ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[KMadCandy]

^^uncle JJ
I don't share your economical cares totally. With the temple of artemis, Sisiutil will have some money coming in soon enough, either by a shrine or by a settled merchant. I know it's not enough to fund an empire, but he's not going broke anytime soon.

and since we've seen the jewish holy city, we know monotheism is out there, and so is OR. even if we can't trade for it, we'll get the discount when we research it. OR will let us build missionaries for any religion in that city (regardless of state religion) to spread the faith and bring in gold once we get our shrine...when we have a city not building troops *gigglefest*.

so, yes UncleJJ you have good points but i'm trying to point out bright spots.

question about ToA: if i ever built it was long ago, and i've read a lot of threads since i read aelf's great thread about his game where he used it masterfully. the free priest and merchant points are great. but how do we best take advantage of the 100% trade route yield? i assume we want to keep someone a) at peace with us and b) trade route accessible even with closed border issues cause by wars? that would make map exploration quite important, particularly around the coast, maybe?

ps i just recently skimmed thru the hatty ALC again, looking for early early war tips. it's so well-written, one of my favorites. one of the lessons learned (and as with most lessons, always in the process of being learned!) was the cost of REX and how to recover from it.

 

[Jet]

If Caesar is on the hit list, it's not going to get any easier than it is now.

Unless by hit list you mean before Praetorians, it is going to get easier because Caesar is stuck on a small peninsula and Sisiutil isn't.

 

[popejubal]

It might just be a soft spot that I have for builder civs, but I think leaving Mansa Munsa alone for now would be fine. Rome needs to burn, sure. Brennus needs to die. That much is obvious.

After that, though, I expect you'll need to pause to digest your new empire and wait until you have courthouses and either another trade route from Currency or a well established religion with a good shrine income to try to expand again without causing your empire to collapse on itself.

If you give Mansa Munsa some breathing room, you know you'll have someone easy to deal with as your primary adversary and you can always vassalize him once you feel the need later.

 

[cabert]

Not trying to beat it to death, but I'm stuck on Rome. If Caesar is on the hit list, it's not going to get any easier than it is now. Killing him off will let you forget about the eastern border, and his only brother in faith is Brennus, who's not going to be your friend anyway. If you touch Brennus, you'll upset the east - Caesar must go down before Brennus does. Mansa will capitulate relatively quickly whenever you go for him.

100% right
You don't want a 2 front war when your troops can be counted on your fingers, and JC WILL attack you at some point.
So clearly, anyone saying you can move your troops away for some faraway conquest is wrong.
+ your economy would not resist keeping any of mansa musa's cities
+ if you let him tech his way forward, he'll give you those techs when he capitulates. Let him be .
+ if you attack MM, you'll have no more friends on this map. This will happen later, but it's not the best idea right now.

Coastal wonders, I'm not saying they're useless, just not really worth the investment in this game, especially with limited resources (how many cities do we have?). Recovering builder, aren't you? They'll be captured anyway.

Building a wonder when you're playing the mongols? Is this a joke? What would your grand father say?
And beware of star trek's kahn too! He will phase you out!

 

[r_rolo1]

Hi Sisiutil and and all the "crew" of the ALC's. I'm a long time lurker of this threads and learned a LOT from them. By the way, congratulations for the Tokugawa's ALC, nice demostration of warfare ( I know I'm late...)

About the actual one, I'm for attacking Musa. Why?
* He is nearer

* He is your strongest foe

* Most probably he is researching IW ( for the jungle clearing ) and it's gonna take a while to see him getting Feudalism ( Window of oportunity )

* His land is prime estate

* He doesn´t have any metals = no spears

* His holy city = $$$$$

* Even if he can get to IW, the only iron visible in his territory is easily pillagable ( and he's building a cottage in top of it )

* Gems city = $$$$$ + hap

* Last but not least, REVENGE!!!!

Beware of JC of course. But most probably with all the jungle clearance that he has to do, when he gots two preats you will be figthing with grens.... And , by the way, it wasn't yesterday the anniversary of his death?

My line of thinking is to settle that settler you have north of your capital and prepare a kek/eleph/cat army ( maybe only the first one, LOL ) while scouting mansa's territory ( your ignorance about it is almost negligence) and getting Col as in a "not too far away time" basis...

P.S Let Brennus live by now. Most probably he is building a worker and a settler and trying to get a city that grabs that rice and iron west of him, not any kind of wonder or military unit. With luck and maybe some diplomacy JC will try to get his holy city = no praet rush on you and no more brennus.

Hopefully this thoughts of a humble prince player can be something useful to you. And let the games ( = keshik vs skirmisher round 2) begin!!!

 

[JackRules]

If you put a couple axe pairs in the jungles outside Julius' border he could come at you for years without breaking through. He'll always be an era behind you. Save him for the end and then abuse him to hit domination.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

One thing to be wary of:

You've had a strong start militarily, but you can't drag the whole world down at once. Getting yourself bogged down in a two-front war could allow Churchill and our two mystery guests to get a bit of a jump on you.

Where the human really shines against the AI is being able to focus excessive force on a single area to break the backbone of resistance. If war with Rome's to happen, you don't want operations in Mali to spread you too thin.

Is running a pillaging operation against Mansa now going to do him sufficient damage to make it worth your while, or would it be better to wait until you've got the cats to actually take some of his cities? It's been mentioned several times in this thread that he's one of the quickest AIs to capitulate and makes a very worthwhile vassal, but even a tech-whore like Mansa is a better vassal if you don't have too many negatives from war declarations first.

====

I guess you could aim to take some of Mansa's cities now, but axes v skirmishers is going to be brutal, so that really doesn't seem worthwhile.

All this is true. And Starcraft/Brood War was probably the last game I played where an AI really understood how to apply concentrations of force successfully at least some of the time. But that goes both ways too - since the AI isn't very good at applying force selectively, a person can work a 2 front war pretty easily against the AI.

In this case, I like Validator's idea of the 2-front war, except for the potential loss of trade partners.

But not only would pillaging Mansa reduce his effectiveness, it would also fund the razing of the Romans far sooner than would otherwise be possible, without forcing Sisiutil to drop his research (or at least not as much) to pay for the war (or to use all his production on war materiel). Mansa will be willing to sue for peace and techs after Rome is gone, and despite the diplo negatives will still be a tech trading partner. He seems to have a very short memory, from what I've seen. (too much in the hooka?)

It's a marginally greater gamble, but removes one threat and keeps a second in check but useful.

 

[Civman123]

I'd say go for JC. Jungle is weak early but if you're not careful you will get a little message saying "My horde is stronger! Now you will pay for your insults!" which is not pretty because JC among others is most likely to prepare highly and your military is pretty spread out. Besides why attack MM now when HIS UU is strong. Why not wait for Macemen?

 

[willpax]

I'm an absolutely lousy warmonger, but I find myself wanting to see if the superior mobility of the keshik allows for an effective two front war. It's a risk, but it would be a fun risk to take.

 

[Nares]

I'm an absolutely lousy warmonger, but I find myself wanting to see if the superior mobility of the keshik allows for an effective two front war. It's a risk, but it would be a fun risk to take.

2 move units can, but the Keshiks, and their base unit, the Horse Archer, come at a poor point in the tech tree to be as effectively as, say, the Egyptian War Chariot.

I also doubt they're as affordable as War Chariots, which is a major consideration in these stages.

After taking a quick peek at the map, I notice that Mansa has some excellent commerce cities. Double Gems, Double Gold, definatly will have Iron and can grab Copper. The only time MM is worrisome is when he can get his economy going. He won't even need to chop much of that Jungle in order to put down some Cottages.

JC's territory sucks, but his only source of Iron is near Vienne. You could just grab that and leave him be. He won't be a threat if he can't get Iron, and MM is only going to get more powerful as he clears Jungle, builds and develops Cottages, and expands moderatly.

I would consider taking JC's Iron, and determining which direction(s) MM is expanding in once you have done so.

 

[Kev]

Like so many I've been lurking through these threads for a while now. I not only enjoy the learning experience (I've become a comfortable Monarch player), but the storytelling that has gone with it.

I'd like to try to get involved now with the conversation and put my thoughts out there.

First, the iron near Vienne is not JC's only source. There is an additional one north in a desert area - and he'll probably get that one at some point. While he's not in such good shape, and it would be pretty easy to hamstring him to where you can be sure his UU's meet macemen and longbows (or gren's), I will throw my hat into the "Remove JC now" crowd.

With Mansa, I'd work to box him in where I could. Don't know if it's too late or too costly to try to stop his movement south with a city placement, but it could be worth a try. It would mean nixing the open borders, but that's not a huge deal and he'll still trade. Further, once you have Vienne and the borders popped, you can seal off JC's territory. Since there is not a great deal of development there, it would not be too painful to just run through there and raze the whole deal (don't think he has a wonder built or anything). Perhaps keep Rome, but without keeping the others it would not add to your costs, and with the canceled open borders with Mansa it seals off that peninsula until you wish to settle it (barring a settler that comes by galley).

Yes, JC's territory does not have THAT much to offer, but it does have two happy resources that the Mongols do not currently have (I think), and that could be helpful. I think that the razing of the whole peninsula can be done very quickly at this point, and in the mean time you can still trade with the others.

When preparing to hit Mansa, I guess his tech parity (or possible lead) will force the Mongols to beeline for a specific military tech (I'm thinking Military Tradition or chem, but that may be too late) that we can get first and exploit. I'll leave that to better players, but wanted to voice my thoughts on the current situation at hand.

 

[Sisiutil]

2 move units can, but the Keshiks, and their base unit, the Horse Archer, come at a poor point in the tech tree to be as effectively as, say, the Egyptian War Chariot.

I also doubt they're as affordable as War Chariots, which is a major consideration in these stages.

After taking a quick peek at the map, I notice that Mansa has some excellent commerce cities. Double Gems, Double Gold, definatly will have Iron and can grab Copper. The only time MM is worrisome is when he can get his economy going. He won't even need to chop much of that Jungle in order to put down some Cottages.

JC's territory sucks, but his only source of Iron is near Vienne. You could just grab that and leave him be. He won't be a threat if he can't get Iron, and MM is only going to get more powerful as he clears Jungle, builds and develops Cottages, and expands moderatly.

I would consider taking JC's Iron, and determining which direction(s) MM is expanding in once you have done so.

A good point. I had a look at the save last night (didn't have time to play ) and noticed that almost all of JC's cities are on hills. Without Catapults, I could wind up going through a lot of units trying to take him down. If I can deprive him of metal, I can keep him weak, so Cumae looks like a good target for razing. I'll probably have to finish off Brennus by taking Vienne first, however, which would certainly keep Julius contained.

 

[Preston85]

While everyone is concentrating on who to war what about techs?

If you go for catapults your reducing the UU to a support role but I agree you will need cat's to capture those cities without mass horse death.

Tech path? I would say go straight to construction if your economy is holding ok, if not well pillage something....

How about use Keshiks to pillage JC while your teching to construction then capture his cities, units he throw out of his cities should be easy pickings giving them a nice boost for the next war. War weariness is the only concern I would have with this plan, depends how far away cat's are.

He's to easy a target to avoid, and we know we can't ignore him cos he won't stay quiet for long. Stay buddy with MM until JC and the Celt are dealt with, if MM has cottage spammed by then, well thats more for you to pillage.

Those weak civ's should be used to boost your armies XP, going for MM before the other 2 will just waste your units after MM is done.

 

[kniteowl]

I say JC is not a Threat, once you have construction, you can use your 7XP elephants to counter his Prats, Give them combat 1 and Shock Promotions and those Prats are easy pickings.

Rome seems a long long way for you to capture it, can you absorb it before COLs?

I Personally Believe you should attack MM 1st because he's closer then Expand peacefully and improve your economy and wait till Maces and Trebs to take on JC. Most of JC's Land ain't worth fighting over, if you ask me.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 6: 685 BC to 205 BC

Yes, I'm progressing through this game more slowly than others in the past. 6 rounds and we're still not in the ADs! Maybe it's just to ensure I take full advantage of the goody hut munificence.

At any rate, I started by checking to see if Mansa was feeling as generous as the RNG:

Yep, sure looks that way! Thanks, buddy. Just for that, you get to live a little longer.

I sent the Settler, Archer, and a "spare" Axeman west to claim my next city site:

Given the potential food issues on the map, I decided to punt the SE idea and start cottaging. That was another part of the appeal of this site: with the riverside silk plus 5 other riverside grassland tiles for cottages (not counting the farm, which Beshbalik needs), it's a prime commerce site. The production isn't the greatest, with no hills, though the iron mine will help a little--too bad its in desert instead of plains, but you gotta take what the map generator gives ya.

Mansa, evidently feeling gregarious as usual, came back with an interesting trade offer:

I thought over this one for a long time, and eventually decided in favour of it. The clincher was the amount of gold in the treasury--almost nil. That meant the science slider was going to plunge in a turn or two, and I'd have probably 10 turns or more to go on Mathematics, not 8. And with Alphabet, Mansa may get more techs and be an even better trading partner. Notice I kept the strategic techs from him.

And I found one more civ on my rather large continent:

Interesting. Bismarck is on the other side of a very thin strip of land to the far west. And there's still one more civ out there somewhere, and it's not on this continent. In true fractal map weirdness, there's another, smaller continent out there somewhere with a lonely civ on it.

The peace treaty with Brennus expired, and I decided it was time to eliminate him. He's in my way and threatening to steal those bananas.

Taking Vienne was not easy. I lost two Axemen in the process, including a CR II Axe. But fall it did:

I decided to keep it. If I don't take down Julius Caesar completely, it will block him off from the rest of the continent.

Speaking of JC, it turns out he had finished researching Iron Working and had just completed a mine on that iron tile outside of Cumae. So it was time to take him down a peg, I decided:

The Keshiks started doing what they do best, zipping into enemy territory to pillage:

I did not go in for a two front war by also pillaging Mansa. I just didn't have enough units, even though I was producing several Kashiks. I had to get infrastructure built as well, so Keshiks were alternating in each city with things like granaries, libraries, and monasteries.

Nevertheless, I moved what remained of my stack towards Cumae and attacked it:

Again, I lost 2 Axemen in the process of taking the city. Archers are not weaklings, gang, and Axes are expensive Catapult substitutes, and not nearly as effective since they do no collateral damage. I won't be taking any more Roman cities unless and until I get some Swordsmen happening.

I'd obtained a gift of 110 gold from Churchill when he finished researching Currency before me. Combined with the gold from the capture of Cumae, I was able to keep research afloat at 60%. Cumae I razed--I can only afford so many more cities right now, and I'd like to put one SW of Bibracte to claim the marble soon. My main purpose here was to deny iron to Caesar.

A couple of turns later, I got my first great person:

I was unsure about what to do with him. Lightbulbing Currency at this point was a non-starter. It made me wish I'd researched Construction instead, but then again, I had a 50% chance of a Great Prophet or a Great Merchant, so it's probably just as well. I decided to wait and see what tech he'd lighbulb next before deciding what to do with him. We'll discuss the GM later.

I found out I'm the largest civilization in the world:

Interesting how that mystery civ is #3. Well, since it has nothing to contend with but barbs, I guess that makes growing a little easier.

On the turn that ends the round, I finished researching my next tech:

So this means that the Great Merchant would lightbulb Metal Casting:

Would that be the best use for him? I could send him on a trade mission, I guess to Berlin, though I wonder how much cash he'd really bring in. I could also settle him, probably here in Bibracte, which will likely have a shrine if and when I get a Great Prophet.

Here's some potential deals to consider:

Remember Mansa has Alphabet; I may as well get what I can for it from Churchill rather than Mansa, don't you think? The extra gold would be handy too--I could push the research slider up for a few turns.

And if I make peace with JC, I'll also get a little gold for my trouble:

So, what do you think? How should I use the GM? Should I take the tech deal with Winnie? And should JC and I make nice?

Beyond that, I'll follow this post with this game's first "state of the world" post and we can then discuss more long-term strategy once you have that information.

 

[Sisiutil]

The State of the World, 205 BC

It feels a little early for this sort of post, but things are unfolding quickly, aren't they? One civ eliminated already, before the clock turns over to the Anno Dominis!

Let's start with a look at the domestic advisor:

The builds look peaceful, but I've been alternating military/civilian the whole turn. I just completed my first two Swordsmen, who are making their way to Vienne.

The foreign advisor:

Pretty much as expected. The Buddhism block is happy with me--for now.

Technologies:

As I mentioned, I was thinking of evening things up a bit via Churchill. Looks like he's one of those leaders who will not trade monopoly techs, which means he's unlikely to let Polytheism and Code of Laws go if I offer him Metal Casting courtesy of the GM.

Power:

Not bad, but I'm not exactly miles ahead. Some of my cities aren't that well-defended, so I should probably do something about that. The problem is I keep using the extra units on offense rather than defense.

Demographics:

GNP is not the highest, but that's to be expected. I only started cottaging this round.

And a look at the maps. The south, the heart of Mongolia, to begin with:

Sure enough, the barbs claimed the horse/pig site. Looks like the built 1W of the horses. I guess that'll save me a Settler later on.

The Roman east (albeit slightly less Roman than last round, heh heh):

The German west, formerly shrouded in mystery:

I think in the big scheme of things, Bismarck is weak and can wait. He'll have to, since Churchill and Mansa are in my way.

And the bulk of the continent, the Malinese and English north:

A few other points for discussion:

• Technology: does Construction sound like the best choice at this point? Or should I snag Polytheism on my own, and then Literature to have a chance at the Great Library, especially if I get to that marble city site before Mansa? What about Code of Laws for courthouses?
• War: should I make peace with JC now that I've weakened him considerably? He'll likely try to re-settle the Cumae site; I could just leave a couple of sentry units there, then declare war and kill any Settlers he sends over there. I was thinking that once I get close to Construction and Catapults, I would declare on Mansa, pillage him with Keshiks, then follow up with a true city-busting stack. Churchill would be my medieval target. Thoughts?
• Cities: I'm building one Settler. Does the marble city site (1 SE of the corn) make sense as the next site, or is there a better option elsewhere?

 

[flamingzaroc121]

i would send your Gm to Berlin and either use it to

A) deficit spending

B)Save for some upgrades

C) bribe MM to help you take on Julius

 

[kniteowl]

About the GM, Your Next Great Person will appear in Bibracte in 56 turns.

Whether you want short or long term benefits from your GM is up to you, I'd personally save him Until he can lightbulb CS. Requires you to Research/trade MC, COLs and Monarchy IF you research either Priesthood or Monotheism, so ignoring those techs so you can beeline to CS will give you an advantage in the game, it's half a tech to Maces and allows you to run Bureaucracy.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

I'd definitely use the merchant for metal casting. If you sue Julius for peace, you probably won't have a cash problem for a while. At this difficulty, I believe it's important to grab pivotal techs (like MC) as soon as you can. Construction should be your next research tech because you'll need cats to finish Julius. Not sure about city sites. If you go for Construction now, you'll probably miss the GL even if you have marble.

 

[Jet]

Here's how to preview trade mission yield. It shows that no matter where you send the merchant, including nearby Kumbi Saleh, you'll get 1350. Metal Casting is 1008. The mission money would ensure that you get through Literature, Construction, and the other Classical techs at maximum speed, which would be very strong.

You can't keep Julius from getting Iron, so it doesn't really matter how long you wait to make peace with him.

Start pillaging Mali as soon as you get your Keshiks in place. There's no reason to wait. It won't matter that he'll have time to build units, because he won't have any improved tiles. Pillage everything in Mali and make haste to pillage everything in England as well.

1SE of the corn is good.

The order of Literature and Construction is not important because it will take some time to build more Keshiks and to hook up the Marble and prepare a city for building the Great Library. That said, if the Library ends up looking close then you should just build it in Bibracte, which can both build it quickly and run 2 regular scientists as well as all 3 of its mines.