 3/4/5 city plan, i'd deviate to try a CoL approach - the mints can come after the first war, and Confucianism is nicely placed to make an easy spread to all the cities you found after it's discovery. Add in the fact it'll be in your 3rd/4th city, you have a nice plump turkey sitting with the capital and 2nd city.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it's better to go for a COL Oracle sling -- in most cities, the mints won't give that much extra gold, but they'll be great for holy shrines. And, unlike the previous ALC, you can't guarantee the AI to found so many holy cities conveniently next to you.

In fact...ever consider a Philosophy slingshot? It's tricky, not sure it's doable on Monarch, but it will score you two religions & possibly a third, if you're lucky!

 

[Galileo44]

What about a Philosophy slingshot would be difficult on Monarch? I can do it easily on Emperor, and I know that far better players than me can do it on Immortal or Deity. It would be a good idea though, it would net you another religion to spread and make a shrine for.

 

[Preston85]

First tech should be whatever resource needs connecting in your capital as always.

Then go for COL with Oracle slingshot. Gives access to temples, gives you a realistic chance of a early-ish religion, can reasearch BW early and hopefully get copper. I can't see you getting one of the first 3 religions without hurting your early development, christian/islamic are to late for my liking.

Best thing you could probably hope for is Elephants in the capital to give you good reason to research Hunting otherwise I can't see much of a point with BW so close. Without the need for camps I don't know how you can fit in the UU considering the "best" research plans, unless theres no bronze nearby that is.

 

[NaZdReG]

damn the pace of the ALC is awesome sisuitil thank you!!

yeah hunting and archery1!! archers are underrated darnit . I made my case and it proved itself last game, glad to see you already thinking in that direction.

financial almost discourages use of slavery because it takes away from running cottages.. but I suck at those kind of debates so up to you. definately run a CE, don't worry about early religion one will spread to you or you will end up with taoism if you pop a GS on philo on your way to liberalism.

cant wait to see the opening position!

NaZ

 

[Mutineer]

Well, I add my 2 cents.

I allways hate financial leaders. They just do not work well on highers levels.
problem is, financial is later game trat.
Early on I want production, production, production.
That mean slavery or mines. No cottagess, no warter ties to make use of financial.
Second thin I want early on are Great people, for lignulbing for trade. Again, use financial trait or hire spesialist. One can not do bouth.

Saying that the best start i develop for financial was:

1). Happiness abow else as early as posible.

Financial need max pop posible, to grow cottages and to have production form mines at the same time. So, one can have chouse, monarchy or dramma.

Bouth have there pluses. For Masta I would suggest monarchy. He is spiritual, so Monarchy with it relation to religious tech are more sutable for him. Grow capital as fast as posible with military police. Cootage capital, use useal Coottage economy strat of running to burocracy. Spend first or second GS for academy.
Expand fast, use your outside cities for production and GP generation.
This plan tend to work good with Mali.
So, use oracle for monarchy or if opportunity exits(other source of commerce around) for Feodalism.

Beeline to Burocracy after.

2) Cottage economy tech trading strat. it should be different from other. You can rely more on self research, because of your trat and strat used. So, trading for cheap tech become extrimelly wasterfull.
Trade ONLY for Most expencive tech and only for one you need and can not research with Max discount.
If trade offer Math + archery, take only Math. self research archery. (This is only an example).

Try to reach renesance age with out hitting WFUBTA limit.

Use GP to ligthbuld most expecive tech for trade or to run to sertan tech.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The biggest advantage of starting with The Wheel is you don't have to waste time researching it later.

That's what I said. I was simply more verbose. As usual.

Really? Because I thought it sounded a great deal like what I said.

Which of the starting techs don't include the advantage that you don't have to waste time researching it later? Agriculture, and Hunting. That's it. So if this is the Biggest advantage you have from the Wheel, I think you ought to concede that it's a bottom line starting tech, not "one of the most useful".

"Six thousand year old civilization, and that's the best you can come up with? Stop wasting my time." R. O'Bannon

OK, it's expensive - therefore starting with Wheel gives you more than your fair share of beakers.

 

[vra379971]

I do a GL/Sankore/Minaret combination...makes the combo much more powerful with early scientists.

 

[aelf]

Are you serious about the Sankore/Minaret combo? It's not going to be easy, especially if you're not Industrious. It was quite a nail biter in EMC2. That was on Emperor, but it was before the AI improvements and using an Industrious leader.

It'd be interesting to see how it works out for your game, though. This will be like the combination of EMC1 & 2 Don't worry, I don't think that detracts from the originality of your thread. After all, there's bound to be some overlap after so many ALC games.

 

[Mutineer]

I would suggest to avoide wanders that relying on many and expencive wanders. You are not industrious. I would suggest to implement my strat. In my believe it is mach more connected to financial/spiritual combo then any other.

 

[vormuir]

"Hunting -> BW -> Archery if there's a campable resource near the start, or BW first if there isn't?"

Getting distracted already? That was quick...

Hunting is a fast cheap tech. You'll probably have it before you've produced your first worker. So I don't really see the point of going to BW immediately after that. Maybe if you're surrounded by so much forest that you can chop-rush a Scout. But otherwise, that early there's no harm in waiting a few turns.

I'd suggest either Hunting -> Archery, or Hunting -> X -> Archery, where X is either Agriculture or AH, depending on what's in your fat cross.

I admit: I really want to see Mansa's UU get a workout. Skirmishers are popular in multiplayer games, but I see a lot of people curling their lips at them in single-player. Maybe they're right, but still.

As for the Wheel: VoU is a vastly better player than me (I haven't won a game at Monarch yet), but come on... the wheel gives your worker something to do and gives your units a crucial early movement boost. Having roads built early means your workers zip around faster, your military units can use central lines against the barbs, and your settlers will found new cities a turn or two earlier than otherwise. Little things, but over time they add up.

I wouldn't call the Wheel a /fantastic/ starting tech, but I definitely wouldn't ***** about it.


Waldo

 

[vormuir]

Random note about Mansa: if you want to get an idea of what life was like in his time, go find the story "Dinner in Audoghast" by Bruce Sterling. It's in his collection _Crystal Express_. (Doesn't seem to be available online, alas.)


Waldo

 

[Sabertooth]

Well, speaking of course as a complete novice in this company...

First of, you've got to be f-ing kidding me! You've never played Mansa before? Man are you in for a treat...he's great!!!

I agree with VoUR that Mansa's early-game “synergy” is not the best. I think you've basically got to make a decision between going for the UU or going for an early religion, which also plays to Mansa's strengths. But regarding the idea of going directly to BW, I feel that in the early game you can use skirmishers rather than Axemen to great advantage. Skirmishers are cheap, nearly as tough, and an effective defense against barbs. So nabbing archery early will give you a strong defensive unit to start with, and thereby arguably relieve you from the pressure of pushing for BW prematurely. In other words, you can use skirmishers as a kind of replacement for axes while you pursue a couple of other necessary techs before going after BW.

I personally suspect that if you try to combine BW with your UU you'll probably have to give up all hope of nabbing an early religion. But if by chance you do manage to research Hunting – BW – Archery – Mysticism – Hinduism (for example), you do so at the cost of significantly slowing your growth and financial development. It seems to me, bootstrapped as Mansa is in relation between starting techs and traits, that you might could try something like: Hunting – Agriculture/Mysticism – Archery, and then from there beeline towards either Pottery or an early religion. After that you'll have plenty of time to grab BW and go beat up on a neighbor or two, and BW comes fast with financial, since that trait usually translates into a significant research advantage.

 

[kniteowl]

Sounds like almost Everybody has already said what I'd Say.

yes Bronze Working First unless you very low on forest... I mean Bronze Working is one of the most overpowered Early techs you can get, Chopping/Copper/Slavery/Axes ALL in one tech... and some people here want to divert their research on hunting and archery (dead end tech) ... Please don't repeat the mistakes of your Hannibal game. Although Hunting 1st if you have a hunting resource is all good.

LOL Funny That people mentioned going after the Pyramids... extremely powerful with the spiritual trait where you can constantly switch civics, Police State when your at war, Representation or Monarchy when at peace and once you've got a GM on a trade Mission... extra Cash to Rush that unit or wonder. Although I'd prefer it if you used that 500 Hammers to rush your closest AI with a Holy City with Axes, Be careful of chariot though... maybe Hunting might be a tech you'd need if your rushing someone who has with chariots.

Here's an Idea for the Oracle Slingshot...Use it on Theology, you can easily switch in and out of your early military Civic Theocracy and your One Tech Closer to Divine right which Holds the Wonder Minaret.

Hey and if you get enough Great Prophets and if you Ignore Monarchy you can Light-bulb COL and Civil Service, Civil Service Slingshot anyone??? And People here say those Great Prophets are wasted...well maybe in the later game...

 

[Disco Bandit]

I think Sabretooth might have hit on an interesting point. Skirmishers might not be as strong as Axes, but they get, what, 1 first strike? 1-2? Plus, they're cheaper. It may be more hammer efficient to throw a bunch of skirmishers at an enemy rather than Axes. Of course, they lose out on the city raider bonus, plus the 50% melee bonus, so you'll probably go with Axes anyway. You can claim you're a Builder all you want, Sis, but you've shown in the ALC's that you might just be a Warmonger at heart!

In any case, early synergy is not very strong. In my experience, Mansa typically shines from the Middle Ages on, once he is able to get cottages up and running and his economy hits full stride. I almost think it would be more beneficial for you to pump out 4-5 cities, hunker down till you get a tech lead, and then just destroy everyone on your continent in a massive blitzkrieg. You know you're going to be able to outtech the AI, even on Monarch. The AI on Monarch is still pretty worthless when it comes to tech.

Sure, you don't have a later UU like the Samurai or Red Coat, but maces will decimate your continent when your opponents still only have archers. I think a slingshot to COL, then research Civil Service is the way to go. In my experience I can just slingshot to CS instead, but that may be because I typically get good starts with Mansa.

One final note: Don't get caught up in the "synergy" between your UU and Spiritual. It's more important to concentrate on Spiritual and Financial. Playing to your spiritual/mysticism strength might prove more beneficial in the (very) short term, but I think long term it would be much better to plant some cottages early, gain a tech lead, and then secure your land.

This is all moot if you get an isolated start, in which case just go for spaceship I would say.

 

[Sabertooth]

Hunting => AH => Archery, + Wheel, + Horses = skirmishers + chariots early. Not all too shoddy to start the game with, it seems to me.

 

[carl corey]

You must be kidding me! BW gives you instant slavery, chopping and axemen and you want to go for AH and Archery first? Unless we have lots of AH resources and very few forests there's no way this can be better than an early BW.

 

[Sabertooth]

In my own defense, I make no claim for being the best strategic thinker around here.



But yeah, I do think so. Slavery is important, but you can't whip till you have the population for it. Chopping is also important, but is it so important that you need to start the game with it? I personally like to save chopping until a bit later, when I'm building labor-intensive infrastructure/wonders (even more useful with a non-industrious financial civ). And finally, of course, Axes are better than chariots or skirmishers, but I argue that skirmishers are good enough to start with, and give Mansa the breathing room to pursue a couple of other techs prior to BW.

That's not to say that BW ought not be an early priority, just that in Mansa's case I would move it down in the priority list a notch or two. Perhaps the relevant question is, what is the optimal point for Mansa to shift into slavery? And then try to time BW so that it is available at that point.

 

[patagonia]

Sankore/Minaret will be very situational, depending on availability of stone and a GE or two. The problem with generating extra GEs is that it'll make your GS more expensive, and in my experience, Mansa's a leader who can really benefit from a multiple academy approach.

You don't need to make a big thing of maximising the benefit of cheap temples to exploit the spiritual trait. Its real strength comes from the lack of anarchy, which allows you to abuse civics changes to your heart's content. You always favour stockpiling unit builds and then swapping to vassalage/theocracy for a quick XP boost, but can also use tricks like alternating slavery and caste system to maximise whipping benefits and GS generation.

If you have a high-food city on hand, GLib plus caste system plus a few turns in pacifism and/or the national epic can have the scientists (or merchants if you need quick cash for upgrades) flooding out (even GLib is something of a bonus rather than a necessity). By letting the city grow to its food limit and running maximum specialists for a few turns whilst starving it down again, you can churn out lots of GPP - tie the civics changes in with sinking hammers into troops elsewhere and you won't miss the loss of OR or theocracy either. For this reason I'd favour a CoL slingshot if you build the Oracle rather than a metal casting one, to open up useful civics to swap between earlier in the game. Use one GS to pop philosophy, another for most of Education and build academies in your cottaged cities with the rest. Then watch the beakers flood in as you race for the stars.