ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[curtadams]

I'd leave the little island unsettled. You can't afford the maintenence and in addition cities there need to be well-defended or they'll attract assaults.

I'm really not happy with your city placement since you're not making good use of riverine grasslands. There's quite a few that no city can use, but they're one of the strongest benefits to your position. It looks like you founded your expansion cities like early cities (where the goal is to grab resources) and not late cites (where the goal is a large sweep for optimizing cottages or mines long-term) Malatya (sp?) in particular is grossly inferior to a city on the rivermouth but is still close enough to really cramp a city there. You only have one city using the other river and you really should have two. This is particularly bad if you want to shoot for for a cultural victory; I only see two good candidates for legendary cities, Istanbul and Diyarbakar. Too late for now, I guess.

I think you need more workers. The cottage spam should already be apparent by now but I'm not seeing it. That's the point of all these cities; use it.

Allies are useless against invasions. You'll get invaded if somebody sees you as a juicy target, which means you need a decent military. Your allies' attacks on your enemy's homeland, even if effective (unlikely ) it won't do anything to stop the units on ships toward you. So you'll be on your own anyway. All your coastal cities should have good *defensive* units and walls. That'll cut down on the bullseye you have painted on you. NSR is the way to go eventually but I suspect you can't afford it until Liberalism because of your happy caps. I would push Guilds and Gunpowder soon because you're going to need the Jans after all as defensive units. You need Gunpowder before Monty gets Astronomy.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Well, the All Leader Challenge is living up to its name in this one.

Opening the save to find Monty tops in power is always disturbing.

First, on the domestic front, good work settling the rest of the continent. Now, how to pay for it? I'm gonna raise the possibility of doing something I wouldn't normally consider: building Wealth in Ankara & Konya, at least for the time being. I would say to concede the island to the NE. I honestly don't think that island will make much difference as far as whether you'll win. If you're invaded, it'll be hard to defend & you might end up building up a city for the AI to take away from you. Also, I don't think Konya should be building a Hammam. It's way below both caps ATM.

If you switch those two cities to Wealth, science can be bumped up to 50% without running a deficit, which cuts CS from 13 turns to 7 turns, which similar dividends for further research. Once other cities get infrastructure online & cottages mature, those two cities can build their own infrastructure. Or if worse comes to worst, rotate cities building Wealth. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

I'm trying to figure out what the Woodsman II Warrior is doing in the middle of settled land. Might as well move him to garrison somewhere & delete some lower level Warrior to save on upkeep. Or is he to the be the garrison for the island city?

Your cities are all at least 3 below the happiness cap. One of the reasons for getting CS earlier is to irrigate the cities that need it to grow. Then again, if you had gone CS first, you probably wouldn't have Currency yet & can't build Wealth to pay the bills. But then again, going CS first would have allowed you to whip some infrastructure probably. So I'm not sure which approach leaves you coming out ahead. Anyway, now that CS will be coming in, farm as much as needed to get to happiness cap & whip away.

You've got stone, so you might want to build Walls in your coastal cities. They boost Power rating & that could have a deterrent effect on a would-be invader. Walls can buy you time to bring up reinforcements to a city that's had an enemy stack landed next to it. Sometimes, the AI breaks up a stack after a couple of failed attacks & starts pillaging the countryside, so you can pick them off one by one. If your cities were more established, the 50% defense bonus isn't so important, but 50% is nothing to sneeze at in cities with minimal culture.

One more thing on the domestic front, some of your cities are in places where they'll need 2 border pops to cover up all the land that can be settled by an AI. You should probably decide how you want to deal with that & design your gameplan with that in mind. You could switch over to Caste System & run artists to get the required pops & preclude the AI from settling in some nook on your continent that'll result in border clashes. If it's Cyrus or Fred, that's not so bad, but Monty & Ragnar get extra ticked over close borders.

I would seriously consider dedicating a city to keep pumping out military. If you wait until you tech to Machinery & Engineering to start building up your army, it might be too late to offer any resistance to an invasion, which is probably not a matter of if so much as when.

Joining the Buddhist bloc could pay off, as once those guys get to Pleased, you can start begging stuff from three AIs. In fact, switching over to Buddhism would probably get you to Pleased with all three pretty quickly. Ragnar is the most volatile of the three Buddhists, but his favorite civic is HR, so hopefully, that will get him not to attack you.

As far as foreign policy, I think you'd be wise to give in to any demands from Monty or Cathy, until you've had time to build up a credible military. Assuming you switch to Buddhism, I'd tell your co-religionists to beat it if they demand anything, as a -1 penalty from them can be compensated for by the shared religion bonus, over time. Pray that in combination with giving tribute, the favorite civics bonus will get you to Pleased with Cathy too, over time. Then again, I have been attacked by her even at Pleased.

Techwise, I would recommend Feudalism to give you a decent all-around defensive unit. Build Longbows & Catapults. The Longbows should be able to hold down the fort at a city under attack, long enough to bring reinforcements, provided you have three Longbows & Walls. And the Cats will soften up enemy stacks for your offensive-challenged Longbows to take out. Teching to Machinery & Engineering will take too much time. After Feudalism, Paper, Education, Gunpowder. Then, go for Democracy to get Emancipation-powered cottage growth.

Bear in mind too that if you ask an AI to gift you a tech, they can somehow sense how far along you are in researching it. So if you beg them again after some more research on it, they might agree. Being diligent in checking these things could save you valuable time, as you're playing some serious catchup.

Victory conditions, I think is still too early to tell what to gun for. Cultural is certainly possible. Space probably less so, but not out of the question. Diplomacy may also be possible too, depending on how events unfold. I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself #1 in population towards the end of the game, as you've got some good land. Mix in some happy/health resources from your Buddhist buddies & you might find yourself on the UN ballot without ever asking to be on it.

 

[facistal]

I've got to continue to throw my support behind a culture victory here, but I think the order of the day is cottage spam and development. You have to start making this great grassy island work for you. Keep along the 'cottage' tech path.

As far a diplomacy goes I think switching to Buddhism is a no-brainer. You are in HR so you can make up the happy, and you are not running any religous civics. As someone else said, moving to Buddhism is not going to be any worse than staying confusion, and it could potentialy be much better. You might even be able to get the AI's to gift you a tech or two.

Cottage cottage cottage = Culture Victory, I still have faith.

Edit: Also, remember that being in the bottom half of the score card gives you immunity from WFYABTA. Probably won't matter, but something to keep in the back of your head

 

[KMadCandy]

As far as foreign policy, I think you'd be wise to give in to any demands from Monty or Cathy, until you've had time to build up a credible military. Assuming you switch to Buddhism, I'd tell your co-religionists to beat it if they demand anything, as a -1 penalty from them can be compensated for by the shared religion bonus, over time. Pray that in combination with giving tribute, the favorite civics bonus will get you to Pleased with Cathy too, over time. Then again, I have been attacked by her even at Pleased.

i can't stand cathy, she is one of my most hatest leaders. izzy is a fanatic and i think most people hate her more, but at least she has a reason. cathy just gets in these moods. she is the one AI i don't even try to get along with, since it does me no good to even bother. you can bribe her to go to war against somebody she is officially Friendly with. so what is the point of even getting to Friendly? but i know S likes her.

Edit: Also, remember that being in the bottom half of the score card gives you immunity from WFYABTA. Probably won't matter, but something to keep in the back of your head

very good point, i doubt S is used to that situation. it matters sometimes! i use it to my advantage in every deity OCC game i try . it only gives you immunity with the people that are in the bottom half with you, so the chances that you'll get the very best techs aren't that hot, but it doesn't hurt. keep an eye on who's in the bottom half, they'll act a lot more like mansa than you're used to if you're down there too, it's kinda cool.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Read that (excellent) strategy thread carefully. You're only immune to WFYABTA if both of you are in the bottom half of the scoreboard.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

But definitely, Sisiutil is doing better than I expected. And he's right in that religions should be used to boast hapiness, not improve relations. You're not trying to survive as long as you can, you're trying to win. It's like trying to win in a poker game rather than trying to survive until you're second place. Go for the win.

And I also have an unusual request: do you mind listing exactly what techs you have at the moment? Like, all of them? Tech choice is critical at this point.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I doubt it's a grim as it appears, if the the demographics hold any truth. Too bad about the Janissaries, but...c'est le vie, eh? Spam the cottages....and I'd actually advocate some thought of domination. How often do we see you fighting serious wars with more modern units? When was the last time you employed carriers and marines and tanks and the like in a serious war against a near-equal opponent? I don't think I ever have, but in my experience, warring with all those shiny toys is actually quite enjoyable, especially with air superiority. Just a crazy thought....

 

[ratrangerm]

I would research techs that would get you better military options and the best civics options available.

Ideally, you'll want to stick with HR until you can get down the Constitution/Democracy path and then decide whether Representation or Universal Suffrage is the way to go. If you want to run more Scientists, then make the switch to Caste System. Free Religion is the only religious civic you need concern yourself with, unless you think you can pull a Cultural victory off. As always, it's either Mercantilism or Free Market for the economic civic, depending on the situation. And Bureaucracy is what you want as well.

Diplomacy-wise, I don't think it matters what you do with religions, because Monty will start preparing to invade once he's got Astronomy. So you should see if you can push Ragnar into war with Monty. Ragnar will likely never switch to Free Religion since he founded Buddhism, but the other two in the Buddhist block might, so Ragnar is the one you should try to make your friend. The Jewish block could be broken up if Frederick gets Liberalism.

 

[pigswill]

The game is salvageable but its going to take some time.The first stage is actually surviving long enough to begin to catch up. At the moment its likely than any AI will get to astronomy and miltrad before you get to feudalism and build up longbows or machinery for crossbows, especially if you're going for civil service and calendar to improve economy. At least you have a lot of cows to trade.
If any AI lands on your island with half a dozen cavalry then your game is in serious jeapordy. You have nothing to bribe any AI into war on your behalf; even a GM trade mission will need optics which is many turns away. That's why I said no friends is better than one enemy. Keep a low profile and hope for the best.

 

[aelf]

On the diplomatic side, you should convert to Buddhism first. Running HR would placate Catherine and her vassal (though the latter's opinion doesn't count) while Buddhism will make you chummy with that bloc. Can't do much about Monty, though, so be on guard.

 

[JoeBlade]

It seems everyone's bent on Cultural Victory but what about Diplomatic? You should be able to get all buddhists to vote for you. Prioritising biology and gifting it to your newfound buddies would bring in sufficient votes I think.
Perhaps go beat up Monty a bit and grab some of his land as well. No one will mind anyway and you can get a nice mutual struggle bonus out of it too. I'd consider a fake war with Monty for that purpose alone in fact; all you need is a good naval defense to keep him at bay.
I'm not entirely convinced of cultural regardless. You only have two religions and it's rather late to start on such a victory. I suspect an AI may launch well before you get there to be honest.

For the immediate tech issue: cottage up everything (why so few cottages by the way?) and you should catch up nicely. In the mean time you could try begging techs from the other civs. Most of the techs have virtually no value to the AIs since everyone except you have them already, so even with a mere Cautious attitude you may net a few.
I would go settle that smallish island myself and even squeeze in another city to the north of your capital. But again, that's mainly assuming cultural victory is far from in the bag; extra cities would only be useful for space or diplomatic. Still, it'd make a total of about 15 cities which is a very sizeable empire on a standard map.

Finally a small nitpick: why did you put that city to the NW of your capital in its current spot? Sure, you grab the iron but you have a source of iron already and you'd be able to hook the resource after second border pop anyway. If, however, you had put the city 1e you would have traded no less than 5 desert/mountain tiles for workable ones!

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

It seems everyone's bent on Cultural Victory but what about Diplomatic? You should be able to get all buddhists to vote for you.

At this point I think diplomatic is much more viable than cultural. I thought cultural had promise when Christianity, Taoism, and Islam were still on the table, but Sisiutil said all religions have been founded now, so at this point for a cultural win, we'd be either working with just two religions or crossing our fingers and hoping one or two more spread to us. Normally if you want to win by culture with only a few religions, you do it with wonders, but Catherine has seen to it that we won't be doing that. With Montezuma willing to attack anyone whose power isn't twice his own, the slow buildup to victory could be extremely risky.

It's fairly easy to see what needs to be done for a diplomatic win. I'm not saying it will be an easy win -- just that the route to victory is obvious. Clearly Catherine will be your opponent. She leads on score by a substantial margin, she has the land and population lead, plus she has a vassal. There's no way she gives up that lead. Therefore, you need to be friends with all of the Buddhists. If you can afford the happiness ding from losing state religion in most of your cities, I'd strongly consider the conversion to Buddhism. And then spread it fast.

Perhaps go beat up Monty a bit and grab some of his land as well. No one will mind anyway and you can get a nice mutual struggle bonus out of it too. I'd consider a fake war with Monty for that purpose alone in fact; all you need is a good naval defense to keep him at bay.

Mutual war is always a great diplomatic tool, especially when you have a universal enemy like Montezuma; however, at this point we have nothing (and I mean nothing) that we can use as bribes, so the only way it turns into anything besides Montezuma kicking our ass is by luck. This is something that we should remember for later after we (hopefully) catch up a little on technology.

Once you start making some friends, don't forget to go begging for free stuff. You're so far behind that you should be able to get a free outdated technology out of most of the AI's if they like you enough.

 

[Neoclast]

If you can get your relations to pleased with some of the civs then you can ask for some of the old cheap techs. I have done this before when I feel behind on an island start and I was able to get about 5 or so of the basic techs that I had skipped past.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

This game definitely has the potential for a replay of this gem in aelf's first Immortal challenge. Speaking of which, This image from that game is another good reminder of the power of democracy:

[aelf was the Aztecs, and the sudden vertical ascent of his GNP marks where he converted to emancipation.]

Given the internet, your skill at trading, the amount of fairly good land you have settled (just not developed), and the potential to make nice with the Buddhists, I'd say even a space race isn't impossible.

Whatever victory you go for, the biggest asset will be that the AI doesn't focus on a win, like a human can. So while they're eventually going to launch, they'll also divert to pick up techs like flight, mass media, composites, etc., giving you some extra time to cross one finish line or another (hopefully).

 

[oyzar]

you need to focus on growth and economy. Right now you are working almost no cotteages whatsoever. There are some cities you can whip in granaries in. Get the cities to grow as fast as possible and start working those cottages. You have way too many cities focusing on production. This just wont hold if your not gonna go for any sort of military victory. Keep whatever tricks you need to not get invaded then focus on growing all your cities on those cottages. You probably need more workers too.

As other have mentioned just beeling to democracy asap. Thats quite expencive so you need to get more cottages out there and worked asap. You realy shouldnt bother with production in most of your cities as he whip should take care of that problem. Dont let your cities work any title with under 2 food unless you cant avoid it(plains cottages are still better than plains farms...), hopefully most should have a surplus of 3, 4 or more and grow quite rappidly. Both philosophy(bulbed hopefully) and nationalism and constitution should be easy enough to trade away for sevral techs to let you catch up somewhat(hopefully you can get paper and printing press for them at least).

1 or max 2 production cities should be more than enough to cover all your needs in that area...

 

[aelf]

another good reminder of the power of democracy.

I might add that the exhilaration can be quite addictive

 

[Uncle Istvan]

Wow, I'm glad you didn't listen to me and move up a level. Although I think you have a nice chance of pulling out a victory, if you lose, do you replay with Mehmed? I would like to see that, as then there could be a legitimate janissary rush.
Assuming you aren't isolated again...

 

[Nials]

you need to focus on growth and economy. Right now you are working almost no cotteages whatsoever. There are some cities you can whip in granaries in. Get the cities to grow as fast as possible and start working those cottages. You have way too many cities focusing on production. This just wont hold if your not gonna go for any sort of military victory. Keep whatever tricks you need to not get invaded then focus on growing all your cities on those cottages. You probably need more workers too.

As other have mentioned just beeling to democracy asap. Thats quite expencive so you need to get more cottages out there and worked asap. You realy shouldnt bother with production in most of your cities as he whip should take care of that problem. Dont let your cities work any title with under 2 food unless you cant avoid it(plains cottages are still better than plains farms...), hopefully most should have a surplus of 3, 4 or more and grow quite rappidly. Both philosophy(bulbed hopefully) and nationalism and constitution should be easy enough to trade away for sevral techs to let you catch up somewhat(hopefully you can get paper and printing press for them at least).

1 or max 2 production cities should be more than enough to cover all your needs in that area...

I fully agree. Growth and commerce should be the name of the game right now.

Cottages are being built but some cities aren't working as many as they could be, Istanbul is a good example.

Also, you have a couple of cities that can whip Granaries at the moment

Why is Konya building a Hammam? It doesn't need it yet.

With Civil Service right around the corner, I would cottage the heck out of Istanbul. It should be able to contribute a lot of your science in the near future.

I would assign a city or two for military production, use Izmir as a GP farm and focus the rest of your empire on commerce. Hopefully you can start catching up and/or beelining to techs the AI values highly for trade. If you're going for space, Democracy is definitely a priority as others have pointed out, although a bit in the long term. You have neither happiness issues, nor are you running any religious civic so I would convert to Buddhism and hope to be able to beg some techs.

 

[lukep]

hmm.

everybody reccomend cottage, but it is already late and your cities are way too small. In my opinion you need at least +5 food in *each* city (+6 if no granary). +5 is really a magic number that can halve the number of turns required to get a decent size.

Whatever win you choose to pursue, you need your cities to be at least 12-15.
that means farms. Besides +5, there is no real gain, so you can still cottage other tiles. It is too late for a full SE, but the HE road is better, as you get both size and the financial benefit of towns.

and you want to grow now, not when biology kicks in.

btw, first to liberalism was acheivable with a full SE, i missed it for 3 turns and did some very weedy moves, starting from your 580BC save.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

It looks bad, but hope remains. Maybe a Defensive Pact with a strong leader could discourage Monty and his flying circus from attacking you. Are you sure you can pull out a culture victory though? I would recommend a beeline to Fiber Optics for Internet if that isn't unreasonable. The AI could launch a space ship before you even finish the Internet, unless you're confident you can tech fast enough.

BTW, I moved up to Prince last week, and your guides are part of what gave me the confidence to finally move up.