ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[Cabledawg]

I agree with settling Knighowls greydot soon. Itll need 1 cheap defender and it pays for itself quickly.

As for orange dot, it has too many mountains in it for my taste at the expense of getting marble in the fat cross. Moving orange dot 1E loses all the mountains, loses the marble, gains more hills and another wine. This could be a really nice commerce city. If you dont think you can get marble in someones fat cross when you need it, then by all means...get it now.

Green dot can prolly be settled later as itll then have overlap with capitol and orange dot.

Blue dot near the wheat is a waste....I see no reason to put a settler there.
Black dot can pick up the fish, deer and wheat along with some mines and lumbermills and be a great city. I would live there if the taxes werent so high.

Dark blue dot at the gold....another fine city. Youll have to take that from mansa though as he will have it settled soon.

The Merchant plan is solid. Youre gonna like not having to turn research off to upgrade your troops and from the sound of this game...thats alot of troops. Go all out for merchants. If there is a goody hut on that island...send a scout over there and have him sit there waiting for you to get optics, pop the hut and hope for Astro. If someone sends a settler, youll see him land and can pop it.

 

[kniteowl]

As for orange dot, it has too many mountains in it for my taste at the expense of getting marble in the fat cross. Moving orange dot 1E loses all the mountains, loses the marble, gains more hills and another wine. This could be a really nice commerce city. If you dont think you can get marble in someones fat cross when you need it, then by all means...get it now.

Green dot can prolly be settled later as itll then have overlap with capitol and orange dot.

I dunno about that, apart from being 1 tile away from the coast and losing Marble, it also forces Green dot to move SE on top of the Iron to work the fish therefore loses Hammers for Production.

It's really dependent on your style of play i Guess if you want to settle aggressively for super Commerce. or 2 City Medicore Cities. that don't waste resources.

Blue dot near the wheat is a waste....I see no reason to put a settler there.
Black dot can pick up the fish, deer and wheat along with some mines and lumbermills and be a great city. I would live there if the taxes werent so high.

Blue dot/X is more of a Fill in the Gap City that can share the Wheat with Black Dot, Lumber-mills don't come into the game till quite late. Blue Dot/X could make a reasonable Production city Once Civil Service has been researched for irrigation by farming those grassland tiles, and it can pay for itself by working the coast for commerce during peaceful times.

Black Dot is the same as blue dot but has deers and Whales, it will make a nice fishing village that could eventually pay for itself after whipping a granary, lighthouse and harbor and forcing it to accelerate it's growth to work those those coastal tiles.

 

[patagonia]

Good progress there.

You now have 3 production cities, so it'd be prudent to start work on a commerce one while your Keshik horde is being trained. Whether you look to lock down territory to the west, or fill in the space between Karakorum and Bibracte is a matter of personal taste - both have their advantages and disadvantages. Don't bother with wonders, they're a distraction and you'll be able to capture them soon enough anyway.

Diplomatically, the obvious course of action is to take Vienne and then press east into Roman lands. It preserves the Buddhist brotherhood, nets you a few resources you're lacking and stomps on Caesar while he's weak. With Churchill being too far away and Mansa's Skirmishers being tougher to dislodge, he's definitely the best target...you could even hit him pre-consruction and hope the cats catch up in time for the assult on Rome itself.

 

[LostCrumb]

Julius is weak, he has no metal yet … doesn’t this make him a perfect target for Keshiks? I vote for pillaging him back to Stone Age, while staying friends with Mansa Musa and Churchill for a while.

As for builds, Karakorum and Beshbalik both nearly have their Gers finished, but it will be a few turns before the horses are hooked up by road. I think both cities should build a Worker in the interim, before the build-up of the horde begins.

I would build two Keshiks first and attack Julius immediately before he hooks up his iron source.

We should also start giving some thought to city specialization. A marble-corn (-wine?) city north of Karakorum might make for a good commerce and science city, especially if I build the Great Library there.

Bibracte could be a good Great People farm, with its clams, bananas, and pigs plus several grassland tiles (and the horses and some hills for decent production). It will be prejudiced towards Great Merchants because of the Temple of Artemis, so maybe I should exploit that. The Great Lighthouse has not yet been built; should I get a Lighthouse going in Bibracte next, then the wonder? And perhaps I should also get Metal Casting before too long and build a forge and the Colossus in Bibracte? What techs to Great Merchants lightbulb, anyway? Exploiting GMs might be cool, I haven't tried that before. And Caste System would let us pump them out like there's no tomorrow.

It is a nice idea to dedicate Bibracte to produce Great Merchants. I never do that in my games. I'd love to see how they could be used! I would dedicate the marble-corn city to commerce, make Karakorum a science/production hybrid and dedicate Beshbalik to unit/Keshik production.

LC

 

[cabert]

first capturing the temple of artemis(mostly luck, but brennus was the one with polytheism, so it makes sense he should built the according wonders) ! No problem getting the shrines built now!
second : why would you want to attack mansa musa?
this guy is never a problem. He trades easily and when you attack him he bows easily.
The purple guy next door is a lot more trouble.
Given the religious status, i'd go straight for rome now. He doesn't have IW yet, so the time is just right. You don't want to face praetorians!
I'd build a keshik to "monitor" the iron, and go for him with just what you have.
You don't need to finish off brenus right now. Let him build the parthenon .
There is no time for building now. You are at you power peak. It's only going down from there.

 

[namliaM]

What techs to Great Merchants lightbulb, anyway? Exploiting GMs might be cool, I haven't tried that before. And Caste System would let us pump them out like there's no tomorrow.

I made this techtree numbering from the post about bulbing techs with GPs.

(click it to open it)

I think it is much easier to spot what is going to be bulbed on the tree rather than looking down a list. We have been using it with team VQ in the SGOTM3 + 4, the picture is om Imageshack, thus no need to worry about SGOTM conflicts if you are on another team

 

[cabert]

I wouldn't use the potential GMs to lightbulb anything.
You'll run short on money soon. Settling one in coppercow for the food, or in shrine city for max money sounds better to my ears.
GM trade mission isn't worth the trip early.

 

[Immaculate]

Round 5: 2080 BC to 685 BC
As for builds, Karakorum and Beshbalik both nearly have their Gers finished, but it will be a few turns before the horses are hooked up by road. I think both cities should build a Worker in the interim, before the build-up of the horde begins.

I thought Brennus's capital was hooked up once you extorted sailing. It looks to have a trading icon on the overhead map. Doesn't that mean you have horses in your city now?

 

[oyzar]

Your gonna smash face, owrrying about collosus or great lighthous is kinda weak! Though you do have the ToA allready so you could make the former celt capital into a trading power house. Build a forbiden palace there?(Do that give the trade bonus?) And you'll have Traderoutes equal of Aelf in his traderoutes game. That said I certanly would worry about getting some setlers out. Razing that city means you'll have to spend loads of extra time on building settlers. Personaly i would just have kept it as it saves alot of time this early in the game no matter if it is placed a little off. Build 1 Setler and 1 worker in your two main cities then conquer the oposition.

 

[namliaM]

I thought Brennus's capital was hooked up once you extorted sailing. It looks to have a trading icon on the overhead map. Doesn't that mean you have horses in your city now?

You can see clearly in the city screen that the horses are not roaded => Not available...

 

[Kietharr]

Finish Brennus as soon as the 10 turns of peace are up, it should be enough time to add a few to your stack. If his defenses sucked that badly at his capitol and 2nd city they should suck just as badly at Vienne provided you don't give them time to settle more. After you kill Brennus I suggest you prepare to kill Caesar while A. None of your buddies like him and B. he can't make praets, axemen, or spearmen. He should have plenty of workers sitting around waiting for ironworking that can clear the jungle for you. Also, this would be an excellent chance to use your Keshiks, as Julius has no metals hooked up (to our knowledge, but we know where both of his iron sources are for quick pillaging) and Keshiks can move through the jungles very quickly due to the no terrain movement cost.

 

[cabert]

Finish Brennus as soon as the 10 turns of peace are up, it should be enough time to add a few to your stack. If his defenses sucked that badly at his capitol and 2nd city they should suck just as badly at Vienne provided you don't give them time to settle more. After you kill Brennus I suggest you prepare to kill Caesar while A. None of your buddies like him and B. he can't make praets, axemen, or spearmen. He should have plenty of workers sitting around waiting for ironworking that can clear the jungle for you. Also, this would be an excellent chance to use your Keshiks, as Julius has no metals hooked up (to our knowledge, but we know where both of his iron sources are for quick pillaging) and Keshiks can move through the jungles very quickly due to the no terrain movement cost.

why wait?
10 (or is it 15 on epic?) is long
Rome is ripe now.

 

[Jet]

Bibracte is best as a front-line production city, but it would be good for the Great Library because it has the hammers to do it quickly, and could run 2 regular Scientists as well as all 3 of its mines.

Don't build the Colossus or Great Lighthouse. Your path of expansion is inland.

Do settle 1SE of the Corn. It would be good for the Great Library and good enough for Oxford, although a Malinese city might turn out to be better.

In Karakorum I'd switch a citizen from the plains forest to the plains hill, mine it, and then start working cottages.

Promptly whip a Granary in every city. Your happy cap of 6+ makes that a must.

Attack Mali as soon as you have either a couple Keshiks to start pillaging or enough Axes to take his Gems city. Take the Gems city with Axemen; it will pay for itself. Otherwise build Keshiks and pillage everything, so that he's never able to research Feudalism, and take the rest of Mali with catapults.

As soon as you run out of Malinese stuff to pillage, immediately start pillaging someone else, probably Churchhill because he's next most powerful. Staying at 100% science with pillage money is very powerful. You only have time to pillage a couple of civs before they're strong or advanced enough to resist. And just pillage everything; don't worry about saving cottages. It's better to get the money, and your pillagers should be way ahead of your attack stacks. So for example while you're attacking Mali, you're pillaging England.

You can pillage Brennus's Iron or take Vienne if you want, but he and Julius are too weak and marginally-located to worry about. In fact if you take Vienne and place a line of four Axemen across the chokepoint (which is forested anyway) the Julius AI will probably not realize it can get through.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

I know it's early, but as feudalism approaches, can you make sure to get a screenshot of the victory screen? (or at least let us know the land % you currently have). With such a large landmass, domination may be far easier than conquest (no overseas invasion might be possible), so if you can get to the dom limit on this continent alone, you might not want any vassals, whereas if you're going conquest, you can accept capitulation as soon as they're willing.

 

[UncleJJ]

Well done. Nice axe rush. Congratulations on getting the Temple of Artemis.

You have no problems with military or diplomacy. The only thing limiting future ambitions is a very shaky economy. You need to plan for expansion unless you intend to win by Conquest instead of Domination.

Incidently, I looked at the savegame and settled Turfan just to look at the costs once that was done as I'm sure you'll do that soon. With Turfan we get:
At 100% research we get 33 beakers and 1 gold with costs of 14 so we're losing -13 gold /turn with 75 in the treasury.
At 0% research that changes to 0 beakers and 31 gold income with 14 costs for a net surplus of 17 gold / turn. That defines the economic parameters within which we can plan for further expansion unless you do something about it. With our 4th city Turfan we currently breakeven at 50% research.

State of the economy:
Still no granaries in any of your cities and no intention of building them it seems. Whipping without granaries is only 50% efficient
Pottery was dicovered in 3550 BC and it is now 685 and not one cottage built and only 2 sources of commerce of more than 1 per turn are being worked.

I strongly suggest we do not launch into a new war until we do some housekeeping. If Brennus only has Vienne left by all means take that but it will cost a lot in maintenance and I'd hate to raze a holy city.

We need to research Currency after Mathematics and before Construction or any other research priority. The one really good thing about our economy at present is the plentiful supply of hammers. Currency will do many things to salvage the economic blackhole we are approaching. It will give :
a) The extra trade route in each city will be lucrative especially in Bribacte.
b) Markets will be exceptionally good for the economy and happiness (we will eventutally have all of fur, whale, ivory and silk) and of course they allow us to run merchant specialists giving 3.75 gold for 2 food per turn.
c) Finally we will be able to build Wealth turning hammers into gold.

Sorry to be the harbinger of economic doom. This seems to be my role in all your games Sisiutil that I comment on at this stage. I wonder what that tells us about your playstyle?

 

[cabert]

^^uncle JJ
I don't share your economical cares totally. With the temple of artemis, Sisiutil will have some money coming in soon enough, either by a shrine or by a settled merchant. I know it's not enough to fund an empire, but he's not going broke anytime soon.
OTOH I wouldn't settle anymore cities right now to avoid more economic problems (except what's already under way).
I'd like to see the victory screen too, since a super early domniation is certainly doable with creative Kublai.
If it's the chosen path, then it's all about keeping every well placed city.
If not, it's conquest we're looking for and razing is the name of the game.

 

[UncleJJ]

I agree with you that he could run for another 50 turns at a low % research. But then he has to stop and sort out a dreadful case of overexpansion. That is harder to do with an expensive army and costly city and civic upkeep. He can raze cities rather than keep them but that is wasteful in the long term. With Currency he can conquer Ceasar and keep all the cities while maintaining a reasonable rate of research.

I want him to expand in a helter skelter series of domination conquests of the entire continent. But to do that he has to attend to the logistical costs and the sooner that is done the sooner a sustained conquest can proceed rather than a stop-go sort.

 

[curtadams]

I think the next city should be settled 1 SW of the corn to the West. That should deny Mansa all metals, which means he can't build spears to stop your Keshiks. There's one left to Brennus' north but I think you can keep him out. Then, after Brennus is gone, you can stomp the heck out of Mansa and avoid the need to fight Praetorians. It's a decent city now and will be excellent later once you have Calendar with the two silks. If you don't get it, I guarantee Mansa will soon and he'll be a much tougher nut to crack.

With respect to the city or cities due north of the capital I think you should found only one good city and let the resources go until your culture picks them up. You're soon to have a continent-sized area to yourself in the early medieval age, so you're going to have a LOT of resources unused anyway. Your limiting factor will be cities so you want every one to be outstanding. Snapping up every resource is an issue for the late medieval age, and your culture boost will get a lot for you without needing the little colonies tucked into nooks and crannies.

So, does everybody agree Brennus just gave us a demo of why basher beats builder in Civ4? I'm sure the temple of Artemis was the reason he didn't have the usual capital defenses.

BTW, the Scout doesn't need to babysit the horses anymore. You can use him to spy on Mansa and explore towards Churchill now.

 

[carl corey]

Mansa already has iron in the city with the gems. He doesn't have Iron Working yet but will probably get it soon, and will certainly have it if we attack the Romans first.

 

[Nares]

I had 4 Axemen, 1 Spearman, and an Archer on Celtia's borders, outside of some new city Brennus had placed there to my north, next to Winery Hill. I declared war and moved the stack into position:

I shuddered when you decided to attack from across the river.

Nice to see you're still playing, and that these threads are now longer by the halfway point than the earlier ones were in their entirety.