ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[Steppin' Razor]

Just another quick "Thank you" from someone who usually lurks in the ALC threads. These games have really helped me improve.

Take your time, don't get burnt out.

 

[slowrider]

First ALC read and am thourghly enjoying it ... very entertaining and a great way to learn.

Since we're at a bit of a lull I have a question going back a few years. Would anyone care to expand on the trebuchets vs longbowman discussion. I've always relyed heaily on cats and don't have much experience with the much more expense trebs. Are they really that effective and worth the extra cost?

 

[Sisiutil]

First ALC read and am thourghly enjoying it ... very entertaining and a great way to learn.

Since we're at a bit of a lull I have a question going back a few years. Would anyone care to expand on the trebuchets vs longbowman discussion. I've always relyed heaily on cats and don't have much experience with the much more expense trebs. Are they really that effective and worth the extra cost?

Trebs get a 100% bonus when attacking a city, that's the main difference, and it's a big one. I also find that they tend to survive a city attack far more often that Catapults do, which means yes, the extra hammers are worth it, because you're likely to need fewer Trebs than Cats in the long run.

By the time that I get Steel, I usually have a few Trebuchets that have survived all the way to City Raider III that I upgrade to Cannon. And as you'll see when I post the next round (currently under way), CR III Cannon versus Longbowmen = rout.

 

[slowrider]

Thanks Sisiutil, I think I'll build some in the next WOTM. Fewer, stronger units = lower maintenance and less kills = lower WW.

 

[Yakk]

CR III Treb: +175% city attack.
Vs CD III Longbow Fortified: +125% defense.

Net: -50% defense.

6/1.5 = 4, same strength as a treb. The same math works with CR2 vs CD2 longbowmen.

If you defender is weaker than a CD3 longbow, you have the edge. And there ain't much stronger than a CD3 longbow.

Trebs are, if anything, too powerful -- even at their cost.

 

[jerVL/kg]

And there ain't much stronger than a CD3 longbow.

What about a CD3 Machine Gun?

 

[Yakk]

You obviously haven't seen the robin hood mod!

It all goes downhill from longbows...

 

[oyzar]

Yakk the point is that the trebs need to get to the city to attack the lbs and they only do that in sp... if you do that in mp you have allready won... They are not overpowered. Assuming you got time to build enough units you will allways manage to beat the AI in war.

 

[Yakk]

And halving the number of units required isn't too powerful?

Yes, MP civ is different. And maybe the SP AI should be more aggressve stomping on player-stacks outside of cities.

 

[bardolph]

While trebs are great against longbows, it won't be long till those trebs start facing Musketmen, Grenadiers, and Riflemen. The AI definitely needs to be more aggressive against incoming treb stacks, especially considering how weak trebs are in the field.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 9: 1316 AD to 1574 AD - The War with England

The prevailing advice from the ALC usual suspects was towards vassalizing Mansa right away and then going after England, so that's what I did:

I think that was a pretty good deal, all things considered. He had another 340 gold which he was nice enough to give to his master, with whom he went from "Annoyed" to "Pleased" in record time. A very forgiving fellow, that Mansa. Over the next couple of turns, I made a couple more tech trades with him, having obtained Paper and some gold from Monty in exchange for Guilds:

But wait, that wasn't the best one! I remembered from the Qin game, way way back, how much the AI values Steel. That hasn't changed:

Once these trades were done, the Great Scientist in Karakorum, I saw, would have lightbulbed Scientific Method, which didn't really turn my crank. So I used the GS for an Academy, and that, I was pleased to see, shaved a turn off of Astronomy.

Meanwhile, of course, I was moving units into position for my offensive against England. When I was ready to pounce, I went to see Churchill:

As recommended, I split my stack in two and focused on Cannons as my main offensive unit, upgrading several CRIII Trebuchets in my possession to Cannon at around 110 gold a pop--well worth it. I sent one stack up against England's easternmost cities, starting with Canterbury:

As I mentioned a few posts above this one, CRIII Cannon get awesome odds against Longbowmen. During the whole war, in fact, I only lost one Cannon, and that was in one of those battles where the RNG decides to annoyingly remind you that the 5.4% in a 94.6% odds-in-favour battle is still significant. I shrugged it off, since my Cannons came out of several battles at 70% - 85% odds relatively unscathed.

The other stack drove towards the heart of the English Empire, beginning its assault upon Hastings:

That stack later drove north to Oxford, and then northwest to London. At the same time I was building several Frigates in Vienne, my Heroic Epic city, which was close to England via water.

I produced another Great Merchant in Bibracte (no Great Prophet, despite my continuing efforts to produce one) and sent him, under armed escort, to Germany.

I checked using the trick recommended earlier in this thread (select the GM, shift-right-click on a city, hover over the trade mission button while holding the shift key) and discovered that despite the distance, Aztec cities offered meagre returns--1650 gold versus the 2850 I got from Berlin.

I said it as a joke earlier, but I'm now beginning to think someone should write up a strategy article on "the GM Economy", because that, more than anything, has been what's powered me through this game. Well, the GMs and a big, awesome army.

In 1460, London bridge came falling down, falling down, falling down:

I had finished conquering the eastern English cities, so I put my units in London to heal and then reunited the eastern strike force with them--temporarily. As you can see, I now had some Frigates, so I sent them to remove the coastal cities' defenses. Then I split the stack again, one slightly smaller stack heading along the coast, following the Frigates:

The other, larger stack--including the 4 Accuracy Catapults as well as the Medic III Keshik--headed inland:

Oh, hey--time to check in with my vassal again!

Now that I had a better economic civic, I decided to change up. Hey, come on, I've been very good this game! This is my first civic change, IIRC, since round 7, about 1000 years ago!

The returns were a little disappointing, though. Taking cities was turning out to be much more lucrative. So was tech trading with Mansa, who always seemed to have a nice-sized pile of gold available whenever I had a tech to offer him:

No, gang, I couldn't just turn research OFF. A vassal is under no obligation to give you techs for free, only resources. So I kept researching the military techs, while I had Mansa focus on civillian ones.

In 1574, the last English city on the continent fell:

After I killed that lonely English Pikeman and captured the Settler he was protecting, England no longer had a presence on the continent. All Churchill was left with was two cities on that little island just east of my capital--quite appropos, I thought. Time to talk turkey with the bulldog:

"...we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never... ah, screw it. We're getting our butts kicked, here!"

So, where does that leave me? How close to an early domination victory am I? Stay tuned for the "state-of-the-world" post, coming next!

 

[Sisiutil]

The State of the World, 1574 AD

Let's start, as usual, by looking at the map:

Yes, I did found another city, New Serai, in former Roman lands. There's also that island north of Monty that appears, as yet, to be unclaimed. Interesting.

Now let's start with the victory screen, because all other considerations depend upon that at this point:

VERY close indeed! I have the population, I just need some more land. I'll get some once Liverpool comes out of revolt and its borders expand, but it won't be enough. Building culture in some of the other English cities might help, but still won't give me the land I need for the win. The obvious target, then, is Bismarck--specifically, Essen and Hamburg.

So how do Bizzy-boy and I compare, tech-wise?

Bismarck has Military Tradition and has built some Cavarly. However, I now have Rifles--several of them, in fact--so the halcyon days of Cavalry are over, my Teutonic friend. And poor Bizzy lacks Grenadiers, Rifles (though I suspect he's working towards those, since he has Reliable Parts), and, most importantly, Steel for Cannons.

Frankly, I think I'll be able to romp through Essen and Hamburg and keep Bizzy bottled up on the other side of that slender strip of land adjoining his territory to mine, and I think that will be enough for the win.

Just for your edification, here are a few more informative screenshots. The Domestic Advisor:

Yes, I'm building West Point in Vienne, but I'm beginning to suspect I won't finish it before the end of the game.

Civics:

I see no urgent need to change these, unless anyone thinks I should do a Vassalage/Nationalism and a OR/Theocracy switch and draft a bunch of Riflemen. But I have a pretty good-sized army perched on Bismarck's doorstep, so I don't really see the need.

Foreign relations:

Churchill is not nearly as forgiving as Mansa. I've already gifted him some techs and I'm at the +4 max on that with him, but I should probably give him everything I've got at this point, if only to ensure he doesn't lose anything to Bismarck. Unlikely, I know, but what the heck. I mean, look at how long it's gonna take the poor guy to research Rifling--62 turns!

The Military Advisor:

31 Workers! I can't remember the last time I had that many. Strangely, they're all quite busy. I did capture a lot of territory, and Mansa's sole contribution to the campaign was pillaging all the tile improvements. Thanks, buddy. Thanks a lot. Just stay home next time.

And yes, I got another GM out of Bibracte! He's on his way to Germany (he'd lightbulb Corporation, which Mansa is researching for me). I'm thinking of using him in Essen rather than sending him all the way to Berlin just so I can get the DoW done ASAP.

Demographics:

The score chart for the whole game, which is looking ridiculous:

And the power chart for the last 50 turns, which ain't too far behind:

So I think the game will end in the next round. Use the GM in Essen, declare war on Germany, grab the needed territory for the win. Anything I'm missing? I think the only real decision I'm facing is whether it's worth it to build a Galleon and Settler and send them to that island north of the Aztec Empire. Does that seem worthwhile, or a fool's errand? Wouldn't it just be easier to claim more German territory if needed?

 

[carl corey]

Just get Germany right away. You have such an impressive military power that I'm sure you can go through German cities like butter.

P.S. You put the Foreign Advisor twice, once instead of the Military Advisor.

 

[Galileo44]

This is looking to be the earliest and highest scoring ALC yet. Just go and kill Bismark now, you have the win locked up.

 

[Yakk]

You need 8.02% of the world to win.

Bismark has 16% of the world.

So you need to take 1 city or gain like 1 square of territory, and enforce a capitulation or vassalization on Bismark.

Odds are you can do this with your current army, without a pause to rebuild. If you have any unoccupied territory on the side of the continent far from bismark, start building a quick settler or two and claim it -- that could shave a turn or two off, if you end up taking cities from Bismark. It takes multiple turns for the city to leave revolt, after all!

 

[namliaM]

Seeing as you are in need of culture in some places to pick up some (more) tiles.... why didnt you include Caste system into your revolt? This would allow you to (localy) run Artists where needed to pick up the extra tiles. Commerce is not allways the best way to gain culture in particular in newly aquired cities.

Where as artists are a quarantee under Caste.

 

[Civman123]

I say to just put the Germans out of the misery. Rush through all of his cities and get the highest score of the ALC's

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

You only need 6.02% for the win. Declare war ASAP and capitulate Bismark ASAP for the win.

You need 8.02% of the world to win.

Bismark has 16% of the world.

So you need to take 1 city or gain like 1 square of territory, and enforce a capitulation or vassalization on Bismark.

Odds are you can do this with your current army, without a pause to rebuild. If you have any unoccupied territory on the side of the continent far from bismark, start building a quick settler or two and claim it -- that could shave a turn or two off, if you end up taking cities from Bismark. It takes multiple turns for the city to leave revolt, after all!

 

[popejubal]

You only need 6.02% for the win. Declare war ASAP and capitulate Bismark ASAP for the win.

Bismark won't talk until 10 turns after the declaration of war. I have a feeling that there won't even be any more German cities 10 turns after the declaration.

After you declare, the only thing you'll really have to wait for is the end of the German cities' revolt. Switch civics to Caste System (and Free Speech if Mansa somehow happens to stumble on to Democracy while you are at war) while the german cities are in revolt (toward the end of the revolt) and when however many cities are out of or are 1 turn out of revolt, just change every single population point in those cities into Artists. BLAMMO! Instant 2-ring pops for any city that wants it. Add the 100% culture slider for that one turn to your economy and you'll even see a few more tiles under your banner from more established cities. I'm sure that you can stop research for the last turn of your game, anyway.

In fact, why research any more at all? Finish Steam Power and change over to all cash and just a little culture. Are you really going to useany tech that you grab in the few turns after you discover the joy of Steam?

 

[kniteowl]

It obvious that you've already won... I doubt you need any more advice or ideas except to finish ASAP.

Anywayz Looking towards your next game... I realize just how weak the AI is at war, they're near totally useless, you could probably handle Emperor quite easily if you War enough.

Personally I'd like to see you play with the Better AI Mod in your next game, better get used to it now because in the Expansion Better AI is a permenant feature, besides the AI is much more competent at warring and Research, almost like a human player, except they totally suck at Naval Warfare and do a Noob move every once in a while, but still alot better then what we currently play wihtout the Mod.