ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[curtadams]

Since London is now a size 15(!) city I think you'll get more cash for a trade mission there than the maximum bulb effect.

The big benefit of conquest is picking up cities, so I don't see any reason to war until you've beefed up your finances enough to support some. So take the peace. Since you've already declared on JC once, you're not going to get trade routes so you may as well keep him as your enemy and leave Mansa alone. You can leave JC alone too as long as he doesn't get Iron. So if he founds a city, let it live until it gets Iron in its cultural boundaries. If you want to be really vicious, wait until he hooks it up and then attack a turn or two later so he wastes production he's started on Praetorians, Swords, and Shields <wicked laugh>. When you can afford to keep his good cities, take him out. That way *he* wastes the worker time to chop jungle. This also maximizes your tech and commerce trading with the Buddha boys; trade will get harder once you start warring with them.

Yes, New Toledo is your best city. Venison Sandwich won't produce the commerce you need most. Beavers by the Sea is decent now but New Toledo will be better in the long term, gives you more resources, and could be stolen by Mansa.

 

[Kev]

I am never sure how the mechanics work with war weariness despite the articles available to read. Not sure if it would be better to have peace first with Julius and then start pillaging Mali or would it be OK to wage war and pillage Mail now and lessen the weariness when we make peace with Julius later on.

Also, how easy would it be to achieve peace with Mansa if we do not take cities right away and our pillaging outlives the time involved?

Sorry, I'm still of the mind to finish off the Roman peninsula before warring elsewhere. I don't think Mansa has a great deal of extra room to expand, and we can try to block potential outlets with settlers and an ending of the open borders deal.

We seem to have iron available, and with swordsmen the razing (not taking) of Roman cities could be made easier. JC will serve no other purpose but to annoy our cities at that part of the world, let us just be done with him.

At this stage, it seems that we are keeping up in research just fine - and are even ahead of the game. I don't think that taking the time to remove the purple from the map will impede our teching so much that it should be abandoned. If we need to make peace for 10 turns then so be it - we can get some swords and tech nicely in the mean time before the final hammer falls (though I'd be concerned that he'd be able to set up iron in that time frame).

Just my thoughts. We may lose some units (i.e. hammers) at the hands of JC, but in the long run I'd consider it a decent investment.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

JC is now effectively boxed in - Since you plan on almost always warring, and thus almost always building lots of units, your power graph will keep him from attacking for a while, and when he does, he's just signing his own death warrant. I'd leave him be for now so that he serves as a fogbuster until you can afford to keep a few cities out there.

I'd take the tech trade - with all your land, you're going to eventually start running away in the tech race, and you'll be killing everyone soon enough that WFYABTA is not an issue.

For tech, while CoL would be nice for the economy, i'd pick up construction first. Then, you can be pumping out cats while you research CoL, so you have a city-taking army ready to go by the time you're able to economically take cities.

 

[Melon Head]

I think it might be worthwhile to play a peaceful round, actually. Build up some infrastructure (and a bunch of units to aim at Mansa if you have time), workers, and fill in your territory. That ought to give you the economic boost to finish off Mansa.

Alternatively, just play a peaceful round building workers and infrastructure, plus units, and then take extra cities from Mansa instead of filling in your territory in a little while. If barbs settle, they settle. They're easier to kill than AI cities.

 

[lukep]

keshiks are really powerfull. their high survival rate due to withdraw habilities mean that they promote very well as my lvl13 warlord in a parallel game shows it (you love CombatVI and 80% withdraw chance). barrack+ger+theocraty is exp9 out of the box

Combat I then flanking seems the key for me.
even longbows are not that much of a problem if you have some cats. you will loose some, promote the survivors and still take the city.

going full war mode against JC is imho the right move as keshiks are around their power peak. Pillaging MM is not an alternative, but if you can do both why not ? Everything that can slow him is good

 

[Preston85]

PE.... Pillage Economy You know you want to I haven't done it but I would think taking an axe + archer in with each group of Keshiks, find a hill/forest near some cities and base them from there sending the Keshiks out to pillage then run back. Keeping a nice income boost and MM away from resources. Don't forget to pillage sea resources, yes Kahn built boats to take Japan and failed misserably but shouldn't stop you, you arn't invading by sea!)

Keep Churchill and Bismark peacful with you but be aware of the shared religion with MM so they will probably side with there friend and give you -1 each. I wouldn't declare war on them till after JC is finished and MM is nearly done for unless they don't want to trade any techs with you.

 

[patagonia]

I'd send the GM on a trade mission to London. The gold you'll net will (tied to war) fund 100&#37; research for a long time, allowing you to expand in a foolhardy manner.

Research construction next while massing Keshiks and the occasional sword, then build 2-3 stacks of catapults. Then unleash the fury on Mali. If you continue to cottage and develop calendar resources back home, you won't need to worry too much about the economy, and if you build enough troops before declaring you'll be able to sweep through his territory without too much trouble. Run caste system and keep anything with the commerce resources or sufficient food surplus for merchants to make it profitable, reinforce and press on to London with elephants and maces as they become available. Once Churchill's been subdued, spam settlers and march your army over to put Caesar out of his misery. Churchill's protective longbows won't be a picnic, but by the time you've swept through Mali you'll have overwhelming territory and he won't be able to compete.

You should be able to get a pretty early domination win if you stay focused and don't get distracted by unneccessary shiny objects like the Great Library.

==========

The alternative approach would be to continue the war against Caesar now, razing everything. You can then seal off his peninsula until astronomy by closing borders if Mansa or Churchill try to send a settler through, allowing you to settle there at your leisure when you can afford more cities.

 

[Structure]

I decided to play out the second save (right before you began the Rome war). Details in spoiler. But I'll say here that I think you should press forward as quickly as you can. I don't think the outcome of this game is in doubt. The challenge is only how early you can earn a domination win.

Spoiler :

I wanted to play out the save two ways. One going after Rome and then again going after Mansa first. I've only played out the Rome first strategy. I used axes reinforced by Kashiks and swords to take down Vienna and then all the Roman cities. I only kept Rome.

I then almost immediatly declared on Mansa. He didn't have much to pillage and was rather easy to take down. The problem was my $ tanked. I was one turn away from having units go on strike. Luckly I was able to grab Timbukto and keep it going. I ended up making peace with Mansa for tech and gold after grabing most of his empire.

Brief peace followed while I tech'ed to macemen and trebs. Then I went after the bulldog of the north. Mansa had vassalized to him ($@#$#^#$). So they both had to go. War took longer than I would have liked but both were finished by 1400 AD.

Last, I went after Bismark. This was slower than I expected as somehow he got Riflemen and Cavalry in a couple turns... not sure how, either he started teching faster than he had been, or Monty lent him a hand. Anyhow, domination victory occured in 1790 AD. Score of roughly 45k. This is very good for me. Highest Monarch victory by far. I expect Sisiutil will do much better. Frankly with that great start I found the game easy...which Monarch is not for me. I'm a Prince player.

 

[KMadCandy]

Just my thoughts. We may lose some units (i.e. hammers) at the hands of JC, but in the long run I'd consider it a decent investment.

i like this point, or waiting for to build some cats to throw away with 'em. warmongering him out early is a good investment IMO, but opinions vary

loved the domestic advisor screenshot! often we have to nag you to build granaries .

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I'm interested as to what to do with the GM myself. Keep in mind he produces one food for any city he settles in, so I like using him to get cities over a "hump" so to speak. Could Bibracte benefit a lot from the extra food? And could any reasonable commerce site? If so, that's a consideration.

Metal Casting should be as well...you have a good deal of coastal cities, so the Colossus is an appealing option. Considering there's only one other civ out there...Astronomy loses some of its luster. Heck, how big is your continent? You might not even need to ever meet that civ to win, which would be pretty funny.

Of course, trade mission gold is also always nice....

 

[Sisiutil]

Looks as though the general consensus (not shared by everyone, I know, but going by the majority) is:

• Use the GM for a trade mission, probably to London, to fund research.
• Take the tech trade with Churchill and the peace with JC.
• Switch targets to Mail--pillage, pillage, pillage!
• Use my next settler for "New Tolosa", 1SE of the corn.
• Research Construction, forgo the GL (or just capture it later on, chances are it will be built on this continent).

 

[cabert]

Looks as though the general consensus (not shared by everyone, I know, but going by the majority) is:

• Use the GM for a trade mission, probably to London, to fund research.
• Take the tech trade with Churchill and the peace with JC.
• Switch targets to Mail--pillage, pillage, pillage!
• Use my next settler for "New Tolosa", 1SE of the corn.
• Research Construction, forgo the GL (or just capture it later on, chances are it will be built on this continent).

you don't need my agreement of course, but I disagree on almost every point :lol
- I'd settle the merchant, either in bibracte to allow more specialists = more GPPs or in coppercow for more production capacity. the money /turn will be good
- I'd stop building this settler. You have enough cities to capture, no need to build any.
- I'd try to get calendar from churchill all right, but not for this price. Alphabet alone (+ some money if necessary)would be enough. You don't want to face HA.
- I'd finish Rome. I didn't check if any city is worth keeping, but he has 2 sources of Iron. 10 turns is enough to connect at least one and build praetorians = problems.
- construction is indeed the best tech next. try to get CoL through trades fast. MM will probably have it soon enough .

 

[lukep]

Looks as though the general consensus (not shared by everyone, I know, but going by the majority) is:

you are a better player than me so my advices can be more than a bit weedy , but :

• Use the GM for a trade mission, probably to London, to fund research.
  
  i would settle in coppercow
  
• Take the tech trade with Churchill and the peace with JC.
  
  trade seems a bit costly, but ok
  make peace ok but just to build a real force of keshiks.
  everybody said they are good to pillage, but they can take city too, if you use proper proms for softnening opponnents (flanking1+2 or combat1/flanking1 for harder targets). the very nice point in going with only a full horde is the speed at which you can raze cities. no 1 movement unit can follow.
  
  in my parallel game, kill ratio for keshiks was near 2:1. not bad for a (relatively) cheap unit. for dealing with longbows you will need the cats though if on hill.
  
• Switch targets to Mail--pillage, pillage, pillage!
  
  not yet imho. later on, when the horde has finished JC and longbows are commons.
  
• Use my next settler for "New Tolosa", 1SE of the corn.
• Research Construction, forgo the GL (or just capture it later on, chances are it will be built on this continent).
  
  that i agree.

 

[UncleJJ]

you don't need my agreement of course, but I disagree on almost every point :lol
- I'd settle the merchant, either in bibracte to allow more specialists = more GPPs or in coppercow for more production capacity. the money /turn will be good
- I'd stop building this settler. You have enough cities to capture, no need to build any.
- I'd try to get calendar from churchill all right, but not for this price. Alphabet alone (+ some money if necessary)would be enough. You don't want to face HA.
- I'd finish Rome. I didn't check if any city is worth keeping, but he has 2 sources of Iron. 10 turns is enough to connect at least one and build praetorians = problems.
- construction is indeed the best tech next. try to get CoL through trades fast. MM will probably have it soon enough .

Spot on cabert . I agree with all of this, especially settling the GM in Bribacte to boost the production of future GPs. I''d whip a market in there to boost gold and to allow 2 merchant specialists to be run. At present gold and beakers are worth the same. Make Bribacte your wealth city and GP farm.

The economy is much more promising now. So research Construction for catapults and War Huffalumps... that is all you need to crush the Romans and probably your next target too.

I see that all the Roman cities have a lot of coastal tiles so the obvious choice to get a rapid commerce boost is Collossus, and that would fit nicely in Bribacte adding a 2 merchant GPPs/turn. Plenty of forests there that need chopping for something and Collosus boosts commerce more than any other wonder right now.

Longer term: as things look right now I would keep Mansa as a friend and trading partner and move through his territory to attack Churchill or Bismark. War will only cost -1 on diplomacy and your troops will be able to hide in Mansas territory. You might even be able to bribe him to attack one of them. Of course things might change by the time we get consider attacking them. We have good relations with Mansa, Churchill and Bismark so we should be able to pick them off one at a time for little diplomatic loss.

Research: With Kublai I'd try something different from the traditional race to Liberalism and concentrate on expansion and military techs. We might fall behind in techs but who cares if our army is bigger and better trained. Let Mansa the others doe our research for us. So something like this Construction, Metal Casting (for Forges and Collosus), Monarchy, Code of Laws, Compass (harbours) and Optics (whales and caravels for circumnavigation and find the other 2 civs)

 

[bardolph]

Trade Mission in Kumbi Saleh definitely seems like the best bet, unless you have a dire need for Metal Casting right now, which I don't see.

 

[KMadCandy]

- I'd settle the merchant, either in bibracte to allow more specialists = more GPPs or in coppercow for more production capacity. the money /turn will be good

uncle JJ made the point about GPPs too but i don't get it. settled GPs don't add GPPs. they add beakers under rep, and culture with sistine, but they don't increase the rate you generate other GPs directly. what am i missing here? maybe you just mean the extra food would pay for half a specialist?

i'm assuming you suggest coppercow would have its production capacity increased by the +1 food, since merchants don't add hammers directly. i'd put him in a holy city if we think the game will go long enough for corporation and wall street, but it looks like it might not, we look on track to kick butt then go on settling frenzy for land area/population. and bibracte isn't the best spread holy city atm anyway, so that's probably a wash.

ps love the new avatar

 

[Sisiutil]

uncle JJ made the point about GPPs too but i don't get it. settled GPs don't add GPPs. they add beakers under rep, and culture with sistine, but they don't increase the rate you generate other GPs directly. what am i missing here? maybe you just mean the extra food would pay for half a specialist?

i'm assuming you suggest coppercow would have its production capacity increased by the +1 food, since merchants don't add hammers directly. i'd put him in a holy city if we think the game will go long enough for corporation and wall street, but it looks like it might not, we look on track to kick butt then go on settling frenzy for land area/population. and bibracte isn't the best spread holy city atm anyway, so that's probably a wash.

ps love the new avatar

Yeah, I puzzled over cabert's point with the GM for a while too, but I think that's what he meant. I dunno, seems like a weak use of a Great Person to me. I'm still leaning towards the trade mission to fund deficit research. However, cabert's and UncaJJ's other points are well taken. In particular, I'll see if I can get Calendar without giving up HBR.

 

[patagonia]

Yeah, I puzzled over cabert's point with the GM for a while too, but I think that's what he meant. I dunno, seems like a weak use of a Great Person to me. I'm still leaning towards the trade mission to fund deficit research. However, cabert's and UncaJJ's other points are well taken. In particular, I'll see if I can get Calendar without giving up HBR.

There's no right or wrong answer over what to do with the GM (apart from bulbing currency - that would be ). However, if you're aiming for an early domination win, you want the greatest short-term benefit, which comes from the trade mission. If you're planning a more leisurely romp across the continent, then settling him may have a greater payoff.

If you focus heavily on war, you can probably have Mali and England toasted within 100 turns in which time he'd have net you 100 food and 600 gold settled - not enough to justify settling him in my opinion.

 

[LucyDuke]

• Take the tech trade with Churchill and the peace with JC.
• Switch targets to Mail--pillage, pillage, pillage!

Kill Caesar.

If you kick the moose, take the gem/iron city. It'll pay for itself.

 

[cabert]

Yeah, I puzzled over cabert's point with the GM for a while too, but I think that's what he meant. I dunno, seems like a weak use of a Great Person to me. I'm still leaning towards the trade mission to fund deficit research. However, cabert's and UncaJJ's other points are well taken. In particular, I'll see if I can get Calendar without giving up HBR.

the settled great merchant in bibracte = 1 food + 6 gold/turn.
That + a market = 1/2 merchant you can feed with the extra food = 9.4 gold/turn + 1.5 gpp /turn.
This means bibracte will be gold city for the rest of the game + your gp farm.