ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[MensSana]

I have read a lot of post regarding just these ALC, and they have always given me some insight on how people play, and whats good and whats not.
Recently I am involved in a game with an isolated start just like the one in this game, although I am much better off since I am playing Bismark, and as an indostriuous leader managed to pick up the pyramids, colossus, and the great library, and all those wonders made me the tech leader in the game for now. Although my landmass is much less, and could only fit 5 cities on the island, so I am wondering if to go for astronomy, which would destroy my colossus, but give me galleons for invading others.

But I have a question, since the game is similar to this one, would 5 cities be enough for a cultural win???

 

[pigswill]

The game is certainly winnable if you aren't invaded. You might want to whip courthouses and granaries (both cheap) in all your cities before switching to caste system.

A potential solution to tech deficit may be to study GP preferences and prereq techs etc. and go for a deep beeline (burning 3-4 GP very quickly to get an advanced monopoly tech then trade it for loads of others). In the long term cottage economy is the way to go however.

It might also be worth building some small cities on the island. You will need every tile you can get and you can't guarantee acquiring overseas possessions quickly or easily.

 

[Ecofarm]

@menssana: if you are financial, do not obsolete colosus

 

[Scaphism]

NE Island: Forget it, the AIs are on their way and you can't afford more cities or spending your hammers and food on settlers right now.

Caste System: At the very least whip granaries in all cities before switching. Granaries enable growth, which you need in order to run specialists.

Don't forget Expansive's +25% Hammers towards Worker production. There may not be many cottages now but Sisiutil just founded 7 cities last round. This dip is inevitable.

If/When you get Feudalism, you could think about switching to Serfdom for your army of workers to speed up how quickly they improve tiles. I don't think Feudalism is a priority right now, but it's something to keep in your back pocket. Unfortunately you're not spiritual.

Converting to Hinduism does seem like a no brainer, you're below the happiness cap in every city (as little as 3 under and as much as 7! in some cities). Right now, GROW GROW GROW, get citizens working tiles!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Whoever said Hammams aren't necessary? They're a no-brainer in every city (although after granary and courthouse). If it weren't for Hammams this game would be truly, utterly unsalvagable. And as far as space race is concerned, having Monty around is better than "Mansa Musa on the other continent". Everyone trading with the Mansa while you're isolated kinda means you're truly screwed too.

I repeat, I'd rather have Monty over MM any day.

 

[Nials]

Whoever said Hammams aren't necessary? They're a no-brainer in every city (although after granary and courthouse). If it weren't for Hammams this game would be truly, utterly unsalvagable. And as far as space race is concerned, having Monty around is better than "Mansa Musa on the other continent". Everyone trading with the Mansa while you're isolated kinda means you're truly screwed too.

I repeat, I'd rather have Monty over MM any day.

Hammams aren't necessary if your cities aren't anywhere near the happy or health caps. In that case it's clearly better to build something else first.

 

[cabert]

Hammams aren't necessary if your cities aren't anywhere near the happy or health caps. In that case it's clearly better to build something else first.

like a granary or a library

 

[Sisiutil]

like a granary or a library

Okey-dokey, I'll check the builds and adjust them accordingly. I'm mainly going to alternate between infrastructure and Workers. Serfdom is attractive, but a diversion to that tech is not. I might just compensate by leveraging the Expansive trait for more Workers.

I'll get the citizens working more cottages, but up until now, I've been focused on growth.

 

[Scaphism]

As for military, you will need to beef up one way or another. Your best units are currently Swordsmen (as soon as iron is hooked up). It's not great, but it will have to do for now. One of your cities should probably keep pumping out whatever it can.

For now your best hope is diplomacy. If you really expect a fight there are two choices to make: Gunpowder or Engineering. With Gunpowder you obviously get Janissaries. With Engineering you'd get Increased Road Movement, Catapaults, and Pikes. You have a large island and will probably have a smallish and spread out military. The extra road movement is what's most important to cover your territory effectively.

It seems likely that someone is going to declare on you - you are just a juicy target at the moment. So the questions are: How long do you think you have til someone does declare, and What is the best unit you could reasonably expect to field at that time?

For Gunpowder you'd probably go through CS->Paper->Education, a route you already plan to go to get to the cottage techs for your economic recovery.
Construction should be cheap-ish by now, but Engineering requires Metal Casting and Machinery.

How many beakers(and turns) it will take to get to either of those goals is fairly important at this point. I can't look at the save right now, hopefully someone else can.

 

[patagonia]

I might just compensate by leveraging the Expansive trait for more Workers.

I'll get the citizens working more cottages, but up until now, I've been focused on growth.

Stay focused on growth until you hit the happy cap, then stagnate working cottages. Unless you go purely cultural (which is an option, although space is the way I'd go in this situation), emancipation is what's going to salvage this so early cottage growing isn't an absolute priority - the ability to grow lots of cottages quickly (ie by having large cities and lots of workers to cottage over farms) is more important.

Essentially a deep beeline to democracy is key here. If that doesn't yield any trades, it'll give you the commerce necessary to make a subsequent beeline to something that will. The only military you really need at this stage of the game are catapults, which can pulverize any landing stack well enough...I'd grab Calendar for those sugar plantations and then get cracking on the long slog to the emancipation civic. If you can generate a GS or two to help along the way, so much the better.

Buddying up to the Buddhists is an option, but I'd be reluctant to pursue that at this early stage. It's going to be a long time before you have anything to bribe them with should Monty decide to attack you, and an equally long time before any of them become reasonable trading partners. Cyrus is unlikely to invade as he's generally one of the more agreeable AIs, but don't be surprised if a Persian galleon or two bearing settler parties shows up. Unfortunately even a single unclaimed tile will be enough for the AI to leap in at this stage of the game.

 

[LuckyAC]

A bit late now, but what was the point of expanding so rapidly when no one else was competing for land? It seems like this was one situation where you could expand exactly at your own pace and maximize your science, with a continent to yourself...

 

[scooter]

A bit late now, but what was the point of expanding so rapidly when no one else was competing for land? It seems like this was one situation where you could expand exactly at your own pace and maximize your science, with a continent to yourself...

I actually disagree, I think he made the right choice, as the AI should start showing up pretty soon with settler parties. Should be fun seeing him try to dig his way out of this one, looking forward to it.

 

[willpax]

Now this situation is looking more like one of my games. That's not good news. I often don't manage to salvage them.

One minor point, if possible: try to build up some tribute money. That might buy you a little grace if things get dicey, but not more than a few hundred. Otherwise, I would probably go for liberalism and democracy for the economy and research bonuses, then start the long space race. This will be a challenge, especially diplomatically.

 

[axident]

I actually disagree, I think he made the right choice, as the AI should start showing up pretty soon with settler parties. Should be fun seeing him try to dig his way out of this one, looking forward to it.

I agree. I've tried it both ways and REXing your own continent works better almost every time. You're screwed tech-wise no matter what; the majority of your catching-up will be done post-astro when someone finds you.

In this game: if we can keep the AIs at bay long enough to beeline for democracy and get even one tech over someone like Monty, that may be enough to bribe Monty (or whoever) into attacking someone else, if he doesn't do it himself. AI v AI wars drastically slow down the AI tech competition both in direct costs and indirectly because the land between two warring AIs tends to get pillaged to high hell, thus slowing down whoever wins the war almost as badly as whoever lost the war.

 

[KMadCandy]

I actually disagree, I think he made the right choice, as the AI should start showing up pretty soon with settler parties.

yeah, that's my theory too. if there is an AI left in the game, then they are going to have a settler on a boat, even if it's 2049 and all spots are taken. that's just the way they are. so i'd definitely have staked my claim now on the coast.

One minor point, if possible: try to build up some tribute money. That might buy you a little grace if things get dicey, but not more than a few hundred.

hmmz. i've always figured (but just from intuition, couldn't check code if i wanted to) that i shouldn't have too much money sitting around, because they'll ask for it; if i don't have it laying around, they can't ask for it, and i get to invest in science. sounds like you're saying that if you have money, and they ask for tribute and you give in, then they might not go to war with you yet? but if you don't have it, then they can't ask so the war is earlier by default. is that really how it works?

 

[scooter]

hmmz. i've always figured (but just from intuition, couldn't check code if i wanted to) that i shouldn't have too much money sitting around, because they'll ask for it; if i don't have it laying around, they can't ask for it, and i get to invest in science. sounds like you're saying that if you have money, and they ask for tribute and you give in, then they might not go to war with you yet? but if you don't have it, then they can't ask so the war is earlier by default. is that really how it works?

Only thing I can think of, is if you have the money, they'll ask for it to give you a chance, if you have nothing to give them, they'll just attack you giving you no chance to appease them, so I think what he's saying is if you have some money laying around that would give you the means to appease an AI, and maybe even get them to like you. Whether I agree or not... I'm not sure...

 

[cabert]

having money is good, for the reason cds0528 mentionned
having lots of money isn't, because AIs ask for a portion of you gold.
If your pockets are full, a portion of your gold is a huge amount.
If your pockets are almost empty, it's a coin .
I like to have 300 or so gold in the bank for this reason.

 

[Sisiutil]

Someone sent me a PM wondering if this is possible and I honestly don't know.

Can you vassalize yourself to an AI civ? Thereby gaining their protection? Having to surrender a resource or two might be worth it.

 

[willpax]

having money is good, for the reason cds0528 mentionned
having lots of money isn't, because AIs ask for a portion of you gold.
If your pockets are full, a portion of your gold is a huge amount.
If your pockets are almost empty, it's a coin .
I like to have 300 or so gold in the bank for this reason.

Much better said. You want enough to make it cost you around 100 for a +1 diplo modifier, but not much more than that. 300 is also useful for that one emergency promotion should we be forced to go to plan B at some point. It may not matter, but it may buy some time, and money can always be used eventually.

 

[Whitefire]

Someone sent me a PM wondering if this is possible and I honestly don't know.

Can you vassalize yourself to an AI civ? Thereby gaining their protection? Having to surrender a resource or two might be worth it.

This option is turned off.