pigswill
fly (one day)
A starting point might be to grow your existing cities (no whipping, maybe the occasional chop for CH) so that a couple can divert to GS production while the others churn out settlers/workers.
ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Because of the truth of the 2nd statement, I can question the 1st. I've won space race wins without aluminum, a golden age, the Three Gorges Dam, or the Space Elevator.
I think domination and conquest are out of the question, frankly, but space, cultural, or diplomatic are all on the table. But ReX comes first. My aim is to have all my cities established by the end of the next round. That might mean a little military build-up too, to get rid of that barb city.
BlueSoxSWJ
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 92
Here's my dotmap, reasoning below.
I don't like yellow ?. It takes an area that could easily hold 2 good cities, or 3 good/decent cities, and breaks it up. Here are my alternates for that area:
1, once the jungle was cleared, would be a cottage powerhouse, though it would grow slowly. 2 would have 8 coast tiles, thanks to the other island, and could grow quickly with the wheat, working those coastal tiles (net 0 food w/ lighthouse) for 2
until cottages could be layed out. 3 would be optional, with a lot of overlap/ocean, but some forests and iron to at least have halfway decent production.Or, alternative 2:
Here, 1 would be more of a hybrid, with the iron mine and lots of cottageable jungle. 2 now has more land to work with and less ocean, but still has the wheat and some coast to hold its own until workers can cottage up. On this one, there are only 2 tiles of overlap, and one is a peak.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
On the subject of tech, the dearth of happiness actually makes construction slightly more attractive. Colosseum's are +1
which isn't to be sniffed at in this sort of situation, and the +1 forges will give wouldn't hurt either.However, if you think you'll get to CS during the REX phase with the opportunity to research those techs quickly once you're in Bureaucracy, then go for it.
On a hammer-miser tack, is it worth having one city unconnected to the trade network as a warrior pump for cheap garrisons/MPs?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
That's what I was thinking--take a page from aelf's recent games and bypass certain techs entirely, then backfill them later or not at all.On the subject of tech, the dearth of happiness actually makes construction slightly more attractive. Colosseum's are +1
However, if you think you'll get to CS during the REX phase with the opportunity to research those techs quickly once you're in Bureaucracy, then go for it.
On a hammer-miser tack, is it worth having one city unconnected to the trade network as a warrior pump for cheap garrisons/MPs?
As for the Warriors, that's why I've hung on to all those extra ones I built for defense who are now fog-busting.
Oh no, he's taking my advice.
Just to reiterate (and make sure you're doing this right) as many cities as possible should be founded on the same turn. Since we're not worried about maturing cottages, delaying the founding of cities for 15+ turns won't cause a major problem, unless Barbs start settling. For this REX, I would suggest 5 cities. Going by the below dotmap, these 5 would cover the pinky city in the NW, the eastern red city, the SE pink and blue, and one city in the NE to fog bust, of your choosing. Then, start on a courthouse until you have a pop of 2, start on a worker, whip the worker, finish/whip the courthouse then jump to Caste System.
Your existing cities *must* have a Library and Hammam before this point. I would almost say that Hammers are more important than commerce right now. Anyway, I would normally suggest you staying in Slavery longer, but now that you have Hammams, it's a waste to whip your large populations away on markets, grocers, etc. when they could be producing you GSs and beakers. Anyway, once you fog bust, you can go back to slow expansion. Although, make sure you claim all of the land shortly after you make first contact. Some AIs are quick to grab Astronomy after Optics and I'd hate to see a foreign city settled.
The make or break here will be how you manage your workers. Until you get Civil Service, you're better off improving the tiles around the pink and blue cities. Clearing jungle, or even constructing roads, in the other cities is a waste. Just improve one tile in order to help along the Courthouse, then move away.
And if this all fails, at least Sis won't be to blame ;D.
EDIT
I fgailed to address the issue of the Barb city in the NW. I would personally raze and rebuild it. It's in a horrible location, and shifting it 1 or 2 tiles SE will make for a much better city. I haven't loaded the save to see what units it contains, or the type, but I would raze it withing the expansion parameters I go by.
Every city should have an Axeman. If you're going to settle 5 cities (possibly 6), you need 5 units. We have 2 fogbusters that can turn into defenders, so we will require 3 more axemen. These 3 axemen should be enough to raze that Barb city, unless they go crazy with the Archers. Again, I don't know your existing military, but it may behoove you to whip 1 Axeman and build another before starting on Settlers. That way you can raze the city for gold and lessen the threat of the settler you send to the NW.
Just to reiterate (and make sure you're doing this right) as many cities as possible should be founded on the same turn. Since we're not worried about maturing cottages, delaying the founding of cities for 15+ turns won't cause a major problem, unless Barbs start settling. For this REX, I would suggest 5 cities. Going by the below dotmap, these 5 would cover the pinky city in the NW, the eastern red city, the SE pink and blue, and one city in the NE to fog bust, of your choosing. Then, start on a courthouse until you have a pop of 2, start on a worker, whip the worker, finish/whip the courthouse then jump to Caste System.
Your existing cities *must* have a Library and Hammam before this point. I would almost say that Hammers are more important than commerce right now. Anyway, I would normally suggest you staying in Slavery longer, but now that you have Hammams, it's a waste to whip your large populations away on markets, grocers, etc. when they could be producing you GSs and beakers. Anyway, once you fog bust, you can go back to slow expansion. Although, make sure you claim all of the land shortly after you make first contact. Some AIs are quick to grab Astronomy after Optics and I'd hate to see a foreign city settled.
The make or break here will be how you manage your workers. Until you get Civil Service, you're better off improving the tiles around the pink and blue cities. Clearing jungle, or even constructing roads, in the other cities is a waste. Just improve one tile in order to help along the Courthouse, then move away.
And if this all fails, at least Sis won't be to blame ;D.
EDIT
I fgailed to address the issue of the Barb city in the NW. I would personally raze and rebuild it. It's in a horrible location, and shifting it 1 or 2 tiles SE will make for a much better city. I haven't loaded the save to see what units it contains, or the type, but I would raze it withing the expansion parameters I go by.
Every city should have an Axeman. If you're going to settle 5 cities (possibly 6), you need 5 units. We have 2 fogbusters that can turn into defenders, so we will require 3 more axemen. These 3 axemen should be enough to raze that Barb city, unless they go crazy with the Archers. Again, I don't know your existing military, but it may behoove you to whip 1 Axeman and build another before starting on Settlers. That way you can raze the city for gold and lessen the threat of the settler you send to the NW.
I don't understand how people are still suggesting that Liberalism is possible. If my math is right 1100AD (the early end of the AI's Liberalism window) is only 46 turns away. 100 turns after the restart would take it to 1424AD, around the end of the time when you can expect the AIs to get Liberalism. CS is currently showing as taking 75 turns to research. This can be speeded up somewhat by city development and reassigning citizens. However any sort of expansion in the next round will prevent any significant speedup. And REXing will kill the research rate for a while. Even if Sisiutil could somehow get CS done in time he would need to generate 4 GSs to completely lightbulb Phil, Paper and Edu. Given the current low population and food supply I don't see how that's possible. And even if the GSs could somehow be produced in time that would still leave Liberalism to research which isn't going to be quick.
I wonder if any of the people advocating trying for Liberalism would want to indicate how many turns they think it will take.
My advice for Sisiutil at this point would be:
Ignore the Liberalism path for now and focus on more immediately useful techs. Currency then finish Sailing then Monarchy. These three can be finished in about the same time as CS and will provide more immediate benefits.
The reason you are so low in GNP is because you are so low in population. This means more cities with higher population, so REX and stop whipping. Infrastructure isn't as important as gaining population at this point, and all of the cities will have decent production available to build any needed buildings.
I would reconfigure Istanbul to work all the food tiles and cottages but no mines so it can grow quickly to size 8. At that point switch to building a settler and work all the food and mine tiles (no cottages). That will allow settlers to be produced in 8 turns, so in around 40 turns you can settle 4 more cities. I've included a dotmap as to where I think cities should go in the NE part of the continent. I would settle the red, then yellow, then green then orange. The yellow city could be moved 1E to get the cows, but I think the site I've indicated provides a little higher productivity in the long term. The blue dot city will make a good ironworks city with around 50 base hammers, but I don't think it needs to be settled any time soon since you don't need iron or production at this point. The purple dots in the NW and on the island can wait until later, although you could be seeing AI galleons within the next 100 turns.
While Istanbul is building the settlers Edirne and Ankara should be building missionaries, workers and any additional military needed. You might want to think about building chariots instead of axes at this point since they're cheaper.
BTW your current military is incorrectly deployed. You have axes defending your cities while warriors are on barb sentry duty. The roles should be reversed. You want to use the strong units to keep the barbs away from your cities and their precious tile improvements.
I wonder if any of the people advocating trying for Liberalism would want to indicate how many turns they think it will take.
My advice for Sisiutil at this point would be:
Ignore the Liberalism path for now and focus on more immediately useful techs. Currency then finish Sailing then Monarchy. These three can be finished in about the same time as CS and will provide more immediate benefits.
The reason you are so low in GNP is because you are so low in population. This means more cities with higher population, so REX and stop whipping. Infrastructure isn't as important as gaining population at this point, and all of the cities will have decent production available to build any needed buildings.
I would reconfigure Istanbul to work all the food tiles and cottages but no mines so it can grow quickly to size 8. At that point switch to building a settler and work all the food and mine tiles (no cottages). That will allow settlers to be produced in 8 turns, so in around 40 turns you can settle 4 more cities. I've included a dotmap as to where I think cities should go in the NE part of the continent. I would settle the red, then yellow, then green then orange. The yellow city could be moved 1E to get the cows, but I think the site I've indicated provides a little higher productivity in the long term. The blue dot city will make a good ironworks city with around 50 base hammers, but I don't think it needs to be settled any time soon since you don't need iron or production at this point. The purple dots in the NW and on the island can wait until later, although you could be seeing AI galleons within the next 100 turns.
While Istanbul is building the settlers Edirne and Ankara should be building missionaries, workers and any additional military needed. You might want to think about building chariots instead of axes at this point since they're cheaper.
BTW your current military is incorrectly deployed. You have axes defending your cities while warriors are on barb sentry duty. The roles should be reversed. You want to use the strong units to keep the barbs away from your cities and their precious tile improvements.
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BlueSoxSWJ
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 92
Just realized after Validator's post that the light blue BFC in Scaphism's dotmap is misplaced. Given that, I'd either switch to Val's dotmap or use my second variation on Scaphism's, but with red city 1 moved 1 W to use more land.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
You're right. Communism and Communism are absolutely vital for any economy.
Ack. Apologies all, I had Istanbul (the capital!) in the wrong spot. I blame it on all those sugar tiles obscuring the location.
And I will definitely concede that the light yellow ? on my map is the area I'm most unsure of. If extra cities could be squeezed in (and useful) then go for it, I'm just not sure how to fit it in there myself.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I would recommend that Sisiutil makes use of Organised trait to run as many cities as possible on the island, half price courthouses and cheap civics reduce city maintenance costs significantly. There are going to be health/happy caps for a while yet. Twenty size 10 cities work as many tiles as ten size 20 cities . Every tile that can be worked mid-game will help Sisiutil overcome the isolation and catch up.
Its also worth considering heading for astronomy instead of liberalism to open up overseas trade routes asap.
Its also worth considering heading for astronomy instead of liberalism to open up overseas trade routes asap.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 4: 420 AD to 1280 AD
A long round because, when you're isolated, it takes a while for anything to happen.
I started off by running a couple of scientists in Istanbul to help research and to hopefully generate a Great Scientist, though I was well aware I had GP competition from the Oracle.
I decide to follow Validator's recommendations regarding techs, pursuing Currency and then Monarchy. Civil Service was just going to take too darn long. My builds were a mix: granaries, courthouses, libraries, hammams, workers, settlers, Axemen.
Meanwhile, I started expanding, beginning with this city:
Why that one first? I wanted access to the iron. That barb city was a threat and a nuisance and I wanted to take care of it ASAP. Some Swordsmen would fit the bill in that regard; I built a couple of barracks to give them City Raider I promotions. Plus this city was a step towards fog-busting the rest of the island.
Several turns later, I finally finished researching Currency:
That seemed to help the economy a little bit, though of course I only have domestic trade routes at the moment.
I generated my next Great Person, unfortunately not the Great Scientist I was hoping for, but a Great Prophet. He would have lightbulbed Polytheism, which was hardly worth bothering about at this point. So I settled him in the holy city instead. The 5 gold would help the economy, and the 2 hammers were welcome in a city that's short on them.
And then everybody and his dog started showing up just to rub in how backward I am.
There were more to come, but first, I finished researching Monarchy...
... and switched to Hereditary Rule right away.
I also managed to raze that barb city, at the cost of a couple of Axemen:
Yes, and I even got a Worker out of it in the bargain. I was tempted to keep it, but it's not exactly in an ideal spot. Not one of all your helpful dotmaps had a city in that location.
More civs continued to show up. Seems like everybody else discovered Optics at around the same time. Worse still, I can't help thinking they're all tech-trading amongst each other.
Evidently the best was saved for last.
So there I am, isolated and in dead last place, without a tech to trade even to lowly Huyana, who is Catherine's vassal and God only knows what else. I'm torn between feeling sorry for the guy and suffering pangs of jealously.
Catherine was the first to discover Liberalism, while Cyrus was the first to circumnavigate the globe. Cyrus was also, evidently, the first to discover Astronomy (I'm not sure what Catherine chose as her Liberalism tech). A fact from which I could immediately benefit:
Fortunately, I was now in a position to rapidly settle the rest of my island, so I don't anticipate the AI settling on my little landmass anytime soon. Invasion, however, is another matter, as I'm dead last in power. But I'll get into that in the next post, which deals with the state of the world.
A long round because, when you're isolated, it takes a while for anything to happen.
I started off by running a couple of scientists in Istanbul to help research and to hopefully generate a Great Scientist, though I was well aware I had GP competition from the Oracle.
I decide to follow Validator's recommendations regarding techs, pursuing Currency and then Monarchy. Civil Service was just going to take too darn long. My builds were a mix: granaries, courthouses, libraries, hammams, workers, settlers, Axemen.
Meanwhile, I started expanding, beginning with this city:
Why that one first? I wanted access to the iron. That barb city was a threat and a nuisance and I wanted to take care of it ASAP. Some Swordsmen would fit the bill in that regard; I built a couple of barracks to give them City Raider I promotions. Plus this city was a step towards fog-busting the rest of the island.
Several turns later, I finally finished researching Currency:
That seemed to help the economy a little bit, though of course I only have domestic trade routes at the moment.
I generated my next Great Person, unfortunately not the Great Scientist I was hoping for, but a Great Prophet. He would have lightbulbed Polytheism, which was hardly worth bothering about at this point. So I settled him in the holy city instead. The 5 gold would help the economy, and the 2 hammers were welcome in a city that's short on them.
And then everybody and his dog started showing up just to rub in how backward I am.
There were more to come, but first, I finished researching Monarchy...
... and switched to Hereditary Rule right away.
I also managed to raze that barb city, at the cost of a couple of Axemen:
Yes, and I even got a Worker out of it in the bargain. I was tempted to keep it, but it's not exactly in an ideal spot. Not one of all your helpful dotmaps had a city in that location.
More civs continued to show up. Seems like everybody else discovered Optics at around the same time. Worse still, I can't help thinking they're all tech-trading amongst each other.
Evidently the best was saved for last.
So there I am, isolated and in dead last place, without a tech to trade even to lowly Huyana, who is Catherine's vassal and God only knows what else. I'm torn between feeling sorry for the guy and suffering pangs of jealously.
Catherine was the first to discover Liberalism, while Cyrus was the first to circumnavigate the globe. Cyrus was also, evidently, the first to discover Astronomy (I'm not sure what Catherine chose as her Liberalism tech). A fact from which I could immediately benefit:
Fortunately, I was now in a position to rapidly settle the rest of my island, so I don't anticipate the AI settling on my little landmass anytime soon. Invasion, however, is another matter, as I'm dead last in power. But I'll get into that in the next post, which deals with the state of the world.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
The State of the World, 1280 AD
Let's start off with a look at the map:
So I now have 11 cities, which is more than enough to pursue a cultural win.
To help in that potential regard, I deliberately avoided spreading Confucianism to my new cities using missionaries. I had better things to spend hammers on and the shrine in Edirne ensured that some of those cities converted on their own. But if you look closely, you might notice that Bursa managed to pick up Buddhism!
That could be helpful in several regards. Obviously, if I go for a cultural victory, the more religions, the better (they've all been founded now, by the way). In addition, Cyrus, Frederick, and Ragnar are Buddhists, so I could potentially join their diplomatic block by converting.
I'm hoping some of my other new cities will pick up another religion or two on their own. Judaism would be nice, since that would give me the choice between the Buddhist or the Jewish diplomatic blocks. Hinduism would be nice for culture, but I'm sure everybody else already hates Monty and I have no desire to join his club. However, if and when Monty gets Astronomy, that will likely spell trouble for me.
On another note, I haven't settled that northeast island yet. Should I bother at this point? I don't have any Settlers ready to go (though I am building a Galley), and I wouldn't be surprised if Cyrus beat me there.
The domestic advisor:
A mix of builds, but all of them civilian. I figure I'm safe from military incursion for some time, and besides, what would I throw at them if I was invaded? Nevertheless, a conversion to Buddhism to gain some allies is sounding more attractive the more I think about it.
Civics:
It would be nice to have and run one of the religions civics, but that clearly isn't an option yet. This is going to be one of those games where I bypass a lot of techs, I think. I'm not even thinking about wonders anymore. I'll be lucky just to survive, let alone win.
However, I think it's time I switched to Caste System, agreed?
Diplomacy:
Yeah, I suppose it would be helpful to see how everybody feels about everybody else, though you can gather some of that. Cathy and Huayna are tolerating Monty (they have Open Borders agreements with him), while the Buddhist block is clearly not happy with him (no OB). And Monty is the one who likes me the least. As I said, if and when he gets Galleons, I'm going to have to watch out.
Technologies... brace yourself!
Mind you, I could potentially do without a lot of those techs, like Hunting and Archery, for example. I don't even need Alphabet in a big hurry since (a) everyone else has it and (b) I have no techs to trade anyway.
I don't see any way to rectify this situation in a hurry. I'm thinking I should finish Civil Service, then research Calendar so I can get my sugar plantations going for some more trade, hopefully, once everyone else starts getting Astronomy. After that, I'm thinking Machinery and Engineering in order to defend myself just in case someone gets any funny ideas.
Active trade deals:
Religion:
So I have 3 cities which could, potentially, still acquire another religion. I suppose that's an argument in favour of settling more cities, but I really think I need to focus on building up the ones I have. I mean, my research is down to 10%! Granted I expanded pretty quickly in the last few turns, but any more cities, especially further away on that rock, for example, and I might start losing the units I need to boost happiness in my cities.
Victory conditions:
The one bit of good news there is the land area I have, and keep in mind several of my newest cities have not experienced their first border pop. That, I think, bodes well: I have a lot more land--and very good land at that--than several of the other civs. I just have to stay alive long enough to benefit from it.
The power graph:
Not so good. Even vassalized Huayna looks like he could kick my butt. If, of course, he had Galleons. But Catherine can't be far away from getting those. There's a problem: if I convert to Buddhism, it'll tick her off, and who's to say my Buddhist buddies would come to may aid? Nevertheless, some allies are better than none.
Demographics:
As I said, the good news there is that I've got land, lots of land: I'm #2 in land area. And I'm number 1 in my approval rating. Well, all that indicates is that, as usual, I'm probably not whipping enough. I guess the other bit of good news here is that they're nowhere to go but up!
And we finally have some information about who built all those wonders:
Cathy's been a busy girl. And here I was thinking it was an Industrious leader, but clearly the only leader with that trait--Huayna--has been falling down in that regard (and several others, evidently, since he's now a mere vassal). Though he did manage to build Chichen Itza; well, big whoop, Mr. Industrious, you built the worst wonder in the game! I'm dead last but at least I managed the Oracle! Russia must have sources of both stone and marble, I'm thinking.
Anyway, that's where things stand. On the positive side, I think I can get the cottage economy going to restore my economy and research. I don't think the tech lead is as insurmountable as it looks so long as I pick my techs carefully.
In that regard, I have a choice: I can either plod along and pick up techs I need that the AI civs already have, or I can gamble on more expensive and advanced techs in hopes of trading them. Frankly, at this point, I'm so far behind that the former approach makes more sense. By the time I nab a tech, everyone else is likely to have it. The only exception might be lightbulbing, but we'll see. I truly believe that a late-game Internet bee-line will be required for a space race win.
The key, I think, is going to be avoiding an invasion, or dealing with one if and when it does occur. Diplomacy is going to be very important. So a conversion to Buddhism might be the key first move in the next round.
Let's start off with a look at the map:
So I now have 11 cities, which is more than enough to pursue a cultural win.
To help in that potential regard, I deliberately avoided spreading Confucianism to my new cities using missionaries. I had better things to spend hammers on and the shrine in Edirne ensured that some of those cities converted on their own. But if you look closely, you might notice that Bursa managed to pick up Buddhism!
That could be helpful in several regards. Obviously, if I go for a cultural victory, the more religions, the better (they've all been founded now, by the way). In addition, Cyrus, Frederick, and Ragnar are Buddhists, so I could potentially join their diplomatic block by converting.
I'm hoping some of my other new cities will pick up another religion or two on their own. Judaism would be nice, since that would give me the choice between the Buddhist or the Jewish diplomatic blocks. Hinduism would be nice for culture, but I'm sure everybody else already hates Monty and I have no desire to join his club. However, if and when Monty gets Astronomy, that will likely spell trouble for me.
On another note, I haven't settled that northeast island yet. Should I bother at this point? I don't have any Settlers ready to go (though I am building a Galley), and I wouldn't be surprised if Cyrus beat me there.
The domestic advisor:
A mix of builds, but all of them civilian. I figure I'm safe from military incursion for some time, and besides, what would I throw at them if I was invaded? Nevertheless, a conversion to Buddhism to gain some allies is sounding more attractive the more I think about it.
Civics:
It would be nice to have and run one of the religions civics, but that clearly isn't an option yet. This is going to be one of those games where I bypass a lot of techs, I think. I'm not even thinking about wonders anymore. I'll be lucky just to survive, let alone win.
However, I think it's time I switched to Caste System, agreed?
Diplomacy:
Yeah, I suppose it would be helpful to see how everybody feels about everybody else, though you can gather some of that. Cathy and Huayna are tolerating Monty (they have Open Borders agreements with him), while the Buddhist block is clearly not happy with him (no OB). And Monty is the one who likes me the least. As I said, if and when he gets Galleons, I'm going to have to watch out.
Technologies... brace yourself!
Mind you, I could potentially do without a lot of those techs, like Hunting and Archery, for example. I don't even need Alphabet in a big hurry since (a) everyone else has it and (b) I have no techs to trade anyway.
I don't see any way to rectify this situation in a hurry. I'm thinking I should finish Civil Service, then research Calendar so I can get my sugar plantations going for some more trade, hopefully, once everyone else starts getting Astronomy. After that, I'm thinking Machinery and Engineering in order to defend myself just in case someone gets any funny ideas.
Active trade deals:
Religion:
So I have 3 cities which could, potentially, still acquire another religion. I suppose that's an argument in favour of settling more cities, but I really think I need to focus on building up the ones I have. I mean, my research is down to 10%! Granted I expanded pretty quickly in the last few turns, but any more cities, especially further away on that rock, for example, and I might start losing the units I need to boost happiness in my cities.
Victory conditions:
The one bit of good news there is the land area I have, and keep in mind several of my newest cities have not experienced their first border pop. That, I think, bodes well: I have a lot more land--and very good land at that--than several of the other civs. I just have to stay alive long enough to benefit from it.
The power graph:
Not so good. Even vassalized Huayna looks like he could kick my butt. If, of course, he had Galleons. But Catherine can't be far away from getting those. There's a problem: if I convert to Buddhism, it'll tick her off, and who's to say my Buddhist buddies would come to may aid? Nevertheless, some allies are better than none.
Demographics:
As I said, the good news there is that I've got land, lots of land: I'm #2 in land area. And I'm number 1 in my approval rating. Well, all that indicates is that, as usual, I'm probably not whipping enough. I guess the other bit of good news here is that they're nowhere to go but up!
And we finally have some information about who built all those wonders:
Cathy's been a busy girl. And here I was thinking it was an Industrious leader, but clearly the only leader with that trait--Huayna--has been falling down in that regard (and several others, evidently, since he's now a mere vassal). Though he did manage to build Chichen Itza; well, big whoop, Mr. Industrious, you built the worst wonder in the game! I'm dead last but at least I managed the Oracle! Russia must have sources of both stone and marble, I'm thinking.
Anyway, that's where things stand. On the positive side, I think I can get the cottage economy going to restore my economy and research. I don't think the tech lead is as insurmountable as it looks so long as I pick my techs carefully.
In that regard, I have a choice: I can either plod along and pick up techs I need that the AI civs already have, or I can gamble on more expensive and advanced techs in hopes of trading them. Frankly, at this point, I'm so far behind that the former approach makes more sense. By the time I nab a tech, everyone else is likely to have it. The only exception might be lightbulbing, but we'll see. I truly believe that a late-game Internet bee-line will be required for a space race win.
The key, I think, is going to be avoiding an invasion, or dealing with one if and when it does occur. Diplomacy is going to be very important. So a conversion to Buddhism might be the key first move in the next round.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Its certainly a Challenge.
At least you'll get a discount on known techs now. Once cities start growing your GNP is likely to increase (it could even double to 2
).
It might be worth stockpiling any GPs you get (and work on getting some more) so that you might have a chance of some decent lightbulbs later.
I think you're better off with NSR; its safer to have no friends than to have just one enemy. Tech-trading is certainly something for the future (probably 17th century).
Good Luck .
Don't listen to the pessimists.
At least you'll get a discount on known techs now. Once cities start growing your GNP is likely to increase (it could even double to 2
).It might be worth stockpiling any GPs you get (and work on getting some more) so that you might have a chance of some decent lightbulbs later.
I think you're better off with NSR; its safer to have no friends than to have just one enemy. Tech-trading is certainly something for the future (probably 17th century).
Good Luck
.Don't listen to the pessimists.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I'm not so sure about this assertion. One problem, of course, is that no state religion would instantly take the happiness cap down by 1. It also renders any religious civics I manage to get useless, aside from Free Religion (but of course I don't have any religious civics now and I'm not targeting any). But I'll wait to see what everyone else thinks of this idea.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Well, what to say? The REXing is (almost)done, now just cut the jungle and cottage it. The small island is crap; let Cyrus take it if he wants to.
About religion, maybe go budhist would help with the Buda guys and it wouldn't hurt the diplo with the others more than staying confucian. So, why not?
With luck, you'll get a GS in 19 turns. I think that you should lightbulb it ( It would give you one less step to go...).
About defence ( against Monty , most surely ) ,Gunpowder is too far away... and you can't rely only in catakazies. So Machinery and Engineering it is...
About victory Types, you seem to be thinking in cultural. I must concur that the space prospecs are starting to be dim, but if you want to go cultural with two religions, you must go to Caste System ASAP ( Music GA and Sistine are gone, so you'll probably need Mercantilism and SoL ) and let cities grow ( one of your cities will need long chain irrigation for farming).
About religion, maybe go budhist would help with the Buda guys and it wouldn't hurt the diplo with the others more than staying confucian. So, why not?
With luck, you'll get a GS in 19 turns. I think that you should lightbulb it ( It would give you one less step to go...).
About defence ( against Monty , most surely ) ,Gunpowder is too far away... and you can't rely only in catakazies. So Machinery and Engineering it is...
About victory Types, you seem to be thinking in cultural. I must concur that the space prospecs are starting to be dim, but if you want to go cultural with two religions, you must go to Caste System ASAP ( Music GA and Sistine are gone, so you'll probably need Mercantilism and SoL ) and let cities grow ( one of your cities will need long chain irrigation for farming).
Ecofarm
Deity
Even if Cyrus, Fred, or Huayna founded Christianity, it is at 1%; 0 spread. There will not be a change in the religious blocks. Monty is a punching bag.
Do you think everyone has theology already? Maybe since they all have philosophy. They are all running organized religion.
If not, you can trade theology around... build a temple(s) in the oracle city and run a priest(s). Even if you never run a priest in that city again, the temples are happiness. Run some scientists too since philosophy wouldn't be bad (though everyone has it for sure). Convert to Buddhism now for the trade benefits needed when the great priest is born and to give them time to hate Monty/Jews. Research Mono, lightbulb theo. Trade it for CS, fued, Alpha, philosophy. Convert to no religion and trade with the Jewish block (no Monty trade should be necessary). Convert to Confucianism. Change civic to organized if you want buildings, theocracy for a few turns if you are worried that the Jews or Buddhists will hate you more than Monty. Even if they all have theology, you might still want access to organized because your are building buildings everywhere and theocracy since you need to build troops before astronomy can be militarily leveraged by the AI (10-30 turns?). Or you can go pacifism and spam artists, but I think it is too early for that.
Side comment: Without Monarchy, Priests would have lightbulbed Theology and then CS. That would have been better than unused happiness now with temples needed for cultural victory.
Edit: Since the Chapel is built, they probably all have theology. What are you going to trade?
You might get theology or CS, lightbulb paper, and find them offering education. Engineering? Are pikes that much better than crossbows, longbows, or maces? Catakazie vs stacks, spearakazie vs pillaging knights.
Pray for war. Since you have nothing to trade, you might try gifting anything you can to the most powerful buddhist, declaring on Monty, and then begging Buddhists to join the war. It's an almost suicidal attempt at causing a dogpile, but if anyone is going to xp_farm off inept AI naval invasions it might as well be you and if the dogpile happens, you are 1/2 way to igniting world war - If Monty goes Jew (he would have to lose hindi founding city), he could get help. You may not get peace from him, but you will not suffer casualities outside cultural borders.
Since you are not winning the liberalism race, you are not likey to have a tech up on the AIs again. Do you really want to just pray for the world war you need to ensure cultural freedom or Internet use, or are you going to do something about it? If you wait much longer and Monty picks you anyway, the invasion will be SoD instead of a furious trickle. If the Jews hit you because your power is so weak, Monty will be a one man dogpile. You need farms because you will never be able to defend your seafood (how close are you to astronomy/chemistry/combustion?).
I don't think research can end at ironclads. It will need to end at liberalism. No US or printing for cottages. Plod to liberal and spam artists after mono and perhaps theo. Ragnar is probably itching to fight with those berserkers about to finish researching +1move galleons.
Then again, Monty and Russia have border difficulties... a civic change by one of them could ignite them.
At least we have a monopoly on cows!
Do you think everyone has theology already? Maybe since they all have philosophy. They are all running organized religion.
If not, you can trade theology around... build a temple(s) in the oracle city and run a priest(s). Even if you never run a priest in that city again, the temples are happiness. Run some scientists too since philosophy wouldn't be bad (though everyone has it for sure). Convert to Buddhism now for the trade benefits needed when the great priest is born and to give them time to hate Monty/Jews. Research Mono, lightbulb theo. Trade it for CS, fued, Alpha, philosophy. Convert to no religion and trade with the Jewish block (no Monty trade should be necessary). Convert to Confucianism. Change civic to organized if you want buildings, theocracy for a few turns if you are worried that the Jews or Buddhists will hate you more than Monty. Even if they all have theology, you might still want access to organized because your are building buildings everywhere and theocracy since you need to build troops before astronomy can be militarily leveraged by the AI (10-30 turns?). Or you can go pacifism and spam artists, but I think it is too early for that.
Side comment: Without Monarchy, Priests would have lightbulbed Theology and then CS. That would have been better than unused happiness now with temples needed for cultural victory.
Edit: Since the Chapel is built, they probably all have theology. What are you going to trade?
You might get theology or CS, lightbulb paper, and find them offering education. Engineering? Are pikes that much better than crossbows, longbows, or maces? Catakazie vs stacks, spearakazie vs pillaging knights.
Pray for war. Since you have nothing to trade, you might try gifting anything you can to the most powerful buddhist, declaring on Monty, and then begging Buddhists to join the war. It's an almost suicidal attempt at causing a dogpile, but if anyone is going to xp_farm off inept AI naval invasions it might as well be you and if the dogpile happens, you are 1/2 way to igniting world war - If Monty goes Jew (he would have to lose hindi founding city), he could get help. You may not get peace from him, but you will not suffer casualities outside cultural borders.
Since you are not winning the liberalism race, you are not likey to have a tech up on the AIs again. Do you really want to just pray for the world war you need to ensure cultural freedom or Internet use, or are you going to do something about it? If you wait much longer and Monty picks you anyway, the invasion will be SoD instead of a furious trickle. If the Jews hit you because your power is so weak, Monty will be a one man dogpile. You need farms because you will never be able to defend your seafood (how close are you to astronomy/chemistry/combustion?).
I don't think research can end at ironclads. It will need to end at liberalism. No US or printing for cottages. Plod to liberal and spam artists after mono and perhaps theo. Ragnar is probably itching to fight with those berserkers about to finish researching +1move galleons.
Then again, Monty and Russia have border difficulties... a civic change by one of them could ignite them.
Spoiler :
At least we have a monopoly on cows!
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